Charge Pump Circuit

[dragon]

Hi dragon,

When I do the calculation of connecting two 1F caps (one charged to 12V and one at 24V), I get a resulting voltage of 18.98V. Assuming ideal capacitors and circuitry, there are no losses or missing energy. Assuming an average voltage when connecting the two caps is incorrect.

Regards,

bi

bistander, that's interesting... can you show and explain the math? I tend to use averages for quick reference and extrapolate data from experiments to get an overall view of what I'm seeing. Processing the end results of my circuits is sometimes perplexing based on all the variables. ( for me anyway )....

[SkyWatcher]

Hi all, before even reading the recent replies, of course i didn't mean higher output than input.
I meant, we might be getting more power out from an external source, not associated to what we input.
So yes, i meant coefficient of performance, i just assumed you all knew that is what i meant.
peace love light

Well, take for example, the collapsing field of a coil, does that give us more than we input, not usually, though it gives us back some to use from the environment, external to what we input.
I think your logic with this is sound dragon and your original circuit is probably the best design to use, based on the low losses and multiple recycling passes.
Though dragon, you still didn't respond to what you thought the benefits of the charging battery might be, or how it compares to your 4 pass circuit.

[dragon]

Hi all, before even reading the recent replies, of course i didn't mean higher output than input.
I meant, we might be getting more power out from an external source, not associated to what we input.
So yes, i meant coefficient of performance, i just assumed you all knew that is what i meant.
peace love light

I knew what you meant, I just wanted to be clear to those that might interpret what I was saying as some type of overunity effect.

[dragon]

Hi all, before even reading the recent replies, of course i didn't mean higher output than input.
I meant, we might be getting more power out from an external source, not associated to what we input.
So yes, i meant coefficient of performance, i just assumed you all knew that is what i meant.
peace love light

Well, take for example, the collapsing field of a coil, does that give us more than we input, not usually, though it gives us back some to use from the environment, external to what we input.
I think your logic with this is sound dragon and your original circuit is probably the best design to use, based on the low losses and multiple recycling passes.
Though dragon, you still didn't respond to what you thought the benefits of the charging battery might be, or how it compares to your 4 pass circuit.

Though dragon, you still didn't respond to what you thought the benefits of the charging battery might be, or how it compares to your 4 pass circuit

To be honest Skywatcher I haven't tried that set up. Anything I might say about it would simply be speculation. There is no doubt in my mind it will work reasonably well. The extent of its performance would need to be measured and compared.

When time allows I'll be setting up a few different innovations you've brought to the table. Until I get caught up on some other projects I can only watch and drool over what others are doing...although I'm sluffing off a bit today - to many 16 hour days, my motivation level is a bit lacking today...

[bistander]

Math

bistander, that's interesting... can you show and explain the math? ... ( for me anyway )....

Sure. Two 1F capacitors + to + and - to - are parallel connected between + and -. So equivalent capacitance is 2F. Total capacitance of capacitors in parallel is the sum of the individual capacitances.

You were correct in the energy calculations of 288J and 72J so the total energy of the two capacitors is the sum or 360J no matter how they are wired.

We're assuming zero resistance in the capacitors and zero resistance in connecting wires. So just solve the energy equation of .5 * 2F * V^2 = 360J for V. V = square root 360 = 18.98V.

When you have non ideal components like real capacitors and copper wires and sparks upon connections, the math becomes more complex using integrals because the V, I functions are not linear with respect to time. Also the reasons that simple averages are inaccurate.

bi

[dragon]

Thanks bistander, while testing I was showing around 18.3 volts balanced so were not to far off from the calculated vs real world numbers.

[SkyWatcher]

Hi all, ok thanks for the reply dragon, i wish you could have more time to experiment as you wish to, then I await any results you might share down the road.
Just for reference, i checked the battery resting voltages again today, no testing, still not feeling that great.
So I think it has been almost 3 days now resting:
Battery A = 12.54 volts
Battery B = 12.52 volts
Battery C = 12.60 volts charge battery

Keep in mind, these batteries started out resting, before any testing at all at:
Battery A = 12.52 volts
Battery B = 12.53 volts
Battery C = 12.55 volts

peace love light

[ricards]

2 12V 1F in series is 24v 0.5F which results to 18.4v much closer to the actual,

I was using the same formula bistander has provided on connecting 2 capacitor with different values and voltage.. compared "work performed" vs "initial Energy" (Charge). and still manage to come-up with COP greater than 1 Only on assumed scenario:

87% Energy Transfer (connecting capacitor to capacitor)
90% Energy to Work (load)
10 Cycles Passed

Charge_Calc.zip
This Calculation is actually adjusted to match the actual voltage measure on each cycle, meaning if we could attain close to 100% efficiency we would get higher COP...

my intuition tells me that there really isn't any "Energy Conversion" happening at all, It's more like Its just cause and effect!

I'm speaking my mind out again..

[Wistiti]

Interesting results Sky!
Hope you feel better soon!

[dragon]

Very nicely done ricards !!! I lean toward similar conclusions from the work I've done finding you can get very close to unity with different senario's.

