Magnetic field of a bifilar pancake coil

[Allen Burgess]

Ramset challenge.

@ramset,

AlienGray just called you a ten year old over on the Overunity site:.

Quote from AlienGray:

"Chet, are you really only 10 years old?"

When are you going to grow up?

[RAMSET]

never

He refers to my age in my posted public profile at OU.com

** you added the second comment

I was not even speaking to him or with him, I was engaging Erfinder in a chat

Are you considering my offer ?
or is this comment above more to your liking ?

there are a dozen fellows building the project in the bifilar thread ,the thread has been sidetracked twice as many times by non builders ....you side tracked it probably a dozen times all by yourself ?

just like you are doing here

this has not happened onetime at other forums ,here you have taken over a mans thread by force...

Evostar reply to Allen
QUOTE
Allen Burgess,
With all respect I kindly but urgently ask you to start your own thread.

I do NOT like your words:
"you're a shameless scoundrel,
you deceptive trouble maker"
END QUOTE

who is acting like what ??

@ Allen
Do you accept or not?

[Allen Burgess]

Pot stirring.

He refers to my age in my posted public profile at OU.com

Are you considering my offer ?
or is this comment above more to your liking ?

there are a dozen fellows building the project in the bifilar thread ,the thread has been sidetracked twice as many times by non builders ....

this has not happened onetime at other forums ,here you have taken over a mans thread by force...

Evostar reply to Allen
QUOTE
Allen Burgess,
With all respect I kindly but urgently ask you to start your own thread.

I do NOT like your words:
"you're a shameless scoundrel,
you deceptive trouble maker"
END QUOTE

who is acting like what ??

@ramset,

You act like a scolding old woman. Stop stirring the pot. All you can do is fill the thread with a bunch of lame run on malarkey. Knock it off!

[RAMSET]

Evostar reply to Allen
QUOTE
Allen Burgess,
With all respect I kindly but urgently ask you to start your own thread.

I do NOT like your words:
"you're a shameless scoundrel,
you deceptive trouble maker"
END QUOTE

Allen
I WILL REMOVE ALL MY POSTS HERE
just answer the question?
will you offer a build to support your claims?
no one understands your claims here [or your math]
a build will help explain that !!

yes or no

[Allen Burgess]

Math.

Evostar reply to Allen
QUOTE
Allen Burgess,
With all respect I kindly but urgently ask you to start your own thread.

I do NOT like your words:
"you're a shameless scoundrel,
you deceptive trouble maker"
END QUOTE

Allen
I WILL REMOVE ALL MY POSTS HERE
just answer the question?
will you offer a build to support your claims?
no one understands your claims here [or your math]
a build will help explain that !!

yes or no

@ramset,

I have two projects on my test bench right now; Let me start with the math:

Xee2 has a series bifilar and a single wire coil of equal turns on two identical high perm cores.

The single wire coil measures 15.9 Milli-Henrys and the bifilar 16.8 Milli-Henrys of inductance.

We know that it takes 3600 Joules per second to generate 1 Tesla of magnetic force in a coil of 1 Henry of inductance, and that 1 Tesla is equal to 10,000 Gauss; Therefore:

16.8 mH divided by 10,000 equals 168 Gauss for the bifilar and 159 Gauss for the single wire at the following power input:

10,000 divided by 3600 equals 2.777. Multiplied by 168 Gauss equals 466.6 Joules per second or 466.6 Watts.

Multiplying the single wire Gauss by the same factor equals 441.5 watts.

Deducting the the 441.5 from the 466.6 gives us 25.1 watts.

So, the gain factor for the bifilar over the single wire coil with the high perm ferrite core is 25.1 watts. That's the power we would save to generate a magnetic field of identical force with the series bifilar wrap over the single wire coil of equal windings.

[RAMSET]

Please consider me ignorant of your math and the method you are using to apply this to an experiment.
can you destill the claim for me?

I am struggling to follow
can you be so kind as to put this in layman's terms ?

an actual claim ?

and an actual experiment to show this claim?

[Bob Smith]

I am watching this topic with interest here and on a couple of other forums. I have been working with a set of three series-wound bifilar pancake (swbifip) coils for about a week. My focus is on the interaction between the swbifip coil and the local electrostatic environment.

If I am not mistaken, an inductor pulsed below resonant frequency will be dominated by capacitive reactance, while pulsed above resonant frequency, resistive reactance dominates. In simplest terms, below resonance, the inductor behaves like a capacitor, and above resonance, begins to behave like a resistor. At resonance, neither predominates.

However, given the low reactance and high capacitance of the swbifip coil due to its configuration, what actually happens to its capacitance (let alone reactance) at resonance?

