Splitting The Positive

[BroMikey]

Okay I dumped those green batteries and now that my
new blue ones are getting charged up I can see how
much more powerful they are by the way the meter won't
move up very quickly while charging. These batteries seem
much better so I will run these instead.

I just bought these batteries off of ebay.

The green ones are small and to much trouble because
I'll be wondering if the capacity will change right in the
middle of a calculation.

But the calculations I have shown are consistence and
show that these batteries offering a 25,000 joule count
can be extended using the split positive diagram to 40,000
joules. Let's see if the new batteries say the same thing.

[Aaron]

discharge

I thought if a battery was rated at 1200mah that meant that
over a 2.5hr time frame I should only get an average of 500ma
per hr? Is that right?

If you want 1.2 ah over 2.5 hours, then discharge is 480ma.

If you want to stick with a 500ma discharge, then that is 2.4 hours or 2 hour 24 minutes.

6 minutes different isn't huge, but for batteries this small, that represents around 5% of the total capacity at the 2.5 hour rate or about 4% of the 2.4 hour rate.

[Aaron]

1.2ah

Here is what the new set looks like and some call it
a 18,600 2 ah and some call it a 5000mah battery
so I don't know I really don't.

The ones I am running right now are green 1200mah
and these are blue 2200mah i guess. Who knows right?

I don't know where people are getting 5000mah - says right there on the battery 2200mah and that is what I would go with.

[BroMikey]

Hi Aaron

It's time to see, all day I have charged these batteries that are
new on a very low spike Brand new 2200mah no excuses
now these batteries will kick butt.

batteries rest at 13 v running under load at 1.6 amps 4.05v
starting 3.45oc this is a single battery under test not 3.

Wowzzee these ones are mighty

Oh yeah I need to tell everybody I made another mistake by
using a 1 amp meter because the nettle was pinned over now
my meter is a large 5amp scale, more leg room, I'll check the
old one again for a minute. maybe I cut off the readings for the
first 30 minute before. I think so because now I am at 3.79v
and the amp draw is still 1.25amps, yeah I did I cut off the
the start up readings on other tests.

BRB with more data comparison, I will get it right.

Ps back now

3.45oc 4.05v at 1.6amps

4.00oc 3.88v at 1.4amps

4.15oc 3.78v at 1.25amps

4.45oc 3.58v at 1amp

1st hour Joule report = 17,784 J

-----------------------------

4.45oc 3.58v at 1amp

5:15oc 3.48v at 800ma

5:45oc 3.36v at 650ma

2nd hour joule report = 10,206 J

----------------------------------

5:45oc 3.36v at 650ma

5:55oc 3.25v at 500ma

3rd hour Joule report lasted 10 minutes = 1140 J

-----------------------------------

Total joule count for single battery is greater than all three
of the old batteries coming to ............

Total Joule count = 28,530 J

Assuming that each battery can produce the result the
total pack energy/joules for this brand new pack is............

New pack Joule count = 85,590 J plus or minus 5% error

Outstandinghumm.......
...........................................

[BroMikey]

My new graph is here thanks Mike I am patting myself
on the back. Got to keep the faith

This way I can always look back on the numbers to be sure.

These batteries pack quite a wallup

I guess you were oh so right Aaron those old batteries are a joke

I charged the old ones back up and they only 1050ma max.


................---------------------

[BroMikey]

The New Batteries and the tally coming in now BRB

[Aaron]

constant voltage?

My new graph is here thanks Mike I am patting myself
on the back. Got to keep the faith

This way I can always look back on the numbers to be sure.

These batteries pack quite a wallup

I guess you were oh so right Aaron those old batteries are a joke

I charged the old ones back up and they only 1050ma max.


................---------------------

That's interesting - although they beat your old batteries, your graph shows that they are not constant voltage batteries.

Here is a graph of lifepo4 vs lead acid.




Do you know of the regular lithiums to be constant voltage batts?