SkyWatcher, get a healthy dose of sunshine and shake the ill's - sending lots of good thoughts your way!

[ricards]

Very nicely done ricards !!! I lean toward similar conclusions from the work I've done finding you can get very close to unity with different senario's.

SkyWatcher, get a healthy dose of sunshine and shake the ill's - sending lots of good thoughts your way!

hi dragon,

thanks.., how did you manage to switch 160v @ 3800uf? I remember you posted something like? if i remember correctly.

the toy relay rated at 10 amps didn't last 2 switches @ 100v 940uf..
now its dead.

[dragon]

hi dragon,

thanks.., how did you manage to switch 160v @ 3800uf? I remember you posted something like? if i remember correctly.

the toy relay rated at 10 amps didn't last 2 switches @ 100v 940uf..
now its dead.

Yes, The relays would really need to have the capability of high amp surges to survive switching higher voltages, I think this is the one your referring to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3oI5nAIT7w

The caps are 6800uf 350volt. The IGBT's are QM300HA-2H, 1000 volt 300 amp. I'm planning to replace them with a half bridge module of similar rating to reduce the parts count. This way the clock, driver and IGBT module can be consolidated into a small package. The IR2153D is like a 555 timer on one side with the half bridge driver on the other side - seems to fit the bill quite nicely. Still playing with it to make sure there are no surprises. I have a small one set up with the mosfets that I can play around with late in the eveining until I have more time to play with the larger stuff. ( schematic shown a few posts back ).

[SkyWatcher]

Hi all, thanks for get better wishes.
I ran the 3 battery setup yesterday, for an hour total.
So that's about 2 hours run time so far with this setup.

I think this needs more run time to be more conclusive, though I have no explanation at the moment, for why the voltage seems to be increasing on the batteries, overall.
I am aware of the 4 battery tesla switch, that a company was testing, using mechanical rotating switches and apparently, the batteries never discharged, but gained energy.
I don't know yet, if that may be happening here, we shall see.
I did place the 2 input batteries in parallel with the charge battery for a few hours today, to transfer some charge.
So the batteries are now resting at:
Battery A = 12.56 volts
Battery B = 12.61 volts now in charge battery position
Battery C = 12.56 volts

peace love light

[ricards]

Hi all, thanks for get better wishes.
I ran the 3 battery setup yesterday, for an hour total.
So that's about 2 hours run time so far with this setup.

I think this needs more run time to be more conclusive, though I have no explanation at the moment, for why the voltage seems to be increasing on the batteries, overall.
I am aware of the 4 battery tesla switch, that a company was testing, using mechanical rotating switches and apparently, the batteries never discharged, but gained energy.
I don't know yet, if that may be happening here, we shall see.
I did place the 2 input batteries in parallel with the charge battery for a few hours today, to transfer some charge.
So the batteries are now resting at:
Battery A = 12.56 volts
Battery B = 12.61 volts now in charge battery position
Battery C = 12.56 volts

peace love light

Hello Sky,

one more test that is worth looking is if you charge the battery through a load (ala 3 BGS) as I think that is what you are heading.. which is actually good..

One thing that makes this circuit more attractive to me is the capacitive discharge method which at larger scale can deliver much more power than a battery.. aside from that its lightweight and small in size..
BUT of course only if we could make a successful loop.

[dragon]

The 3 battery system is a remarkable piece of work - the work Dave and Matt are doing is quite amazing. While playing with that arrangement my only complaint was the limitations based on the restrictions of the batteries ability to absorb high current. This meant I needed a large bank of batteries to provide the power and assure the batteries weren't being damaged in any way. Capacitors remove the limits of voltage and current. They still provide many challenges along the way but the energy I need/want is there. It's a matter of how to manipulate the charges to provide the work I want from the system.

I've seen mentions several times about the possibility of "looping" the charge back to the initial source battery. Maybe I can add a twist to the thought of replacing the energy to instead - reducing the input requirement. Once maximum efficiency is reached replacing the energy becomes a much simpler task.

I'm sure many of you have built circuits that charge capacitors and found that once the cap is charged the circuit goes into an ultra low power low level oscillation. If you pulse the charged cap you can use the HV to produce a high current surge without draining the cap to a large degree thus leaving the oscillator in a low power state while only having to provide a maintenance charge.

Since I don't believe there is energy in excess of the original input source I'm forced to think in terms of finding alternative sources (free energy sources) or manipulate what is available by finding more efficient ways to use it which includes recycling in many forms. The easiest way to start is to manipulate energy over time. An extreme example, lets say your heating a meal in a 1500 watt microwave, an inverter connected to a 12v battery bank as the source. If we draw 125 amps for 1 minute how much energy did we remove from the batteries? The answer is 25 watts (w/h) or 2 amp/hours removed from the source. With a 25 watt solar panel I could run a 1500 watt load for 1 minute every hour.

I like to think in terms of how can I run things I normally use - making coffee, toast, running the frig, computer, TV or even simple lighting. So ask yourself... If it could be done... How would I do it? I don't claim to have all the answers, little by little finding creative solutions that reduce the need to purchase the energy for things we do every day isn't that far out of reach.