is something wrong with my house wiring

[johnnyfalcon]

yes my first problem was i had a bad switch and it was "end of line wiring"..


i am still anxious to hear a diagnosis of problem 2 and 3.....thank u sir

Hi Johnny I'm in the UK and used to its wiring system as opposed to the USA however I really don't see any problem with what you describe. It is after all a switch wire all be it a black and white cable has been used. I take it that the Back and white cable are connected directly across the switch.
In a perfect world the white cable would be sleeved black also, as it becomes live when the switch is closed.
The ground cable is common - ed with the neutral at the nearest substation and so is really the only cable at ground/neutral potential at your switch position.
It is obvious then that you will always measure 120 volts black wire (live) to earth like wise if you close the switch you must also measure 120 volts to earth .
Strangely if the bulbs are fitted in the lamp holders on your particular circuit and you measure white wire to earth/ground with the switch open you will also measure 120 volts (or very close to it) this being because there is very little volt drop across the lamps. (The multimeter only uses a tiny amount of current ) repeat your test with another lamp in a lamp holder at the switch and I suspect you'll see a very different story kindest regards Duncan

[Ernst]

i realized the 120v switch was at the END or AFTER a light fixture

That makes absolutely no difference of course. You have to think in circuit terms; current flows through the bulb and is interrupted at the switch.

thus giving me this readings..

no volts across black and white wires
120 volts from black to ground
120 volts from white to ground

From this I would infer that the switch is closed and if the light is ok, it should be on.
In (mainland) Europe, we have mostly single phase 240V. That means you have 1 "life" or "hot" wire and one neutral, and there is 240V AV between this and neutral. Neutral is close to ground potential but not necessarily equal.
Any switch should interrupt the phase/hot/life line so that when the switch is off, the light is at neutral potential.
If I look at your situation from this (European) perspective, I would say that when the switch is off, you should measure 120 at one side and (almost) 0 at the other side of the switch. So, since the switch is interrupting the current, there should be 120V across it.
When the switch is on, both sides of the switch are (of course) equal as the switch now connects them. And since the switch is on the phase/hot/life side of the light, both sides should measure 120V to ground.
This matches your readings so therefore I conclude that the switch must be closed.

I don't know what "continuity" measures, so I can't comment on problem 2.

Problem 3

on this orange wire is 240 measuring from black to white
however i got zero volts measuring from black to ground
and zero volts measuring from white to ground

If there is no voltage between ground and either wire, then both must be at the same or ground potential. This is not the case as there is 240V between them.
That leaves only 2 options (IMHO): both phases (black and white) are floating or the ground is floating (=not connected). Both are undesirable.


Ernst.

[johnnyfalcon]

That makes absolutely no difference of course. You have to think in circuit terms; current flows through the bulb and is interrupted at the switch.

From this I would infer that the switch is closed and if the light is ok, it should be on.
In (mainland) Europe, we have mostly single phase 240V. That means you have 1 "life" or "hot" wire and one neutral, and there is 240V AV between this and neutral. Neutral is close to ground potential but not necessarily equal.
Any switch should interrupt the phase/hot/life line so that when the switch is off, the light is at neutral potential.
If I look at your situation from this (European) perspective, I would say that when the switch is off, you should measure 120 at one side and (almost) 0 at the other side of the switch. So, since the switch is interrupting the current, there should be 120V across it.
When the switch is on, both sides of the switch are (of course) equal as the switch now connects them. And since the switch is on the phase/hot/life side of the light, both sides should measure 120V to ground.
This matches your readings so therefore I conclude that the switch must be closed.

I don't know what "continuity" measures, so I can't comment on problem 2.

Problem 3

If there is no voltage between ground and either wire, then both must be at the same or ground potential. This is not the case as there is 240V between them.
That leaves only 2 options (IMHO): both phases (black and white) are floating or the ground is floating (=not connected). Both are undesirable.


