The bistander thread

[bistander]

... core loss is NOT my "magnetic drag". The attraction of the magnets to the iron cores is. ...
Cogging is due to magnets and iron cores." ... The attraction of the magnets to the iron cores is the magnetic drag. ...

Look it up. Definition. Magnetic drag is due to core losses which are eddy current losses and hysteresis losses in the iron.

Cogging is caused by the attractive forces between the magnets and the iron core(s). Look it up.

... Core loss is the loss that occurs in a magnetic core due to alternating magnetization, which is the sum of the hysteresis loss and the eddy current loss. ...

This is correct and often referred to as magnetic drag, particularly in eddy current brakes and retarders.

bi

[bistander]

You really don't know a thing. I have no cores without coils and no coils without cores on this machine. If a coil is present. So is a core. If a core is present, so is a coil. In the whole paragraph you quoted I never ONCE mentioned EITHER word now did I? Take a look. Can YOU read? I never said cogging was affected by copper coils. Show me where I said that? I didn't. I may have said "coils" but if you think about it, that also means CORES when talking about this machine, now doesn't it? If you think there is one without the other, you are sadly mistaken. Yes I know, you are unable to get over that obsession with semantics and using the meaning of words to try and pull your foot out of your mouth, but it doesn't fly with me. If you cannot figure out that "coil" is inclusive of "core" in the context of this machine, you need to get yerself edjicated.



You are the one who keeps insisting that cogging is not a factor, not me. On THIS machine it is definitely a factor. So no, silly boy, core loss is NOT my "magnetic drag". The attraction of the magnets to the iron cores is. Oh wait, you said that up above in red..."Cogging is due to magnets and iron cores." I have said this a number of times, but I do understand your issues with reading so I will say it again. The attraction of the magnets to the iron cores is the magnetic drag. Got it? Core loss is the loss that occurs in a magnetic core due to alternating magnetization, which is the sum of the hysteresis loss and the eddy current loss. I know I already told you that, but I guess that reading problem of yours is always going to be an issue.




It has Angular Velocity oh master of semantics. Angular velocity is an observable and MEASURABLE physical condition. You can actually put a meter on it and measure it. Angular momentum is the solution to a mathematical equation involving the moment of inertia x the angular velocity. Momentum cannot be measured, only calculated. You're not the ONLY one who has read a book you know.



Edit 3:
BTW, I never said magnetic attraction goes away at speed. Where did that come from?

No, you said cogging goes away at speed. What is cogging you ask? Look at what YOU wrote in red above for the answer... "Cogging is due to magnets and iron cores." Why indeed it is. Just as I have been saying all along. The ATTRACTION between the two.

And by the way, Angular Velocity is speed over time, so it really is "measured" by a meter that does the calculations automatically using a reference point like a timing mark or reflective tape. . I DO understand that. You can "measure" it because that meter exists, but there is no meter to measure Angular Momentum. Are we having fun yet

https://youtu.be/i3f3qFwTId0

Turion,

Unbelievable. You're beyond help.

Last paragraph:

"Angular Velocity is speed over time"
You sure about that?

"You can "measure" it because that meter exists, but there is no meter to measure Angular Momentum."
and from a few paragraphs before:
"Angular momentum is the solution to a mathematical equation involving the moment of inertia x the angular velocity."
So what's your point? How did you
conclude your machine has no angular momentum at speed?

And nice looking parts. Thanks for walking us through it. Where do the neutralization magnets mount?

bi

Edit:
you said "No, you said cogging goes away at speed."

No, I said cogging is irrelevant or insignificant at speed. That's different from "goes away".

Edit 2:
You say:
"I have no cores without coils and no coils without cores on this machine."
You're not the only one in the world building generators and electric machinery. Because you choose a cumbersome method of combining coils to cores, that is not customary. And because you put them together as an inseparable subassembly doesn't mean they cannot be separately analyzed. You have discussed different core material so you must realize this.

[Turion]

You can't read, can you? Core. Coil. Two different words. Two different pieces of the generator. Core is iron. Coil is copper. Got it? Now read what I write with that in mind.