I'm going to throw out a thought - if reactance in an inductor drops to zero at resonance, and we transpose this understanding to the swbifip coil, is it possible that at resonance, its extremely low reactance might drop below zero, effectively giving it negentropic characteristics of a negative resistor?

There are some decent YT videos out there showing a rise in voltage amplitude at resonance in this coil. Is it another animal entirely, for which another set of parameters has to apply?
Bob

Sorry,
I just don't want this question to get lost. My question again, " Is the series wound bifilar pancake coil another kind of coil (vis a vis the single wound) entirely, for which another set of parameters has to apply?
Bob

[RAMSET]

Bob
I am not certain why you are reposting this ignored post in the middle of this discussion;
are you addressing evostar ? or do you approve of Allen the conqueror;s behavior here and are stepping over the mugged Evostar at the door to greet Allen with a question?

you do know Allen thru Evostar out of this thread [EVOSTARS THREAD} or acted so incredibly rude that he has left until moderators correct the problem here???

and now I am asking Allen the conqueror to "PUT UP"
show why you act this way ?
some MEAT not Math and RUDE TALK AND HORRIBLE BEHAVIOR

So I have a question to the suddenly.. unusually shy Allen the rude

he loves math so
If what you seem to be saying is real ,at what gauss strength will the Bifi coil
save this 25watts over the single wound ?
and can you show this here so we can replicate it [YOUR WORK]



this would be good to prove and at the very least be a worthwhile contribution

although it makes no sense why you have kicked Evostar out of his own thread here.
or why administration here allows this??

I am actually hoping you can show something here,

dont be shy

we are after all talking about an investment here and a commitment to build {BY ME}




respectfully
Chet K

[citfta]

Sorry,
I just don't want this question to get lost. My question again, " Is the series wound bifilar pancake coil another kind of coil (vis a vis the single wound) entirely, for which another set of parameters has to apply?
Bob

Hi Bob,

If you want to come over to the Open Discussion for Projects on this forum thread I will try to answer your questions for you. This thread is a lost cause because of all the foolishness posted here by Allen.

Carroll

[Allen Burgess]

Bifilar and single wire inductance.

I used Xee2's inductance measures that show a 5% greater Micro-Henries of inductance in his series biflar then his single wound coil of equal turns and wire gauge on both a low and high perm ferrite toroid core.

I reviewed my inductance measurements of two air core bifilar and single wire coils and measured a 10% higher inductance in the series bifilar. The problem was I ran out of space on the bobbin for the single wire at 4 Ohms, while the bifilar measured 5 Ohms. I divided the Ohms into the Milli-Henries for a ratio and arrived at a 10% greater inductance for the bifilar, twice the percentage of Xee2.

I think the extra difference may be a consequence of my "Home style wrap" so I plan to do one more test with two tight coils of equal turns on a High-Perm ferrite core.

[Allen Burgess]

Bob
I am not certain why you are reposting this ignored post in the middle of this discussion;
are you addressing evostar ? or do you approve of Allen the conqueror;s behavior here and are stepping over the mugged Evostar at the door to greet Allen with a question?

you do know Allen thru Evostar out of this thread [EVOSTARS THREAD} or acted so incredibly rude that he has left until moderators correct the problem here???

and now I am asking Allen the conqueror to "PUT UP"
show why you act this way ?
some MEAT not Math and RUDE TALK AND HORRIBLE BEHAVIOR

So I have a question to the suddenly.. unusually shy Allen the rude

he loves math so
If what you seem to be saying is real ,at what gauss strength will the Bifi coil
save this 25watts over the single wound ?
and can you show this here so we can replicate it [YOUR WORK]



this would be good to prove and at the very least be a worthwhile contribution

although it makes no sense why you have kicked Evostar out of his own thread here.
or why administration here allows this??

I am actually hoping you can show something here,

dont be shy

we are after all talking about an investment here and a commitment to build {BY ME}




respectfully
Chet K

@ramset,

Who appointed you "Supreme Nazi Dictator" of the "Energetic Forum" site? You are really an extremely toxic and obnoxious person!

[Allen Burgess]

Hi Bob,

If you want to come over to the Open Discussion for Projects on this forum thread I will try to answer your questions for you. This thread is a lost cause because of all the foolishness posted here by Allen.

Carroll

@Citfta,

You're the "Fool". You have no right to act like Bob Smith is trespassing on this thread with irrelevant comments, when he has bifilar coils on his test bench. Where are your tests?

[bistander]

Allen's math

@ramset,

I have two projects on my test bench right now; Let me start with the math:

Xee2 has a series bifilar and a single wire coil of equal turns on two identical high perm cores.

