Magnetic field of a bifilar pancake coil

[evostars]

Im building Nelson Rocha's circuit he has posted a few years ago. In search for high voltage hairpin impulses.

Tr2 is a step up tranformer (230V-5V in reverse)

capacitors at the base and the 4700pF need to bee 400V rating
diodes ultra fast.

the ring toroid 1:1 is a joulethief with the darlington. creating pulses in the step up transformer.

waiting for some parts...

with high enough current/voltage the sine wave (expected) transforms into pulses (i hope...).

[Allen Burgess]

High perm bifilar inductance.

First, here is the source for the 2 Xee2 coils Allen mentions. I did google search briefly but could not find the true source. http://www.energeticforum.com/301121-post178.html

So we don't know a lot about the coils like size, resistance, etc.

Next let's look at Allen's first calculation:


16.8 mH / 10000 = 0.00168 mH = 1.68 uH. But Allen's answer to this mathematical operation is 168 gauss. So I guess Allen meant multiply instead of divide. 16.8 mH * 10000 = 168 gauss.

This does coincide with what Allen claims "we" all know (I don't know who else he thinks knows this falsehood, but we'll carry on with it), that a henry = tesla. So if we convert 16.8 mH to H, we have 0.0168H. Which according to Allen is equal to 0.0168T. A unit tesla is equal to 10000 gauss units. So 0.0168T = 168G.

Proceeding to Allen's next calculation:


This calculation comes from his claim that:

And looking at the line:
you can see it is a simple factor of 2.777 watts per gauss, or 2.777W/G, or 3600 J/(T*s).

What does this imply? That coil lying on the bench has an inductance of 16.8mH. Then it has a magnetic flux density of 16.8mT (or 168G) always. No matter what. And it always has 441.5W. It always uses and or converts 441.5 watts of power no matter what.

That is an incredible claim.

@bistander,

Xee2 shows a 5% difference in inductance between his two types of coils and the mathematical difference in input that I factor out equals 5% as well.

A tightly wound coil will measure a higher inductance and generate a stronger magnetic field then a sloppily wound coil of equal turns and wire gauge measuring a lower inductance while generating a weaker magnetic field with the same input . That's exactly what my calculations show. This has nothing what-so-ever to do with your other argument that Xee2's measurements are faulty.

I am in the process of winding the two different types of coils on the same high perm ferrite core rod to measure for and compare inductance at this time.

The inference you make that the tiny wire connection between the bifilar windings accounts a huge 1.9 mH difference in inductance is ludicrous. See the High Perm inductance measurements below:

[evostars]

When pulsed from both ends, at the same time, but with opposite polarity pulses, We still have a dielectric voltage rise, but now with the absence of the normally observed"static" magnetic field (seen with a compass) at resonant frequency.

We ring a bell, with a strong impulse, short and energetic. thats why I need hairpin pulses, with high voltage.

We are use to inductive power. but this coil is about capacitive power.

MAgnetic fields are the LOSS of the dielectric field. When we spend energy we produce magnetic fields.

So to CREATE energy we need to stay away from producing magnetic fields, we need to produce strong dielectric fields (something the bifilar pancake tesla coil excels in).

to use the standing wave, it needs to be 180 degrees out of phase (2 resonating coils).
This can be understood by looking at 2 equal ropes. that slap together at 180 degrees out of phase, the complete rope clashes together, producing a big slap.

I like to use a center tap, so the coils become whips. producing even higher voltage. (2 coils series connected in the middle, to ground, so the outside ends are 180 degrees out of phase).

the bang it produces with High voltage, bounces back....

When the dielectric field energy is rectified, and captured in capacitors, it can then be transformed into lower voltage.

A few days rest, and then the parts will arrive .

[bistander]

Read my post

@bistander,

... your other argument that Xee2's measurements are faulty.

...

I never said his measurements were faulty.

...

The inference you make that the tiny wire connection between the bifilar windings accounts a huge 1.9 mH difference in inductance is ludicrous. ...

I made no such inference. I simply stated facts I've come across in studies of toriod core wound inductors. Do what you want with the information but stop claiming I say and/or infer things which I don't and can plainly be seen from reading my post.

[bistander]

What?

@bistander,

Xee2 shows a 5% difference in inductance between his two types of coils and the mathematical difference in input that I factor out equals 5% as well.

A tightly wound coil will measure a higher inductance and generate a stronger magnetic field then a sloppily wound coil of equal turns and wire gauge measuring a lower inductance while generating a weaker magnetic field with the same input . That's exactly what my calculations show. This has nothing what-so-ever to do with your other argument that Xee2's measurements are faulty.

I am in the process of winding the two different types of coils on the same high perm ferrite core rod to measure for and compare inductance at this time.

The inference you make that the tiny wire connection between the bifilar windings accounts a huge 1.9 mH difference in inductance is ludicrous. See the High Perm inductance measurements below:

This has nothing to do with the post to which you replied.

[Allen Burgess]

I never said his measurements were faulty.



I made no such inference. I simply stated facts I've come across in studies of toriod core wound inductors. Do what you want with the information but stop claiming I say and/or infer things which I don't and can plainly be seen from reading my post.

@bistander,

Quote from bistander:

"This neglects the "extra" turn (or loop) in series with the 20 turns on the bifilar".

This is a straight wire, not a loop; Even if you were right, that the connection added to the bifilar's inductance, the single wire coil would have no way to benefit from that advantage.

[Allen Burgess]

Inductance efficiency.

@bistander,

I made the point that a more tightly wound coil would generate a stronger field than a sloppily wound coil of equal wire gauge and turns for the same input. Lets say the difference in inductance was 5%. We could equal the strength of the sloppy coil with the tight coil by reducing the input by 5%, right?

