Kromrey Disclosure! Bedini SG - Beyond the Advanced Handbook by Peter Lindemann

[JohnStone]

Here is a better pic from Kromerey converter:
It originates from this French site.

[FRANKLIN]

Hi Peter.
I have a doubt, maybe you could help me.
this last book of the bedini series, shows how to build the kromrey machine but with overunity? maybe my question is very basic but I am engineer in agronomy not in electronics but I am interested in this field and I want to buy the book but maybe you could help me with this question first.. thanks a lot and you are doing a great job!

[Aaron]

Kromrey

Hi Peter.
I have a doubt, maybe you could help me.
this last book of the bedini series, shows how to build the kromrey machine but with overunity? maybe my question is very basic but I am engineer in agronomy not in electronics but I am interested in this field and I want to buy the book but maybe you could help me with this question first.. thanks a lot and you are doing a great job!

Franklin, Peter announced his retirement so not sure if he will respond.

The Advanced book showed a lot of the Kromrey data and details, but it is this new presentation of his that he demonstrates John's Kromrey machine and explains what has never been revealed about it so you are getting new info.

[Sputins]

Goofy

I recently purchased the Bedini SG – Beyond the Advanced Handbook – Lecture (video) by Peter Lindermann.

I also thought it was a very good lecture indeed. – Thank you Peter.

I bought it mainly for the Kromrey Converter information that was disclosed relating to the coil winding method.

So without spoiling the lecture’s disclosed information too much, there is the particular winding method or configuration of the rotating coils and also the use of a non-ferrous shaft, (most already know that part). So you wind the coils so that it’s “Goofy”.

So given the information from the original Bedini video and the info Peter has now provided (in his last and final) lecture, has anyone since the release of this lecture, managed to obtain any interesting results from the Kromrey Converter?

I thought I’d have a crack at building Kromrey device myself, given the information now available…

The idea of the stators being permanent magnets (as Bedini used) makes for a simpler build, but the use of electro-magnetic stators might have additional advantages since then the field strength of the stator could be varied from 0 to 100% with the use of PWM to the stator coils…

Any further progress, info or tips to share anyone?

[Aaron]

Kromrey Generator

I posted a video of the Kromrey in the blog:

Kromrey Generator Speeds Up When Shorted Out - A & P Electronic Media

[serendipitor]

Some more thoughts on windings

Below are a few thoughts based on what I have seen so far with my experiments. Aaron has made clear the pole polarities on JB's unit, the same as the German unit from Jens Vogler, are as shown in fig. 2 of the patent.

However, the rotor windings as shown in fig. 5 and fig. 6, are of differing phase. Fig. 5 is phase adding, fig. 6 is phase opposing, on each side. Whether this is deliberate obfuscation or just an error, I can't say. Given the ambiguity of the poles and rotors, there are 4 possible layouts:

1. Stator poles as in fig. 2, rotor winds as in fig 5.
2. Stator poles as in fig. 2, rotor winds as in fig. 6
3. Stator poles as in fig. 6, rotor winds as in fig 5.
4. Stator poles as in fig 6. rotor winds as in fig. 6.

From the vague info given in the Energy from the Vacuum interview on the Kromrey, JB made it seem that option 1 was what he was using, and I built my tests on that plan.

This gives, in essence, a pair of salient pole generators connected in series, such that their voltages are equal and opposite, and hence cancel so that no current can flow that would generate any form of Lenz law reaction.

To review the conventional method, the first attached photo is the waveform of just one half of my generator. There are two positive and two negative peaks in each rotation, with the voltage peak given by dphi/dt. This conventional, Lenz's law limited waveform is equal and opposite to the other half of the generator.

The second photo is a sketch of the waveform that is generated by my speculative take on full Kromrey induction based on comments in the patent, with the salient pole induction in dotted line for comparison. The maximum of the Kromrey waveform will be close to the point where the rotors and stator are in register. This results in one positive and one negative peak per rotation. The voltages are not to scale, and the Kromrey output voltage is less than either side's salient pole induction.

If there is no conventional induction happening, the question is where is the voltage coming from? PL has mentioned the development of radial forces to create current flow, but I am not sure. Kromrey thought in terms of a gravitational linkage, which ties in with the idea of a rotating inertial frame.

