Split Positive Boost Charger

[BroMikey]

Hi mike, thanks, i look forward to results of your build.
I tested the new inverter, using 24 volts of nimh batteries as input, splitting the positives, with the 12 volt tractor battery in charge position.
I could only get about 4 minutes of run time, using a 6 watt led bulb as a load off the inverter.
Half of that time, was with the low voltage beep going on the inverter, which kicks in at 10.8 volts, then shuts down at 10.5 volts.
I like this inverter better, the fan only kicks in at very high loads, previous inverter fan was on all the time.
So, with another 12 volt battery in parallel, this would run much longer, or just discharge the charge battery more, so it doesn't rise as quickly.
I definitely see the reason for a large charge battery bank and the boost converter circuit would help also.
peace love light

Yes so true on sizing

When I began a study of John Bedini's work I learned to
understand the quanity of joules found in any battery.

One day I became excited that I got my hands on very
large batteries just over 100 ah each. To make a long story
short these 100 ah batteries were something like 3X better
than the cheapo flooded cells found at the nearby Wal-Mart
called marine batteries. Some have used these for trolling
and after all they were 125 ah, right?

Wrong they ended up to calculate out to about 30ah
batteries. The big square deep cycles I have say 100 ah
these only gave me the full amp hour rating if a stayed
under 1.5 amps of draw.

Even the best batteries work like this on the numbers.

This is why John Bedini taught us his battery tech. If
you have a functioning SG osc of any kind that can
switch to Genmode you can revive batteries that set around
because lets face it, it is hard to charge every battery
all day for the rest of your life.

So if you buy brand new and let them set or pump them
full of hot raw current they will be toast soon anyway.

If you have piles of cash laying around buy brand new ones.

Or go to the yards and buy scrap. I use ALUM not acid
and have thousands of dollars of batteries I got for nearly
free.

Well not free, I had to buy them at scrap prices and sort thru
2 to 1 sometimes that failed plus the powerful Energizers
with cap dumps.

Nimh or lithium batteries will fool you too. One day they seem
fully charged and powerful and the next day they won't work
ever again.

[SkyWatcher]

Hi mike, thanks for sharing the information, where would one find these used large lead acid batteries for cheap, thanks.

Well, since it will be a little bit till i get a couple more flooded lead acid batteries, i decided to add 2 cells to my nimh battery pack, this makes it a 20 cell pack or 27 volts fully charged standing voltage.
This should work out nicely, as the charge battery climbs and primary battery drops, it will stay within operating voltage range of the inverter.
Now it should be able to run the system much longer and study some results.
peace love light

[BroMikey]

Any recycle scrap yard takes batteries for the precious
metals "LEAD" Here is what people drop off that you are
looking for.

1) Wheel Chair Batteries

2) Kiddy car scooter batteries

3) Office UPS backup batteries

Just a few but these burn up all the fluid in 1 year on
that hot raw dc current. Thanks to John B. I can go to
any bone yard and paid the person for their lead and maybe
a small profit for them.

I buy a wheel chair battery for $2 add Alum and use the SG OSC
spikes to clean it up for an hour then flip the switch to
GenMode and 65 percent recovery turn over.

One wheel chair battery is 30ah-50ah and they are half the
size of those truck battery things that are rated at 125 ah
but only put out 30ah.

You will learn to unseal the sealed batteries.

Scrap metal yards are all different so find a few and ask
if they will sell you any scrap lead batteries. Some will
act like you are an axe murderer for asking and others will
welcome your request.

You have to find a yard where the people are sane.

I go out into the sticks away from the big cities, there are
scrap yards every 10-15 miles across the planet.

