BEMF current reversal.

[Sputins]

Contra-flow?

I like the Leedskalin attachment by john_g and the rubber band analogy.

It is interesting, one can say we have a Positive and Negative voltage (referenced to ground) but we almost never say we have a Positive or Negative current.

Electron current is generally seen or accepted as going one way only, unidirectional, from Negative to Positive.

Here’s a little experiment to try right now - (How to tell the difference between positive and negative (without a multimeter)):

Take a standard plug-pack AC to DC transformer, of say 10 or 12V DC or so. (The older transformer kind, not the switch mode types). Wet you thumb and index finger and hold the negative lead between them… Okay, with the other hand take the positive wire and touch your face with it, (your nose, under your eye, forehead or chin).

– You feel nothing right?

Okay, swap the wires over - now hold the positive wire...

Now touch your face again (same places) with the negative wire…

What do you feel?? …Why??

Have fun tormenting and puzzling your friends with this one.


?? Is there a form of electric flux where direction is opposite to the electron, a contra-flow? - If there is, we don’t or can’t detect it, we don’t use it…

What truly is a negative voltage, what truly is a negative current?

[Dave45]

I like the Leedskalin attachment by john_g and the rubber band analogy.

It is interesting, one can say we have a Positive and Negative voltage (referenced to ground) but we almost never say we have a Positive or Negative current.

Electron current is generally seen or accepted as going one way only, unidirectional, from Negative to Positive.

Here’s a little experiment to try right now - (How to tell the difference between positive and negative (without a multimeter)):

Take a standard plug-pack AC to DC transformer, of say 10 or 12V DC or so. (The older transformer kind, not the switch mode types). Wet you thumb and index finger and hold the negative lead between them… Okay, with the other hand take the positive wire and touch your face with it, (your nose, under your eye, forehead or chin).

– You feel nothing right?

Okay, swap the wires over - now hold the positive wire...

Now touch your face again (same places) with the negative wire…

What do you feel?? …Why??

Have fun tormenting and puzzling your friends with this one.


?? Is there a form of electric flux where direction is opposite to the electron, a contra-flow? - If there is, we don’t or can’t detect it, we don’t use it…

What truly is a negative voltage, what truly is a negative current?

If neg electrons flow from neg to pos and current flows from pos to neg then current is a product of electron flow.

[Dave45]

A study of the buck converter is eye opening, when the switch is off the current doesnt run to ground but cycles through the circuit, if it (current) was a product of the battery it would run straight to ground.

There is an animation on this page that illustrates the current flow in a buck converter. Buck Converters
This site also has a page on boost converters, cool site.

[citfta]

Great animation Dave45! It clearly shows that the current does NOT reverse during the discharge of the coil. THANKS for posting that. The scope shot posted earlier in this thread also clearly shows the current dropping to zero when the coil discharges. It does NOT show the current reversing. As has been explained many times on a lot of forums the voltage appears to change direction because during discharge the coil becomes the source and not the load. So the voltage changes polarity but the current continues to flow in the same direction until the coil is discharged.

[Dave45]

Yes voltage changing direction is also an indication that its the eddy currents that collapse when the magnetic field is turned off. Eddy currents create a magnetic field opposite the magnetic field that created them.

We can also see now how a coil passing a magnet steals energy from the magnet,

[Dave45]

If we take an iron rod an place it on the end of a magnet the magnetic field is expanded to include the iron rod and the iron rod is also engulfed in the magnets eddy currents, when the two are separated the eddy currents collapse and if a coil is wound on the iron rod the eddy currents collapse into the coil windings.

Thats how a coil takes energy from a magnet, the magnet draws energy from the ambient to replenish itself.

[OrionLightShip]

As has been explained many times on a lot of forums the voltage appears to change direction because during discharge the coil becomes the source and not the load. So the voltage changes polarity but the current continues to flow in the same direction until the coil is discharged.