But that idea would result in voltage proportional to rotation speed I would think, and would also seem to require high (relativistic?) rpms. The test data shows a flat top output once ~600 rpm is reached. This saturation effect says that something else is responsible, IMHO.

The third photo is my unit. I am using transformer laminations as called for in the patent. Also, I have placed the permanent magnets directly in the air gap, as opposed to the patent, which shows significantly large pole pieces. More on this below.

My first set of windings were based again on the EFTV interview data mentioned above, where I wound 50 turns of #24 wire on each of the four rotor sections. I then placed 2 more layers of 50 turns on top of those, and the 3 layers were connected in parallel. (N.B. This is not the same as trifilar.) The windings started at one end and continued to the other end and stopped there. This resulted in a waveform similar to my sketch, but of low peak voltage. It was not enough to run any load, but it did show the saturation effect where the voltage did not increase once a low rpm had been reached.

I then tried a more conventional winding, where each rotor section had ~250 turns, which were wound continuously back and forth, up and down the form. This resulted in absolutely no output beyond a slight bit of distortion around zero, due to unequal inductions on each side.

So it looks to me that the rotor windings must be made in one direction only, which indicates something quite different from flux linkages is happening. No going back and forth as in a normal coil. But this makes it difficult to get much voltage output. JB used thin wire and 3 layers for that reason. He said it took about a year to get it right. I believe it. It is very tedious going, doing this by hand.

If anyone is trying this, some things I would suggest:

1. It is important to balance the two sides of the generator. The gaps, pole strengths, rotor permeabilities, and windings must all be made as symmetrical as possible. Otherwise, one ends up with a distorted waveform. I found with my transformer laminations that there is quite a bit of variation in the resulting inductors.

2. Use pole pieces as shown in the patent, and in JB's unit, rather than having the magnets exposed. The stack of magnets on each side will tend to average out the variation in pole strengths, and give a more uniform result. Also there is an energy contribution from having the pole pieces change the inductance of the rotors.

3. The frame needs to be strong, and allow for fine adjustment of the air gaps, again to make for better balance side to side. Use as small a gap as practical. Also, bigger is better, from the looks of it. If Kromrey refers to this as a "Ferromagnetic Generator", then more soft iron in the loop is better.

4. Use coil bobbins that are removable from the rotors. You will go nutty trying to wind things in place.

5. If it is necessary to make the windings in one pass, but still have a somewhat low resistance, it would seem that a thin copper tape in the form of a cork screw could be wound around a cylindrical form. Otherwise, layers of thin wire will have to do for experiments.

6. Work with just the minimum two poles initially. Get those right and go from there. I see some beautiful looking units with 3 pole pairs, that must have taken some work, but did not give output. More is not better until the principles involved are described. I see in the history of the Adams Motor a similar idea, where they got the "one lunger" going before moving on to the complex versions.

I am in the midst of yet another winding session, so I will update if anything new comes of it. I will also change to pole pieces as described above.

Good luck to all.

[Aaron]

Kromrey windings

Thanks for posting all of that!

As time permits, I can look more at how John wound these coils.

I could attach a battery to the output leads and see what magnetic polarity is available at each of the gen coil cores.

The windings are covered with some kind of resin. I don't really want to break that apart to verify the triple windings, at least not yet, but I can definitely verify the polarity. You have the classic Kromrey waveform so you probably have it the same.

[serendipitor]

More on pole pieces

Another reason why large, massive pole pieces could be crucial to the Kromrey is due to the inductance modulation effect. As the rotor cores come into alignment with those pole pieces, the coils will increase in self inductance, and then decrease as they turn away again. Jim Murray pointed out that this -dL/dt effect has the same unit analysis as negative resistance and was the "magic" that went into some of his work.

I went and checked my rotor by placing varying chunks of iron pieces on the ends. I found that I could double the inductance of the rotor windings with suitably large pole pieces. In designing a replication, it would be appropriate to use pole pieces large enough to enter into the zone of diminishing returns, so that one has a balance between maximum inductance increase, minimum loss of field by leakage and reluctance, and mechanical convenience.