[BroMikey]

The thing I understand about it is this. Laptops for instance
use these batteries and all packs have an inverter built into
it for charging and somewhere it also has another inverter/converter
that maintains the correct voltage from the ever diminishing
voltage coming from the batteries.

All devices use switchmode to keep a steady output
off the batteries. Just like an AC inverter does with the
12v batteries.

I got more data coming now

so far it looks good 28,000
+24,000
+13000
Something close and the run batteries are still charged

You are right Aaron about the curve BRB and I'll say something

[BroMikey]

Aaron to answer you

the curve you see me using is way to high of a discharge rate.
I am doing that to save alittle time. Under normal conditions
packs for laptops are ganged together in sets of 3's. If you load
these batteries properly where they are designed the curve
flattens out more instead of a downward crashing.

I am seeing the cool thing about these batteries it wherever
you load them you get the same amount out.

Each 2200mah battery should not be loaded beyond a C3 rate
maximum and a C4 rate would be best, I am runing a C1.5

At one point in the split pos. graph it draws 2.2amps crazy to much.

Updating curve now BRB

[BroMikey]

Updated Chart and a tally of Joules

So far 72,050 Joules has been run thru the light using the
same 3 batteries as was used to run the light conventionally.

Conventional running shows that no more than 85,590 Joules
are all that is made available to run the light using these
same batteries in parallel. See the chart above that says
Conventional Discharge and there you will see the value of
28,530 Joules for a single battery.

The goal in this experiment is to see if I can run the light and
use the energy to charge battery C at the same time. This test
still throws away energy when I discharge battery C normally
without collecting thru the use of the split positive diagram.

Many other possibilities may exist to increase recovery of
energy beyond this test. In this test I am throwing away
half of the available energy to be captured.

--------------------------

[Aaron]

discharge curve

Ok, so you're just overdoing the load.

But the graph I quoted shows a 2.2ah battery but at the bottom you show 3ah / 5 hours = 600ma draw, which should be 440ma for the 2.2ah for a 5 hour discharge. Or is the 3ah reference unrelated to that graph?

Sorry, trying to keep up with what you're doing.

At a 4 hour discharge, would be interesting to see the difference in the discharge curve.

What you really need is a CBA-IV computerized battery analyzer. You can apply a constant current load and it will give you exactly what the battery gives you at the designated cut off voltage. It will automate most of what you're doing, give you graphs, etc... but they are about $200. Well worth it though - has saved me countless hours on recording both charge and discharge graphs.

[BroMikey]

Ok, so you're just overdoing the load.

Yes overloading destructive crash and burn to make ready
for the right tests such as this one. This one is borderline
at 550ma per battery a C3 rate is abusive not what we were
taught by John Bedini
The way it should work is that you must give time for nature
to work providing a need when conditions are setup and calling.
Other longer duration tests have shown better results.

More fun later. Here is what it should be, well not exactly
but a whole lot closer, next time I will go down to the 200-300ma
range. I will be thorough in my testing.

This test is 3 batteries in parallel 2200ma each. I take that back
on the C3 rate it is a C7 ? let's see. 2200 X 3 = 6600ma x .7 =
4620 or we say 5000ma which would mean at 500ma we could
run for 10 hrs, I doubt it but maybe. C10 rate is more like it.


I pulled 2.2amps off the split positive setup and wasted the energy
going to the charge battery. For a single battery not 3 in parallel.

[BroMikey]

Sorry, trying to keep up with what you're doing.

I completely understand, I am still getting it together.

I think putting a resistor in line till amp level drop at midway
will give the charge battery time to take on energy, like I said
running 1.6 amp or 2.2amps into a single battery is wasteful.

The laptop battery monitors look cool.

That way you can walk away and when you come back the
numbers are all crunch in for you. I think sound cards use to
be something people had software written for back 20years.

[BroMikey]

I completely understand, I am still getting it together.