Lets say we feed 10 watts into both coils: We would gain 1/2 watt in savings, right? 100 watts would result in 5 watts savings and 500 watts would result in 25 watts savings, got it?

My power input calculations result in a savings of that amount with that amount of difference in inductance between the two types of coils. You say I divided when I should have multiplied. Your approach would throw the answer off in the wrong direction by an "Astronomical Parsec".

I was asked for a simple explanation: Greater inductance results greater efficiency, got it? Your math is really stupid! Stop acting strange.

[Bob Smith]

Hi Bob,

If you want to come over to the Open Discussion for Projects on this forum thread I will try to answer your questions for you. This thread is a lost cause because of all the foolishness posted here by Allen.

Carroll

Thanks for taking the time for this correction, Carroll (I saw it on the other thread). I'll make the changes tonight when I get home from work.
Bob

[Diplomacy]

MAgnetic fields are the LOSS of the dielectric field. When we spend energy we produce magnetic fields.

So to CREATE energy we need to stay away from producing magnetic fields, we need to produce strong dielectric fields (something the bifilar pancake tesla coil excels in).

the bang it produces with High voltage, bounces back....

When the dielectric field energy is rectified, and captured in capacitors, it can then be transformed into lower voltage.

A few days rest, and then the parts will arrive .

Eagerly awaiting results, thank you for continued updates despite the small circus going on in your thread.

[Allen Burgess]

Bifilar and single wire coils setup:

Here's a picture of my single wire and bifilar coils on the same high perm ferrite core. My "VICI" inductance meter is seen in the background registering the temperature at 27 degrees Centigrade. That's 80.6 Fahrenheit, just about perfect here in Costa Rica along with a nice sea breeze!

[Allen Burgess]

Costa Rica.

I thought it only fair to turn my PC camera over my veranda to treat every one to a glimpse of paradise!

[Allen Burgess]

Watt level per Gauss

@ramset,

Quote from ramset:

"At what gauss strength will the Bifi coil save this 25 watts over the single wound"?

Do you realize that I have to take time away from my test bench to answer such utterly ridiculous questions like this from you? You act as though your brain is functioning on four communal lentil peas. (More squeal ammo to copy over and complain about to Stephan at the Overunity site).

The answer is: Any and every level of equal input to the two types of coils will result in the same difference in Gauss level and efficiency.

[RAMSET]

Allen
I originally asked you for a simple experiment to replicate.
instead you posted more of your favorite fighting topic MATH STUFF

so I asked you to expound upon your Gauss claim with an answer to a very simple Gauss calculation [which you claim to be fluent in]

instead I got a sidestep on an experiment ,which should have been at your finger tips these last years of making this claim and
on the actual math /gauss strength I get Crickets chirping instead of a solid figure.

I would start another thread here

it would be very important to Qualify this 5 minute math problem
for someone making such a huge issue out of the math and its implied consequences to a years long [YOUR YEARS LONG] math fight.

There absolutely is an answer to this question and we should investigate this sideways answer you are attempting to present.

start another thread please ,you keep posting here as if your presence is supported ,we both know this is not the case.
actually the entire forum knows this ,but you like to win Sooo
this is what winning looks like to you ???

start another topic
enuff excuses about 5 minute math equations ...which DEFINATELY HAS AN ANSWER and its not yours... it is a calculated Gauss strength based on information you supplied.

I will not post another word in evostars thread and will remove this
post in two hours.

COMMENT TO BOGUSLAW BELOW

sounds exactly [or close] to what is about to start being experimented with here and elsewhere [in a dedicated thread]

[boguslaw]

Id on't think dielectric field is so much different then magnetic field. Imho dielectric field is just very high frequency magnetic field oscillation.I have create one day by accident large dielectric field and it was by nanoseconds fluctuations of magnetic field of car coil winding. Some cmos electronics has the bug to go into Mhz range oscillations by itself in some cases...

[Allen Burgess]

Inflated air

Allen
I originally asked you for a simple experiment to replicate.
instead you posted more of your favorite fighting topic MATH STUFF

so I asked you to expound upon your Gauss claim with an answer to a very simple Gauss calculation [which you claim to be fluent in]

instead I got a sidestep on an experiment ,which should have been at your finger tips these last years of making this claim and
on the actual math /gauss strength I get Crickets chirping instead of a solid figure.

I would start another thread here

it would be very important to Qualify this 5 minute math problem
for someone making such a huge issue out of the math and its implied consequences to a years long [YOUR YEARS LONG] math fight.

There absolutely is an answer to this question and we should investigate this sideways answer you are attempting to present.

start another thread please ,you keep posting here as if your presence is supported ,we both know this is not the case.
actually the entire forum knows this ,but you like to win Sooo
this is what winning looks like to you ???

start another topic
enuff excuses about 5 minute math equations ...which DEFINATELY HAS AN ANSWER and its not yours... it is a calculated Gauss strength based on information you supplied.

I will not post another word in evostars thread and will remove this
post in two hours.

COMMENT TO BOGUSLAW BELOW

sounds exactly [or close] to what is about to start being experimented with here and elsewhere [in a dedicated thread]

@ramset,

You say less with more worthless verbiage than anyone on both forums included. I'm warning you to stay off my back with your incessant ridicule or I'll be the one doing the complaining!


Test Measurements:

My current test measurements are .35 mH for the single wire and .38 mH for the series bifilar on the high perm ferrite core; Very close to the inductance ratio measure of the two air cores I measured earlier, around 10%.