Cogging is due to magnets and iron cores. Cogging is totally unaffected by copper coils. Cogging is the same with and without copper coils. Assemble the machine with rotor, magnets and iron cores and you'll see the cogging is present without copper coils.

You really don't know a thing. I have no cores without coils and no coils without cores on this machine. If a coil is present. So is a core. If a core is present, so is a coil. In the whole paragraph you quoted I never ONCE mentioned EITHER word now did I? Take a look. Can YOU read? I never said cogging was affected by copper coils. Show me where I said that? I didn't. I may have said "coils" but if you think about it, that also means CORES when talking about this machine, now doesn't it? If you think there is one without the other, you are sadly mistaken. Yes I know, you are unable to get over that obsession with semantics and using the meaning of words to try and pull your foot out of your mouth, but it doesn't fly with me. If you cannot figure out that "coil" is inclusive of "core" in the context of this machine, you need to get yerself edjicated.

Edit:
Furthermore, you claim that your scheme of magnetic neutralization eliminates magnetic drag at rated speed and output, and since cogging is not a factor, isn't core loss your magnetic drag? This, core loss, is independent of coils.

Be careful reading that. Notice difference between"core" and "coil".

You are the one who keeps insisting that cogging is not a factor, not me. On THIS machine it is definitely a factor. So no, silly boy, core loss is NOT my "magnetic drag". The attraction of the magnets to the iron cores is. Oh wait, you said that up above in red..."Cogging is due to magnets and iron cores." I have said this a number of times, but I do understand your issues with reading so I will say it again. The attraction of the magnets to the iron cores is the magnetic drag. Got it? Core loss is the loss that occurs in a magnetic core due to alternating magnetization, which is the sum of the hysteresis loss and the eddy current loss. I know I already told you that, but I guess that reading problem of yours is always going to be an issue.

Edit 2:
You say
"magnetic attraction of the rotor magnets does NOT go away "at speed" on machines like THIS with no angular momentum, EVER."

Do you really believe that your rotor has no angular momentum at speed?

It has Angular Velocity oh master of semantics. Angular velocity is an observable and MEASURABLE physical condition. You can actually put a meter on it and measure it. Angular momentum is the solution to a mathematical equation involving the moment of inertia x the angular velocity. Momentum cannot be measured, only calculated. You're not the ONLY one who has read a book you know.



Edit 3:
BTW, I never said magnetic attraction goes away at speed. Where did that come from?[/QUOTE]

No, you said cogging goes away at speed. What is cogging you ask? Look at what YOU wrote in red above for the answer... "Cogging is due to magnets and iron cores." Why indeed it is. Just as I have been saying all along. The ATTRACTION between the two.

And by the way, Angular Velocity is speed over time, so it really is "measured" by a meter that does the calculations automatically using a reference point like a timing mark or reflective tape. . I DO understand that. You can "measure" it because that meter exists, but there is no meter to measure Angular Momentum. Are we having fun yet

https://youtu.be/i3f3qFwTId0

[bistander]

I end up posting gibberish? What do you call what YOU just posted. First you say that cogging is irrelevant at speed, but then you say additional coils will affect cogging. If it is irrelevant, how can it affect anything?



Core loss applies to INDIVIDUAL coils and their cores, and is a measurement of loss that occurs in a magnetic core due to alternating magnetization, which is the sum of the hysteresis loss and the eddy current loss. Adding MORE coils does not change that formula. Sorry. Maybe you should "learn the science. So adding more coils does NOT increase core loss.

"

I never said they were the same thing. did I?



You're right, magnetic neutralization DOES work on cogging. You are absolutely correct! Finally you admit what I have been saying all along. Never, ever, ever, ever did I say that magnetic neutralization reduced core losses. But what YOU do not understand about cogging is that although "cogging is irrelevant at speed (NOT TRUE) due to the rotor angular momentum swamping out the torque perturbations" which you probably quoted from Wikipedia or some YouTube video, the magnetic attraction of the rotor magnets does NOT go away "at speed" on machines like THIS with no angular momentum, EVER. That's physics. Learn the science. Motors have gone through YEARS of modifications to figure out ways to reduce the cogging, but that attraction CANNOT be eliminated, and on machines LIKE THIS it translates into a loss of RPM in the motor as well as increased amp draw in the motor. Those are facts. Learn the science. If you had BUILT the thing you would understand what is happening. You can't apply the rules that govern flight to a motorboat. Well, YOU can, but the rest of us live in the real world.