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, Hi mike, thanks for the information, will have to do some research into where scrap yards might be in this area.
I made a test last night with this setup.
Using the 20 cell nimh pack as primary, 28 volts standing voltage and tapers off through test.
12 volt flooded lead acid as charge battery, with 12 volt inverter splitting the positives.
I was able to run the system for just over an hour, with 6 watt led bulb as load plugged into inverter.
Toward the tail end, the low voltage alarm was going on the inverter.
I noted the standing voltage on the 12 volt lead acid battery, before starting that test.
I let the system rest for awhile, then i hooked up inverter, with same led bulb load, directly to the 12 volt battery.
This phase of the test, ran the inverter with led bulb for the same duration, just over an hour.
The voltage on the 12 volt battery has come up to just about the same voltage as before the test was started.
I am also charging up the nimh battery pack and i know how much amp hours was "used", charger has lcd readout.
The led bulb is drawing more power from the inverter, probably double, compared to grid power, power factor is thrown off with modified sine wave.
Inverter draws a certain amount and a little more when fan goes on and off.
And when we also factor in the energy the 12 volt charge battery received and any other losses, it is virtually what was drained from the nimh battery pack.
Of course, we include the fact, that on second phase of test, the inverter ran the led bulb yet again, for an equal amount of time.

I have some ideas brewing in me head today.
My idea is to use one primary 12 volt battery and one 12 volt battery for the charge position.
These will be swapped, back and forth, when needed.
A flip flop inverter circuit will be powered by primary only.
Transformer used in this circuit, will output 28 or so dc volts, using full wave bridge.
An off the shelf inverter will then spilt the positives off this transformer secondary output, into the 12 volt battery charge position.
When potential difference is too low for inverter or a designed in switch limit is engaged, the primary battery and charge battery, will be swapped, to continue cycle.
Let me know what you think about this idea.
peace love light

[SkyWatcher]

Clarification

Hi folks, I just wanted to clarify what i see happening and it seems to agree with turion and others perspective.
The inverter that is splitting the positives and it's load and losses, accounts for half of what was used from the nimh primary battery pack.
The other half, was used to charge the 12 volt battery in the charge position.
So, when we then connect the inverter directly to the 12 volt battery and then power a similar load as was used during the split positive phase, that load is essentially powered for free and for the same duration.
My idea, though probably similar to others, just different in design, is to then take that juice in that charged battery and place it in another split positive circuit, so we keep the cycle going.
So with the basic system, we have.
+1 = (A) inverter+load.
+1 = (B) 12 volt battery is charged.
+1 = (C) 12 volt battery then powers a load.
-2 = (D) primary battery was drained by A+B
Total remaining in basic system = C or +1
peace love light

[SkyWatcher]

Bob French variant

Hi folks, I am testing out something different for the moment, it is based off Bob French's idea, the 1 battery split positive system.
It's not exactly the same, as i don't have the parts needed to build his at the moment.
So i am using the cen-tech inverter, plugged directly into the 12 volt tractor battery.
Then, i have a medium size transformer plugged into the inverter.
This transformers secondary then outputs 24 or so volts ac.
Then a full wave bridge is used and 12 volt-4 watt yard bulb is in-line with the single primary 12 volt battery.
So far, i'm finding some kind of balanced sweet spot, at around 12.20 volts, where it just seems to want to sit.
Have to go out soon, i will continue testing when i get home.
It is similar to this circuit.

peace love light

[Matthew Jones]

You cannot charge and discharge a battery at the same time. Add a cap.

Matt

[BroMikey]

Hey Sky

That will have to do for now, this is conventional mode
where no positive is being split but you may get a savings
due to the fact you are pulsing the motor instead of sending
raw direct current to the load.

But I guess I see what Matt and you are saying or Bob F.
is that by pulsing of a converter you hope to reflect some
energy back to the battery? So running down the battery and
collecting a reflected pulse back to the battery? Sounds
like the first SG bike wheel setup. I'll have to go back and
look to see if the old SG bike wheel had a cap but it used
a 9v batteries that may have acted as a cap.

I heard Matt say put a cap and I was thinking this myself
on all of my battery connections where circuits pulse and or
motors pulsing/switching to collect the splash back.

Either way keep at it, I think this experiment is going to
grow into something much bigger.

I agree, put a capacitor in fact I was thinking about replacing
batteries with SUPERCAPS on a real small version of these
split pos.......... setups to do away with the battery anomalies.

I can't be the only one who thought of that.

It was over 100 today I am dead.

[SkyWatcher]

Hi matt, hi mike, ok, i'll put one of the 1.5 farad 12 volt super capacitors i have, in parallel with the battery.
It was a high of 80 here in illinois today and fairly low humidity, guess the heat wave missed us today at least.