The single wire coil measures 15.9 Milli-Henrys and the bifilar 16.8 Milli-Henrys of inductance.

We know that it takes 3600 Joules per second to generate 1 Tesla of magnetic force in a coil of 1 Henry of inductance, and that 1 Tesla is equal to 10,000 Gauss; Therefore:

16.8 mH divided by 10,000 equals 168 Gauss for the bifilar and 159 Gauss for the single wire at the following power input:

10,000 divided by 3600 equals 2.777. Multiplied by 168 Gauss equals 466.6 Joules per second or 466.6 Watts.

Multiplying the single wire Gauss by the same factor equals 441.5 watts.

Deducting the the 441.5 from the 466.6 gives us 25.1 watts.

So, the gain factor for the bifilar over the single wire coil with the high perm ferrite core is 25.1 watts. That's the power we would save to generate a magnetic field of identical force with the series bifilar wrap over the single wire coil of equal windings.

First, here is the source for the 2 Xee2 coils Allen mentions. I did google search briefly but could not find the true source. http://www.energeticforum.com/301121-post178.html

So we don't know a lot about the coils like size, resistance, etc.

Next let's look at Allen's first calculation:

16.8 mH divided by 10,000 equals 168 Gauss for the bifilar and 159 Gauss for the single wire at the following power input:

16.8 mH / 10000 = 0.00168 mH = 1.68 uH. But Allen's answer to this mathematical operation is 168 gauss. So I guess Allen meant multiply instead of divide. 16.8 mH * 10000 = 168 gauss.

This does coincide with what Allen claims "we" all know (I don't know who else he thinks knows this falsehood, but we'll carry on with it), that a henry = tesla. So if we convert 16.8 mH to H, we have 0.0168H. Which according to Allen is equal to 0.0168T. A unit tesla is equal to 10000 gauss units. So 0.0168T = 168G.

Proceeding to Allen's next calculation:

10,000 divided by 3600 equals 2.777. Multiplied by 168 Gauss equals 466.6 Joules per second or 466.6 Watts.

This calculation comes from his claim that:

It takes 3600 Joules per second to generate 1 Tesla or 10,000 Gauss in a coil of 1 Henry.

And looking at the line:

Multiplying the single wire Gauss by the same factor equals 441.5 watts.

you can see it is a simple factor of 2.777 watts per gauss, or 2.777W/G, or 3600 J/(T*s).

What does this imply? That coil lying on the bench has an inductance of 16.8mH. Then it has a magnetic flux density of 16.8mT (or 168G) always. No matter what. And it always has 441.5W. It always uses and or converts 441.5 watts of power no matter what.

That is an incredible claim.

[bistander]

Extra turn

Xee2 tested the inductance of the two different kinds of windings on ferrite cores and measured a 5% increase in the series bifilar in both low and high perm cores:

I want to point out a peculiar fact often overlooked concerning toroid wound inductors and bifilar series connected winding. The two coils in the attachment were measured for inductance and the bifilar showed 5% higher. They each had 20 turns around the core. This neglects the "extra" turn (or loop) in series with the 20 turns on the bifilar. See the green path. So a cursory look is 21 turns versus 20 turns or a 5% increase in loops and associated wire length. It is likely a complicated calculation to determine the exact contribution to inductance from this extra turn due to the fact that it is not on the same core as the other turns and its flux linkage and mutual coupling are unknown. But it is obvious to me it will contribute.


FWIW,

bi

[evostars]

I am watching this topic with interest here and on a couple of other forums. I have been working with a set of three series-wound bifilar pancake (swbifip) coils for about a week. My focus is on the interaction between the swbifip coil and the local electrostatic environment.

If I am not mistaken, an inductor pulsed below resonant frequency will be dominated by resistive reactance, while pulsed above resonant frequency, capacitive reactance dominates. In simplest terms, below resonance, the inductor behaves like a resistor, and above resonance, begins to behave like a capacitor. At resonance, neither predominates.

However, given the low reactance and high capacitance of the swbifip coil due to its configuration, what actually happens to its capacitance (let alone reactance) at resonance?

I'm going to throw out a thought - if reactance in an inductor drops to zero at resonance, and we transpose this understanding to the swbifip coil, is it possible that at resonance, its extremely low reactance might drop below zero, effectively giving it negentropic characteristics of a negative resistor?

There are some decent YT videos out there showing a rise in voltage amplitude at resonance in this coil. Is it another animal entirely, for which another set of parameters has to apply?
Bob

Welcome bob, good statements
like: above resonance, begins to behave like a capacitor.

The series bifilar coil with it resonant voltage rise is indeed a completely different animal.

Im working on it, so Im not reading al the posts.