You can't read, can you? Core. Coil. Two different words. Two different pieces of the generator. Core is iron. Coil is copper. Got it? Now read what I write with that in mind.

Cogging is due to magnets and iron cores. Cogging is totally unaffected by copper coils. Cogging is the same with and without copper coils. Assemble the machine with rotor, magnets and iron cores and you'll see the cogging is present without copper coils.

bi

Edit:
Furthermore, you claim that your scheme of magnetic neutralization eliminates magnetic drag at rated speed and output, and since cogging is not a factor, isn't core loss your magnetic drag? This, core loss, is independent of coils.

Be careful reading that. Notice difference between"core" and "coil".

Edit 2:
You say
"magnetic attraction of the rotor magnets does NOT go away "at speed" on machines like THIS with no angular momentum, EVER."

Do you really believe that your rotor has no angular momentum at speed?

Edit 3:
BTW, I never said magnetic attraction goes away at speed. Where did that come from?

[Turion]

Turion,

You're all over the place ending up posting gibberish. The cogging is irrelevant at speed due to the rotor angular momentum swamping out the torque perturbations. The CW and CCW torque of the cog perturbation cancel and the angular momentum keeps the RPM essentially constant, so there is negligible effects on output or input.

It has nothing to do with coils.

Cores (and the magnets) cause cogging. So of course additional cores could affect cogging.

I end up posting gibberish? What do you call what YOU just posted. First you say that cogging is irrelevant at speed, but then you say additional coils will affect cogging. If it is irrelevant, how can it affect anything?

I said in response to your earlier question that adding cores to the generator will increase core loss.

Core loss applies to INDIVIDUAL coils and their cores, and is a measurement of loss that occurs in a magnetic core due to alternating magnetization, which is the sum of the hysteresis loss and the eddy current loss. Adding MORE coils does not change that formula. Sorry. Maybe you should "learn the science. So adding more coils does NOT increase core loss.

"

But core loss is different from cogging.

I never said they were the same thing. did I?

Your "magnetic neutralization" scheme works on cogging but does nothing to reduce core loss. What is so hard to understand? If you know the science involved, it is obvious. If you don't believe it, learn the science, or test the core loss with and without your magnetic neutralization.

You're right, magnetic neutralization DOES work on cogging. You are absolutely correct! Finally you admit what I have been saying all along. Never, ever, ever, ever did I say that magnetic neutralization reduced core losses. But what YOU do not understand about cogging is that although "cogging is irrelevant at speed (NOT TRUE) due to the rotor angular momentum swamping out the torque perturbations" which you probably quoted from Wikipedia or some YouTube video, the magnetic attraction of the rotor magnets does NOT go away "at speed" on machines like THIS with no angular momentum, EVER. That's physics. Learn the science. Motors have gone through YEARS of modifications to figure out ways to reduce the cogging, but that attraction CANNOT be eliminated, and on machines LIKE THIS it translates into a loss of RPM in the motor as well as increased amp draw in the motor. Those are facts. Learn the science. If you had BUILT the thing you would understand what is happening. You can't apply the rules that govern flight to a motorboat. Well, YOU can, but the rest of us live in the real world.

[BroMikey]

Turion,

You're all over the place ending up posting gibberish. The cogging is irrelevant at speed due to the rotor angular momentum swamping out the torque perturbations. The CW and CCW torque of the cog perturbation cancel and the angular momentum keeps the RPM essentially constant, so there is negligible effects on output or input.