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, ok, i am not seeing much better results, so i am making a different test.
This time, same 20 cell nimh battery pack, with cen-tech inverter splitting positives, into 12 volt charge battery.
But this time, the transformer is plugged into an inverter output plug.
The transformer 24 volt secondary output, has full wave bridge to make dc, then 12 volt-4 watt yard bulb in-line with 12 volt charge battery.
This way, we have a bright bulb being lighted and splitting the positives again.
Where as, with the basic setup or my previous tests, i just powered a 6 watt led bulb off the inverter and did not reclaim any of that juice into a battery or as mike says, threw it to ground.
I need to discharge the 12 volt battery more for this test, because just now, i was only able to run the system for about 8 minutes, before low voltage alarm went off, 12 volt battery voltage was rising too quick, since it has almost a full charge already.
Will update when new test can be made.
peace love light
Edit: do you see what i see, even with this simple setup.
If we hook another transformer to the other inverter output plug and into the same 12 volt charge battery, this really is starting to look like a super split positive boost charger.
All that extra juice drawn by the transformers does, is boost the current drawn by the inverter, which just chargers our charge battery that much quicker.

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, here is the circuit i'm currently testing, cute part pics included, hehe.
peace love light

[bobfrench@fastmail.fm]

Skywatcher,

I noticed my drawing there and I just wanted to say that I did run the motor that way and it shows that you can take the the HV+ to run the motor then take the out of the motor to the low voltage + of the input to the Boost Module. but in that drawing there is no splitting the positive. I haven't tried adding the cap like Matt said. That sounds interesting. He understands a lot more than I do.

So you can run the Boost Module across the positives (splitting the positives) and do the same thing, run back to the input if the Boost Module is turned up to give the potential difference if needed some time. I haven't found an advantage there yet, I just found that it worked.

Also, I had checked out the Cen-Tech inverters at Harbor Freight and found that they all did bad continuity through the negatives, so I didn't buy one there. I got a 500W Stanley at Walmart.

I've had a bad time trying to get on the forum this past week because I tried changing my e-mail address and it got all messed up.

Bob

[SkyWatcher]

Hi bob, thanks for the reply and information.
The cen-tech 400 watt continuous/800 watt peak inverter i have, does NOT have continuity between the negative AC (neutral) larger prong on left and the negative DC input.
Is it possible they have changed something or updated their inverters, since you checked them.
My inverter item number is #61479
peace love light
Oh, by the way, what do you think of the latest circuit drawing i posted

I also want to add something, compared to the previous setup, where the led bulb was powered by inverter and throwing its own juice to its own ground loop, this setup was only running for 17 minutes and charged the 12 volt battery back up very quickly.
I'm sure you folks can figure out what i mean.

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, after seeing bromikey is trying to see how efficient his system is, i am doing something similar.
When running the cen-tech inverter in split positive mode, i am finding, that if i just run an led bulb off the inverter output, it is not nearly as efficient as just running the transformer off an inverter output plug, splitting positive through 12 volt yard bulb and into 12 volt charge battery.
Part of this difference, could be because the inverter with led bulb is exceeding the batteries ability to take the charge efficiently, c/20 rate and since the led bulb isn't splitting the positive in anyway, back to the charge battery.
So just now, i had the idea to put the 6 watt led bulb in-line with the transformer primary coil and also using the full wave bridge off 24 volt secondary through 12 volt yard bulb, into 12 volt charge battery.
We will see how this works out.
peace love light
edit: oh and another i thing i see, make sure the connection between the primary and charge battery split positive, is low resistance wire, those cheap clip leads drop so much voltage, that the potential difference is lost very early in tests, i'm already getting double the run time so far.

[bobfrench@fastmail.fm]

Skywatcher,

Glad to hear the Cen-Tech is good. BTW, have you guys been watching what Matt Jones has been leading the guys in the Basic Free Energy Device thread in? He has shown how to tune your Boost Module so that the whole system works. He's absolutely right on. I did what he said the last three days and once I got it tuned, my system runs hours on end until I shut it off with the Primaries holding steady and the charge battery going up. My charge battery is over 15V and I don't even have to adjust the Boost Module anymore. I had to adjust it every hour until the charge battery got this high and quit going up so fast. I posted my first successful run there.

Bob