Ernst.

can you please use non technical terms since when people do this they will have 6 ways different definitions

i dont see how the black and or white wire could be floating\disconnected if im getting 240 across black and white

i do see how i may have a disconnected ground like you said that makes sense

[johnnyfalcon]

Hi Johnny,

If the readings you are getting are correct you DO have a problem with your house wiring. You need to get a licensed electrician to check out your main panel. From your description it sounds like you have a floating neutral condition. This can be very bad. The neutral wiring is normally connected to ground for a couple of reasons. It keeps the voltage balanced between the 2 phases of your house wiring. It also keeps the neutral side of the house wiring from floating up to a high voltage level above ground.

I have seen houses that caught on fire because of the unbalance in phases caused be the neutral not being grounded. You can also have problems with appliances burning out and light bulbs being overly bright or very dim. If you are having any of those problems you need to get it fixed as soon as possible. I mean like today. Don't put it off. I realize today is Sunday so if you can't get an electrician today be sure and do it first thing tomorrow.

Carroll

when you advocate for a phase balance, what is the tipping point or what is an example of unbalanced phases?

[johnnyfalcon]

That makes absolutely no difference of course. You closed.

I don't know what "continuity" measures, so I can't comment on problem 2.




Ernst.

as far as i know continuity test lets you know if a receptacle or switch will allow current to flow through it.
if the continuity meter stays on 0000 you have continuity

if the numbers change randomly when testin for continuity i have no idea what that means

also you may get a blank screen with continuity test i beleive this means no continuity

[Duncan]

Hi again Johnny a few pictures help a lot, A pictures worth a thousand words they say – consider the 2 gang switch first – The cable entering that switch box on the left hand side (as you look at it) is the mains feed . Therefore always at 120 volts . The other two cables are effectively leaving the switch box and going to each of your outside lights respectively.
You can see that the white cables (neutrals) are all connected together as they should be . The 120 volt mains feed connects to the live side of one switch and is linked to the other switch in order to provide it with a live feed also . Nothing wrong so far !
The opposite side of the switches then go straight to your out side lights. Logical steps will force whatever is wrong here to reveal itself to you , Taking due care with isolation and knowing one light works I would suggest the following as a first step – simply swap the switches over. (don't drop the screws and lose them - like I always seem to manage to)
If the light that did work now doesn't and visa versa you know a faulty switch is the culprit.
(which it sounds like) If that doesn't reveal anything then as you certainly have mains available at the switch position then your problem is outside or with the cable going outside ( which is quite unlikely) although It looks a bit ripe and primitive that wiring but still OK anyway I guess those switches have done a good few thousand operations.
If you don't object to working live and are not overly concerned with a pop if something's amiss outside instead of swapping switches take a short wire and short out the contacts behind the switch that doesn't work whilst someone watches to see if the lamp lights. Again if the lamp lights – faulty switch . If not you must take your search further along the line.
As regards your orange 240 volt cable not enough information to even hazard a guess – yet
any idea where it comes from or its circuit breaker
As Citfta explains there is a condition that sometimes (although very rarely) arises when the main neutral becomes dis-connected somewhere and this allows the voltages 'to float' as in an unbalanced 2 phase (3 phase in Europe) load. It has already been explained as a very dangerous situation.
Fortunately Its also quite difficult to miss because as you turn lights, heaters, cookers and what not on and off voltages go up and down like a yo yo ---- things start 'blowing up ' with gay abandon
I too would suggest expert help if you think that's the case. But of course that is your original problem isn't it ?
You can't find even a half decent tradesman anywhere near you capable of fixing a few lights and sockets. Never mind serious testing.
That being the case I guess you have little option but to proceed carefully using the best information avaliable.
The Building control system across Europe demands that domestic properties be subjected to loop impedance tests and PFC (prospective fault current) tests every five years or so to try and protect against the possibility,
Its perhaps 'over egging' the tart and I certainly don't pretend to know the regulations in the USA however if you do find voltages fluctuating wildly and particularly voltages much higher than they should be then you do need urgent help.
Still as I say its rare and it doesn't sound like a problem you are experiencing. I am of course at a distance but --- It seems like expected wear and tear from old and well used fittings to me. This is a 'very rustic' description but looking at the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvWgVG49fq4
it is possibility of that neutral being disconnected from earth and the transformer center tap that is concerning Citfta - hence the terms 'balanced' and floating voltages
kind regards Duncan