The so called AT SPEED you are referring only applies to standard designs where rotors have angular vanes and not magnets. You are once again mixing up apples with oranges. There are no design standards that apply to out builds, Thank God. You are operating inside of the flawed science play pin

[bistander]

You continue to bring up the battery example every time you want to point out that I made a mistake. Yes, I was incorrect in how the cells were wired together. Happy now? If that's the only mistake of mine you can point to after all these years (so you have to keep referring to it over and over) that's pretty interesting. You really have to dig deep for that one don't you?

I don't know if you REALLY just don't get it, or if you are just a shill. You stated above that "cogging is irrelevant to power output under load at rated speed." Once again you are using semantics to cover the fact that you have NO IDEA what this machine is all about. Yes, the machine will put out a specific amount of power (volts times amps) when a specific sized rotor with a specific number of magnets is turning at a specific RPM, and whether the rotor cogs or not IS IRRELEVANT to whether that power is produced IF THE REQUIRED SPEED is reached. OF COURSE the coils will put out the power if the speed is reached. The issue is that the AMP DRAW of the motor, and therefore the INPUT to the system MUST BE INCREASED to REACH that specific RPM on a STANDARD system when MORE COILS ARE ADDED. Otherwise you would simply add more and more coils and increase your output to whatever you want it to be, far exceeding the input. But that can't be done now can it? You CANNOT DO THAT because every coil you add increases the amp draw of the motor to the point where the motor will BURN UP. This will occur whether those coils are connected to a load or NOT. It is the relationship of the magnets to the MASS of core material they are moving past. If you cannot understand this, I am sorry for you. There are a hundred different ways you could investigate this and PROVE it to yourself, just as I have. Or, you can remain ignorant. Your choice. But it is a FACT no matter what YOU say. You think that the attraction of a magnet to iron goes away because the rotor goes fast? Did you find a way to change the laws of physics? All you have done by going fast is shorten the time the magnet is within "range" of the core to be drawn to it. You cannot jump over it or past it. The effect does NOT go away. It can be reduced by the high speed of the rotor, but you have to realize that turning the rotor at high speed just puts the NEXT magnet into range quicker, and the next, and the next. Do you ever stop to actually think about this stuff and experiment? Or do you just spew out your YouTube knowledge so constantly that your brain has no time to spend actually thinking because it is too busy working your mouth?

Turion,

You're all over the place ending up posting gibberish. The cogging is irrelevant at speed due to the rotor angular momentum swamping out the torque perturbations. The CW and CCW torque of the cog perturbation cancel and the angular momentum keeps the RPM essentially constant, so there is negligible effects on output or input.

It has nothing to do with coils.

Cores (and the magnets) cause cogging. So of course additional cores could affect cogging. I said in response to your earlier question that adding cores to the generator will increase core loss. But core loss is different from cogging. Your "magnetic neutralization" scheme works on cogging but does nothing to reduce core loss. What is so hard to understand? If you know the science involved, it is obvious. If you don't believe it, learn the science, or test the core loss with and without your magnetic neutralization.

Regards,
bi

[Turion]

You continue to bring up the battery example every time you want to point out that I made a mistake. Yes, I was incorrect in how the cells were wired together. Happy now? If that's the only mistake of mine you can point to after all these years (so you have to keep referring to it over and over) that's pretty interesting. You really have to dig deep for that one don't you?

I don't know if you REALLY just don't get it, or if you are just a shill. You stated above that "cogging is irrelevant to power output under load at rated speed." Once again you are using semantics to cover the fact that you have NO IDEA what this machine is all about. Yes, the machine will put out a specific amount of power (volts times amps) when a specific sized rotor with a specific number of magnets is turning at a specific RPM, and whether the rotor cogs or not IS IRRELEVANT to whether that power is produced IF THE REQUIRED SPEED is reached. OF COURSE the coils will put out the power if the speed is reached. The issue is that the AMP DRAW of the motor, and therefore the INPUT to the system MUST BE INCREASED to REACH that specific RPM on a STANDARD system when MORE COILS ARE ADDED. Otherwise you would simply add more and more coils and increase your output to whatever you want it to be, far exceeding the input. But that can't be done now can it? You CANNOT DO THAT because every coil you add increases the amp draw of the motor to the point where the motor will BURN UP. This will occur whether those coils are connected to a load or NOT. It is the relationship of the magnets to the MASS of core material they are moving past. If you cannot understand this, I am sorry for you. There are a hundred different ways you could investigate this and PROVE it to yourself, just as I have. Or, you can remain ignorant. Your choice. But it is a FACT no matter what YOU say. You think that the attraction of a magnet to iron goes away because the rotor goes fast? Did you find a way to change the laws of physics? All you have done by going fast is shorten the time the magnet is within "range" of the core to be drawn to it. You cannot jump over it or past it. The effect does NOT go away. It can be reduced by the high speed of the rotor, but you have to realize that turning the rotor at high speed just puts the NEXT magnet into range quicker, and the next, and the next. Do you ever stop to actually think about this stuff and experiment? Or do you just spew out your YouTube knowledge so constantly that your brain has no time to spend actually thinking because it is too busy working your mouth?