Aaron, I see that your device there is well potted, but that it looks like the windings are somewhat messy, and using a single wire of maybe #20. So JB may have had more than one style of making his various models. If you can do some tests, I would suggest:

1. Use an inductance meter to check each of the four windings separately, both in and out of register with the poles.

2. Check the inductance of each side with the coil pairs in series as designed, again both in and out of register.

3. Put some DC through all four coils via the output brushes, and see what the polarities are.

#1 will tell how accurate the coils are, and how much they change with position. #2 will tell if the coils are in or out of phase. If their inductance increases when tested in series, they are in phase, if not, out of phase.

This would possibly clear up some of the foregoing speculations. As Tesla would say in Colorado Springs Notes, "This to follow up."

[serendipitor]

Comments based on Aaron's recent video

Aaron's recent video of JB's miniature Kromrey generator thankfully included the output waveform. The voltage showed what would be expected from a conventional salient pole induction generator, showing spikey high voltage (>100V) peaks rather than the more smooth waveform I had speculated upon in my earlier post. This is confusing based on what is in the Kromrey patent.

However, it is very much in line with JB's research, which centered on lead acid battery effects. Using that pulsed waveform as a battery pulse charger caused effects much like his later generators. For example, the battery got cooler as it charged, as demonstrated in the EFTV dvd. In regards to the units that were sold to MIT, JB mentioned that they told him that the generator "made a good battery charger". In the paper by Eike Mueller, "Experiments with a Kromrey Converter", the results showed this charging performance, but also showed low efficiency when loaded with just a resistor. Pulsating DC with sharp spikey waveforms was what Tesla was using in his work as well, just at higher frequency and voltage.

Kromrey's test data showed that he was lighting incandescent bulbs, and used a standard (of that time) watt meter to measure the power output. No battery involved. It is possible for high voltage spikes to light up incandescent bulbs in series, but not in the same mode as would be seen with low frequency AC. I wonder how the low frequency watt meter, used for measuring sine waves, would respond to this sort of pulsing.

If indeed the Kromrey converter is intended to generate high voltage spikes, then the patent figures showing the windings are indeed obfuscated, and the windings should instead be in series with phases adding, so that the total output voltage is four times that of one of the poles. This would mean that there is no exotic or mysterious induction occurring, and the unit is rather less interesting as a result, although the lack of back torque still needs further understanding. It could be an example of so called Delayed Lenz's Law reaction, as shown by a number of experimenters, such as J.L. Naudin.

One test I hope Aaron will perform is to vary the RPMs while watching the output. Kromrey stated that his machine made larger amplitude at smaller RPM, and lower amplitude as speed increased. This is the opposite of a standard dynamo. So this would be a test which could distinguish JB's unit from Kromrey's machine and further determine winding details.

The question becomes: why use 2 separate parallel rotors when the same waveform could be obtained more simply with just one rotor? JB moved on in his tests to more simplified means. I am still working on the next version of my unit, so hopefully I can comment further on this.

[Aaron]

Kromrey winding

One test I hope Aaron will perform is to vary the RPMs while watching the output. Kromrey stated that his machine made larger amplitude at smaller RPM, and lower amplitude as speed increased. This is the opposite of a standard dynamo. So this would be a test which could distinguish JB's unit from Kromrey's machine and further determine winding details.

I can do that sometime with varying the RPM.

There is a new bonus video I added to the Beyond presentation that details Bedini's coil winding method on his Kromrey. It will not go on YouTube but will be forwarded to everyone that purchased the presentation. It will also automatically be a part of the package for any new customers that purchase that presentation. I also added the YouTube shorting coil vids since they are relevant to the Kromrey and are helpful support material.

Did you ever purchase that presentation?

[serendipitor]

Did you ever purchase that presentation?

Yes I did. I will look into your new additions. Is there a link to the login page for that yet?

[Aaron]

downloads

Yes I did. I will look into your new additions. Is there a link to the login page for that yet?

If you have the login info for your original download, you can login with the same username/pw and redownload both links. Download 1 is the original presentation with a note in it and I believe it is even higher resolution than before. Download 2 has the new video.

[serendipitor]

Very good. Thanks much.