[Ernst]

i dont see how the black and or white wire could be floating\disconnected if im getting 240 across black and white

Imagine a transformer with 2 leads going in to the primary winding and 2 leads going out from the secondary.
Let's say the secondary gives 240V out, that means there will be a 240V potential difference between the two outgoing leads. If you measure the voltage across those two, you'll see 240V.
Since there is no connection from the secondary windings to ground, there is no voltage difference between either lead and ground. To be more precise, if you measure one side, that side becomes ground and therefore your meter will say 0V. If you measure the other side, then that side becomes ground and again your meter will show 0V. If you'd have two meters and measure both at the same time, you will get some reading >0V.
This state of not being connected is called floating, and as citfta already said, both lines can not be trusted in this situation. They may be near ground potential, but they can easily become much higher, which may lead to unpleasant encounters with kitchen appliances, for example.

Clearer now?


Ernst.

[johnnyfalcon]

Imagine a transformer with 2 leads going in to the primary winding and 2 leads going out from the secondary.
Let's say the secondary gives 240V out, that means there will be a 240V potential difference between the two outgoing leads. If you measure the voltage across those two, you'll see 240V.
Since there is no connection from the secondary windings to ground, there is no voltage difference between either lead and ground. To be more precise, if you measure one side, that side becomes ground and therefore your meter will say 0V. If you measure the other side, then that side becomes ground and again your meter will show 0V. If you'd have two meters and measure both at the same time, you will get some reading >0V.
This state of not being connected is called floating, and as citfta already said, both lines can not be trusted in this situation. They may be near ground potential, but they can easily become much higher, which may lead to unpleasant encounters with kitchen appliances, for example.

Clearer now?


Ernst.

yes much clearer, so basically my bare copper wire\ground wire is broken or disconnected somewhere...and thus i suspect any time i get 0volts from black to ground or white to ground i have a "floating connection or floating ground" because of a disconnected ground wire


im taking all the notes i can and have a decent electrical book but u guys and gals really help

9

[johnnyfalcon]

thanks for the explanation friend, these switches are really old. i definitly wont be working live though lol ill switch out old switches with new and see what happens....

as for the orange wire here the general consensus here says my ground is disconnected somewhere i am going to investigate that crawling under the house