[BroMikey]

No, what is pitiful is when your buddy quotes the Word of God to scorn me for simply disagreeing with your waco generator theories.




And speaking of answered questions, why is it you rarely answer a question from me when I almost always answer your questions?

Regards,
bi

I always answer non redundant questions. I don't know what difference it makes because you are not a builder. Why what do you want to know?BTW that verse I quoted was not my own writing. It will help others to understand who they are speaking with.

[bistander]

I didn't take your statements "out of context" and you know it. Your meaning was quite clear. "IRRELEVANT TO OPERATION" is fairly clear, don't you think? Doesn't matter WHAT the context. Unless of course you were saying they ARE important and they DO have significant impact. In that case, I agree with you. I have already "discredited" your "opinion" by simply running the machine on my bench and looking at the results. I don't need to prove it to YOU to discredit it. All I need to do is see FOR MYSELF what is true and what is false. In "my opinion" YOUR opinion is worth less than nothing. Your statements don't matter. Your opinion doesn't matter. YOU don't matter. What matters is the truth, and I know what the truth is. Get back to your YouTube videos and leave the people actually BUILDING things alone. Quit wasting our time arguing semantics. As I said, when the machine gets here today I will begin assembly. It may take me a couple days depending on the difficulty of connecting the motor and what I have to do to make that happen. I am in a very small town with limited resources, so if I have to have machine work done to make that happen, it could be a bit. We will see. I will shoot a video of as much as I can, including the "inputs and outputs" and send Aaron the link. He can take it from there. I owe him that for backing out of the conference. But I'm not sorry I did that. My ex wife got covid and other folks I know have suffered and are still suffering despite recovering, so I'm glad I choose to remain isolated. I owe YOU nothing. If Aaron chooses to share results, that's fine. If he chooses NOT TO, that is fine with me also. Either way, he will see what I have seen.

Turion,

I've said many times and stand by:

Your schemes of "magnetic neutralization" and "speed-up under load" do not contribute any performance enhancement to the generator when it is running at rated speed and load.

Your "magnetic neutralization" does appear to reduce cogging. But cogging is irrelevant as to power output under load at rated speed.

What is so hard to understand about what I say? It is not the same as "IRRELEVANT TO OPERATION", because "operation" may include starting from standstill where mitigation of cogging could be useful. So there may be some relevance, but not in the context to which I was referring.

And we've seen several times that which you witness on your bench to be quite different from reality, like the "6-cell LiFePO4 battery". Remember? It doesn't mean much to hear you say that you proved it to yourself. You see what you want to see, which is often far different than reality. Real researchers welcome scrutiny and questions and don't avoid and hide their experiments/data.

So please, prove your claim: 2000 watts of real power output using less than 300 watts of input.