[serendipitor]

The Plot Thickens

I tested my latest version of the Kromrey, now with pole pieces and stacked magnets as used by others. I used about 210 turns on each of the four coils, #26 or close to that. My rotors are 25mm square faces, about 100mm long, made from transformer laminations. The pole pieces were also laminations. With the rotors in register with the poles, I measured 60 mH total inductance of all coils in series, phase adding. With the rotors at 90deg from the poles, the inductance went down to 40mH.

At about 2000 rpm I saw 100V P-P output, or 50V peak positive pulses after the bridge rectifier. With this setup, I see no unusual behavior at all. I.E. the drive motor is slowed and loaded when I short the output. Also, there are no cold effects, such as lighting incandescent bulbs or fluorescent tubes. In other words, it behaves like a very poor standard induction generator.

I notice that with all the replications that I have seen, which demonstrate the unloading of the motor under shorted output, (namely JB's units, the one in Germany, and one on youtube from Eastern EU) use is made of solid rotors and pole pieces, not laminations. Kromrey says to use laminations, but I wonder if this is yet another of his obfuscations. In looking at the only pictures of his large unit, I can't really say if there are laminations or solid components.

Another aspect that is present in those units that show the desired effects is that they produce loud magnetostriction noise (or something like it). In the EFTV DVD on the Kromrey, JB makes no bones about the fact that his small generator is very noisy. The larger unit he demonstrated in L.A. in the 1980's was very loud. My unit is virtually silent in that regard, just bearing noise.

And yet another aspect is that in JB's units, his rotors get quite warm, although there is a distinct cool breeze in the air around the unit. The heat is expected from the eddy currents induced in the solid rotor and poles, but the cool breeze needs to be explained.

What can be made of this? At the moment I have been going over the work of Dr. Harold Aspden, (ENERGY SCIENCE REPORTS, for instance Energy Science Report 1, Physics Without Einstein, Modern Aether Science)
who did his Ph. D. thesis on "Eddy Current Anomalies" which were being measured in sheet steels in the early 1950's. His point was that there were anywhere from 5 to 10 times more heat being generated by eddy currents than prevailing calculations were predicting. At the time he was not able to come up with a definitive answer, and he claims it is still a mystery, even though it has largely been swept under the rug.

In his later years he saw this anomaly as a sign of aether activity adding additional current to conventional magnetically induced eddy currents. He describes the heat in JB's rotors as being thermodynamically derived from the aether, and this would tend to create that cool deficit immediately around the unit.

A further point in this regard is seen in the Adams motor. (Remember that one?) No one ever had any luck getting his results, as far as I know. But he did describe using old telephone relays with solid cores for his coils. And there were a few comments in Adams' writings, as well as a comment by an observer, that Adams was most interested not in electrical generation, but in his more advanced unit which would generate heat by virtue of water being circulated through his solid pole pieces. So again, we see this same sign of anomalous heat and energy in solid poles.

That is where I am at in this mystery for now. There is obviously more to the Kromrey than I imagined. I am going to try another round of coil winding for lower resistance, but I do not expect any real change in behavior. Apparently the use of laminations eliminates the eddy currents that seem to be at the bottom of the desired effects. I had just assumed initially that JB and others used solid cores as merely convenient for construction, an expediency, and they just accepted the eddy losses. But apparently this is not the case. The elimination of eddy current is such reflex in motor/generator design. Now it seems to be one of those "Everything you know is wrong" situations.

[BroMikey]

I tested my latest version of the Kromrey



That is where I am at in this mystery for now.

There is obviously more to the Kromrey than I imagined.

"Everything you know is wrong" situations.

As I recall these machines will speed up when loaded for whatever
reason that may be. When a motor speeds up as it is loaded it is
exhibiting the defeating of Lenz Law. It must do that.

To get any motor to speed up when loaded things such as rotor gap,
coil impedance are important. Making a coil using heavy gauge wire will
not necessarily result in success. The thicker wire tends to pull lots
of amps and is the wrong direction for winding.

Try a mulifilar coil that has lots of thin parallel wraps and connect them in
series to find the right impedance for any random build. Then later when
you are sure on the length you can make another coil with less strands
that is not for test purposes.

This is only my opinion. This device will speed up under a loaded condition
just as any coil can. It is finding the right combination of gap to core size
to wire length. From what I recall some of these unit ran at 15,000rpm's.

Surely at these speeds a short coil will respond correctly.