Hi again Johnny a few pictures help a lot, A pictures worth a thousand words they say – consider the 2 gang switch first – The cable entering that switch box on the left hand side (as you look at it) is the mains feed . Therefore always at 120 volts . The other two cables are effectively leaving the switch box and going to each of your outside lights respectively.
You can see that the white cables (neutrals) are all connected together as they should be . The 120 volt mains feed connects to the live side of one switch and is linked to the other switch in order to provide it with a live feed also . Nothing wrong so far !
The opposite side of the switches then go straight to your out side lights. Logical steps will force whatever is wrong here to reveal itself to you , Taking due care with isolation and knowing one light works I would suggest the following as a first step – simply swap the switches over. (don't drop the screws and lose them - like I always seem to manage to)
If the light that did work now doesn't and visa versa you know a faulty switch is the culprit.
(which it sounds like) If that doesn't reveal anything then as you certainly have mains available at the switch position then your problem is outside or with the cable going outside ( which is quite unlikely) although It looks a bit ripe and primitive that wiring but still OK anyway I guess those switches have done a good few thousand operations.
If you don't object to working live and are not overly concerned with a pop if something's amiss outside instead of swapping switches take a short wire and short out the contacts behind the switch that doesn't work whilst someone watches to see if the lamp lights. Again if the lamp lights – faulty switch . If not you must take your search further along the line.
As regards your orange 240 volt cable not enough information to even hazard a guess – yet
any idea where it comes from or its circuit breaker
As Citfta explains there is a condition that sometimes (although very rarely) arises when the main neutral becomes dis-connected somewhere and this allows the voltages 'to float' as in an unbalanced 2 phase (3 phase in Europe) load. It has already been explained as a very dangerous situation.
Fortunately Its also quite difficult to miss because as you turn lights, heaters, cookers and what not on and off voltages go up and down like a yo yo ---- things start 'blowing up ' with gay abandon
I too would suggest expert help if you think that's the case. But of course that is your original problem isn't it ?
You can't find even a half decent tradesman anywhere near you capable of fixing a few lights and sockets. Never mind serious testing.
That being the case I guess you have little option but to proceed carefully using the best information avaliable.
The Building control system across Europe demands that domestic properties be subjected to loop impedance tests and PFC (prospective fault current) tests every five years or so to try and protect against the possibility,
Its perhaps 'over egging' the tart and I certainly don't pretend to know the regulations in the USA however if you do find voltages fluctuating wildly and particularly voltages much higher than they should be then you do need urgent help.
Still as I say its rare and it doesn't sound like a problem you are experiencing. I am of course at a distance but --- It seems like expected wear and tear from old and well used fittings to me. This is a 'very rustic' description but looking at the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvWgVG49fq4
it is possibility of that neutral being disconnected from earth and the transformer center tap that is concerning Citfta - hence the terms 'balanced' and floating voltages
kind regards Duncan

[Why-me]

Wiring that is old

Wiring that old should be completely replaced as soon as possible.

Copper corrosion at the neutral plug outlets will cause failure at the connection.
Electrons flow from ground to hot, neutral to hot in this case.

From the pictures, I see wiring from different decades, all outdated.

Your orange wire should not carry 240 volts because the new wiring codes determine that it would be a four wire cable, three covered and one bare.

My best advice for you is this, hire a qualified, licensed electrician to completely replace every foot of wire and outlet or switch.
The breaker box must also be replaced.

[johnnyfalcon]

ok guys n gals i found out by getting under the house that the orange wire pictured above had a disconnected neutral at a bad splice so i fixed that

but now iget a strange voltage.
i get 240v from black to white wich is normal
but i get 60 v from black or white to ground why am i not getting 120???

[Why-me]

Because you will not hire a qualified and certified licensed electrician, I cannot give anymore advice,

If I did you might do something that is not correct and cause your death.

I think more highly of you as a human than killing yourself.

Best regards, Why-me.

[thx1138]

ok guys n gals i found out by getting under the house that the orange wire pictured above had a disconnected neutral at a bad splice so i fixed that

but now iget a strange voltage.
i get 240v from black to white wich is normal
but i get 60 v from black or white to ground why am i not getting 120???

I'll tell you what's happening if you'll promise me one thing: you'll replace that orange wire with one run of wire from the breaker box to the connection with three insulated wires and a bare ground wire of the proper size in a single jacket, i.e. ??/3 w/ground, the ?? being the proper gauge wire for the load.

[johnnyfalcon]

I'll tell you what's happening if you'll promise me one thing: you'll replace that orange wire with one run of wire from the breaker box to the connection with three insulated wires and a bare ground wire of the proper size in a single jacket, i.e. ??/3 w/ground, the ?? being the proper gauge wire for the load.

yep i found the problem years ago someone left a ton of work debree sitting on a wire from a floor job wich must have broke the ground wire in the jacket. what a jackazz the guy that did that!


today i cut the wire very far back with the power shhut off of course duuh

then tested it with my mm and got 240 from black to white and 120 from ground to black or white ... perfect!!!!!!!

so i will be running a new 10 gauge wire

i really appreciate u guys helping me with what u could !!!

i feel like a master electrician! thanks electric brothers

i