Regards,
bi

[Turion]

I didn't take your statements "out of context" and you know it. Your meaning was quite clear. "IRRELEVANT TO OPERATION" is fairly clear, don't you think? Doesn't matter WHAT the context. Unless of course you were saying they ARE important and they DO have significant impact. In that case, I agree with you. I have already "discredited" your "opinion" by simply running the machine on my bench and looking at the results. I don't need to prove it to YOU to discredit it. All I need to do is see FOR MYSELF what is true and what is false. In "my opinion" YOUR opinion is worth less than nothing. Your statements don't matter. Your opinion doesn't matter. YOU don't matter. What matters is the truth, and I know what the truth is. Get back to your YouTube videos and leave the people actually BUILDING things alone. Quit wasting our time arguing semantics. As I said, when the machine gets here today I will begin assembly. It may take me a couple days depending on the difficulty of connecting the motor and what I have to do to make that happen. I am in a very small town with limited resources, so if I have to have machine work done to make that happen, it could be a bit. We will see. I will shoot a video of as much as I can, including the "inputs and outputs" and send Aaron the link. He can take it from there. I owe him that for backing out of the conference. But I'm not sorry I did that. My ex wife got covid and other folks I know have suffered and are still suffering despite recovering, so I'm glad I choose to remain isolated. I owe YOU nothing. If Aaron chooses to share results, that's fine. If he chooses NOT TO, that is fine with me also. Either way, he will see what I have seen.

[bistander]

bi,
You have said it many times in many ways, but I quoted ONE:
"It is much like your magnetic neutralization and speed-up with load which are also irrelevant to operation. That's why I try not to argue about those because they don't matter."

That is a LIE; plain and simple. It is based on a total LACK of knowledge, understanding, and experience with these systems. I've built them. I've tested them on the bench. All YOU have done is babble about them. Every video of my machine running in the last five years has had magnetic neutralization in place, and I KNOW what a difference it makes. You do not. Oh, unless you have actually BUILT and tested a machine, which we both know you haven't done. It doesn't take an electrical engineer to read an amp meter and see what the amp draw of the motor is in both conditions. It doesn't take an electrical engineer to read an RPM meter and see what the RPM is in both conditions. So babble all you want. Anyone with half a brain will take the results of actual tests over your worthless opinion. You have a good day now.

Bro,
You can't argue with someone who gets all his information and bases his opinions on YouTube videos of others debunking this stuff rather than building it and running it on his own bench. He's a YouTube expert, and that's all he will ever be.

Turion,

What you have misquoted from me by taking out of context in the first paragraph above is hardly a lie. I say it is true, but you can call it my opinion if you want. You can simply discredit it by proving it false, but you refuse to do that. So run your generator at load with and without "magnetic neutralization" and "speed-up under load", measure input and output, present the data and show the world who is right.

Regards,
bi

[bistander]

Didn't answer the question did you? This is what you always do when you know you are wrong. Avoid the issue and attempt to twist my words around. Pitiful.

No, what is pitiful is when your buddy quotes the Word of God to scorn me for simply disagreeing with your waco generator theories.

... Filled with all manner of wickedness.
Romans 1:27 even the men turned from the natural use of the woman, men with men.... being filled with All ungodliness. It is written and you have been pegged.

And speaking of answered questions, why is it you rarely answer a question from me when I almost always answer your questions?

Regards,
bi

[Turion]

bi,
You have said it many times in many ways, but I quoted ONE:
"It is much like your magnetic neutralization and speed-up with load which are also irrelevant to operation. That's why I try not to argue about those because they don't matter."

That is a LIE; plain and simple. It is based on a total LACK of knowledge, understanding, and experience with these systems. I've built them. I've tested them on the bench. All YOU have done is babble about them. Every video of my machine running in the last five years has had magnetic neutralization in place, and I KNOW what a difference it makes. You do not. Oh, unless you have actually BUILT and tested a machine, which we both know you haven't done. It doesn't take an electrical engineer to read an amp meter and see what the amp draw of the motor is in both conditions. It doesn't take an electrical engineer to read an RPM meter and see what the RPM is in both conditions. So babble all you want. Anyone with half a brain will take the results of actual tests over your worthless opinion. You have a good day now.

Bro,
You can't argue with someone who gets all his information and bases his opinions on YouTube videos of others debunking this stuff rather than building it and running it on his own bench. He's a YouTube expert, and that's all he will ever be.

[bistander]

Didn't answer the question did you? This is what you always do when you know you are wrong. Avoid the issue and attempt to twist my words around. Pitiful.

Can't you read? I answered it precisely.