Once again, your intelligence shines through!
This is a simple case of sign convention people don't get.
The conventional current flow (positive, so as to ignore those pesky electrons) flows in the same direction, as the coil switches from load to source as you mention above.

Richie Burnett also shows this to be the case in his description of dc resonant charging.

I think perhaps people get confused because they use mosfets that switch off and then use a diode to redirect the positive current back into the source battery. You can just as easily direct that positive current into the drain. That operation has nothing to do with the current flowing from a coil which is ALWAYS in the same direction.

[Allen Burgess]

Current reversal.

@OrionLightShip,

John g demonstrates conclusively that the addition of ferrite cores, multiple windings and magnets reverses the direction of back spike current, so the use of "always" tends to be pedantic and misleading. There are legitimate exceptions to Cifta's hard and fast rule.

[Allen Burgess]

Woopyjump's video

Woopyjump's primary and hi-voltage seconday power coils both have ferrite U cores. Woopyjump demonstrates the nullification effect of disconnecting the capacitor. Question; What role does the capacitor really play in the circuit? Answer; Double reversing the primary's original reversed current BEMF so the primary and secondary power coil polarities match.

[Allen Burgess]

Buck converter animation.

Great animation Dave45! It clearly shows that the current does NOT reverse during the discharge of the coil. THANKS for posting that. The scope shot posted earlier in this thread also clearly shows the current dropping to zero when the coil discharges. It does NOT show the current reversing. As has been explained many times on a lot of forums the voltage appears to change direction because during discharge the coil becomes the source and not the load. So the voltage changes polarity but the current continues to flow in the same direction until the coil is discharged.

The problem with this animation is that it depicts a solenoid coil wrapped around an air core. The Woopyjump coil under discussion has a laminated ferrite U core that's strongly influenced by spinning magnets. The ferrite U core retains a powerful magnetic flux field that's changing and requires the application of both Faraday's and Lenz's laws to determine the actual direction of BEMF current flow from the coil.

[Allen Burgess]

Igor's "Reed Switch Spinner ll".

Comment from Igor's "Reed Switch Spinner ll":

neuthral4 years ago

"Wow, i replicated this circuit with 2 x AA's (reading about 1volt together), ferrite choke coil and 3 leds, that sucker has been running the whole night".

Igor's schematic shows one air core coil electrode connected to the ground, the other to the positive pole of the battery through a Reed switch. An LED is connected to both Reed switch electrodes with the cathode facing the positive pole. He's spinning a diametric neo sphere. Bistander called his circuit a "mess".

When the Reed switch opens, the backspike cannot travel accross the switch, and must pass through the reverse biased LED to the battery. The BEMF current cant be traveling in the same direction, or it would run into the ground.

What's the difference between "Igor's circuit" and the "Buck Coverter Animation"? Why dosen't the current run into the ground in the animation, but continue to loop through the circuit?

What effect does Igor's spinning magnet have on the apparent reverse direction of BEMF? The magnet spinner influences the coil with the same polarity bias every time the Reed Swtch opens. How does Lenz's law effect the powet coil polarity at this moment? How unfair is it to compare the overly simplistic "Buck Coverter animation" to a strong Lenz effect circuit like Igor's? Is it possible the BEMF is "Double Reversing" in Igor's video?

I'm reposting Igor's video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWvI7T7h3tk

[bistander]

Spelling

Why dosen't the current run into the ground in...

Interesting spelling error.

[bistander]

Repost of #2

Another important point is that Mr."Know-it-All Tinman" consistently misspells the verb "does" as the medical term "dose"; Something else that has helped keep everyone completely bamboozled.
Attachment: http://www.energeticforum.com/attach...53_p_v8_aa-jpg

Just for the record.

[bistander]

Mess

Bistander called his circuit a "mess".

I don't think this guy knows what he's doing. If he is attempting to freewheel through the LED, he's located it incorrectly.

bi

Maybe you missed this the first time.

bi

[Allen Burgess]

Spelling error

@bistander,

Tinman's contagious and needs to be quarantined!