I think putting a resistor in line till amp level drop at midway
will give the charge battery time to take on energy, like I said
running 1.6 amp or 2.2amps into a single battery is wasteful.

The laptop battery monitors look cool.

That way you can walk away and when you come back the
numbers are all crunch in for you. I think sound cards use to
be something people had software written for back 20years.

Okay there it is a half decent done job with no missing details.

3 batteries at 2200ma each X 3 = 6600ma X 70% =4620 so say
500ma capacity, we will look at and see what the actual is.

More coming. This is just the start.

CONVENTIONAL DISCHARGE CURVE BASELINE C5-C10 rate?

[BroMikey]

It was originally fictitiously calculated to be a figure of
85,700 J but that figure was off. I ran 1 battery and then
multiplied by 3 batteries so it is important to do the actual
testing.

The real figure comes to 81,715 Joules.

These values listed on the diagram are based of the data
collected each hour and an average is arived upon for each
hour plus joule count for each hour. A small price to pay to
find out if extra energy real does exist using a split positive
diagram verses the conventional.

Contentional Disharge baseline 3 parallel 2200ma batteries.
7:00oc 4.10v at 1600ma
8:00oc 3.88v at 1400ma
9:00oc 3.72v at 1150ma
10:00oc 3.61 at 1000
11:00oc 3.53v at 850ma
12:00oc 3.44v at 750ma
1:00oc 3.09v at 375ma

This diagram establishes a base line for 3 lithium batteries
that are rated at 2200mah for a combined rating of 6600mah

Also I am now getting to the process of the actual C rating
for each run. Since this run took 6 hours, you tell me.

I will also continue to draw to your attention as instructed
by John Bedini concerning nature and how nature can fight
you when you go against what should be done.

As a for instance it should be noted that the normal destructive
discharges like in this diagram care only slightly with lithium
batteries when it comes to discharging them at a C2 or C3 or C5
because they are designed so that very little resistance is offered
regardless.

While I am sure energy can be saved at a slower discharge we
might say that the saving would be considered negligible. However
when charging these same batteries another set of rules exist.

We have become so use to forcibly discharging batteries and the
same for charging and wonder why the batteries must be put
in the trash in less than a year.

It takes time to charge a battery properly and like you posted
Aaron there is an 80% or 70% figure with speed charging which
means as batteries are forced to charge in 2 hrs they never really
reach their Max values plus huge amounts of wasted energy in
the process.

The goal here is to eliminate the resistance as much as possible
and give our time to the process at hand. Therefore we must
take a look at this discharge.

A C6 rate in which an unbridled startup avalanche of runaway
energy that is clearly not a controlled run. Huge amounts of power
to start then ever diminishing. There is nothing constant here.

This destructive discharge is the normal.

At startup each battery is hurled into a C2.5 rate I say 2.5 for this
reason. Each battery will only give 70% of the full max rating
so 2200mah x by .7 = 1540mah actual . On startup the pack is
demanded to produce 1800ma that quickly goes away with in a
few minutes and settles at around 1600ma.

That power to me is wasted. Each battery 1540mah actual is
demanded to give 600ma each. If I charge these same batteries
with spike mode low and long hours I can get them to pull nearly
2000ma. That power lasts for several minutes, one time almost
15 minutes.

So because there is no limiting factor in my circuit energy will be
thrown out wildly. Now on to the next thought.

The next consideration after having concluded that the tests
might turn out better results with limits what values do I choose?

The answer comes based on the split positive diagram. This circuit
only uses a single battery (Not 3 totally 6600mah) rated at the
actual value of 1540mah. All series connected batteries are rated at
1540mah two are run batteries and "C" battery charges.

The "C-10" rate would come to 150ma draw and by the way laptops
use 3 of these batteries in parallel and normally run a C3 rate and
a charging adapter around 1.5amps average with the max only
occurring for a few minutes. Think it over and buy more batteries next
year because they are always hot.