The bistander thread

[altrez]

Here are this mornings test results.This is test number 3.

Test setup was LIFEP04 12.8v 16Ah 204.8Wh / Razor motor MY 1016-B / PWM to control speed and amp draw / boost module set to 14v. RPM on motor was 1585 and the amp draw on the battery was .775ma I checked the amp draw and RPM's during the test and adjusted to keep them steady if I needed to.

BK601 at Start:
100%
VO 13.35v
VL 12.83v
037 mohm

Fluke Voltage test:
13.36v

BK601 at end after 30 minute rest:
100%
VO 13.30
VL 12.78
037 mohm

Fluke Voltage test:
13.32v

The next 3 tests will be with the load in the split-the-positive configuration. As posted by Turion. The next 3 test will be done with an amp draw of ~.775ma

-Altrez

[altrez]

Hi Altrez,
For 30 minutes at 1/2 Amp, you use 1/4 Ah. On the 16 Ah battery, that amounts to 1/64 (1.6%) of the capacity. It is nearly impossible to see a change in OC Voltage with that small of a delta SOC with LiFePO4 due to its flat characteristic curve. Small difference in internal resistance could be caused by temperature.

I'm not sure what the objective of this test is and Turion is no help. But comparisons involving SOC of batteries is always difficult, even more so with LiFePO4. I suggest using a wattmeter or two capable of recording watt hours. Look at energy out of battery and into the load for equal time periods for case 1 vs case 2.

Regards,
bi

Hello bistander,

I am doing the tests the way that Dave posted because that is what I said I would do. I plan to try and do them as close to perfect as I can and then we can all review the results. I have some watt meters that I could add but want to do this first round as basic as possible. And I agree with you on the SOC, lets see what tomorrow brings on day 3 test 3.

-Altrez

[bistander]

Hi Altrez,
For 30 minutes at 1/2 Amp, you use 1/4 Ah. On the 16 Ah battery, that amounts to 1/64 (1.6%) of the capacity. It is nearly impossible to see a change in OC Voltage with that small of a delta SOC with LiFePO4 due to its flat characteristic curve. Small difference in internal resistance could be caused by temperature.

I'm not sure what the objective of this test is and Turion is no help. But comparisons involving SOC of batteries is always difficult, even more so with LiFePO4. I suggest using a wattmeter or two capable of recording watt hours. Look at energy out of battery and into the load for equal time periods for case 1 vs case 2.

Regards,
bi

[altrez]

Here are this mornings test results. I am going to try again tomorrow morning with an increased load.

Test setup was LIFEP04 12.8v 16Ah 204.8Wh / Razor motor MY 1016-B / PWM to control speed and amp draw / boost module set to 14v. RPM on motor was 894 and the amp draw on the battery was .498ma I checked the amp draw and RPM's during the test and adjusted to keep them steady if I needed to.

BK601 at Start:
100%
VO 13.35v
VL 12.74v
044 mohm

Fluke Voltage test:
13.36v

BK601 at end after 30 minute rest:
100%
VO 13.32
VL 12.80
037 mohm

Flue Voltage test:
13.33v

I am charging the battery in the evening to full this seems to be around 13.56v when the changer says its done. All tests are done in the morning after an overnight rest period for the battery in testing.

-Altrez

[altrez]

My test results are not what I expected. The main issue is that I did not use a big enough load on the battery. For those who are interested this was the result. Each test was preformed 3 times on the battery before and after testing.

Test setup was LIFEP04 12.8v 16Ah 204.8Wh / Razor motor MY 1016-B / PWM to control speed and amp draw / boost module set to 14v. RPM on motor was 390 and the amp draw on the battery was .178ma

BK601 at Start:
98%
VO 13.21v
VL 12.60v
044 mohm

Fluke Voltage test:
13.22v

BK601 at end after 30 minute rest:
100%
VO 13.18
VL 12.66
037 mohm

Flue Voltage test:
13.19v

I am going to crank up the load and try it again in the morning.

-Altrez

[altrez]

Hello Everyone,

I am getting everything together for the first part of the test. I am using a spare battery to get it setup so I will not have to adjust anything while I am running the main test. Also I am going to control the RPM's of the motor with a PWM to keep everything as close to perfect and fair as possible.





Test part 1:

Test battery with BK 601 Run the motor from the boost converter hooked up like normal for 30 minutes, let rest for 30 minutes take notes and then charge the battery and let rest for 12 hours.

-Altrez

[BroMikey]

bro,
Want to find old threads I started. Click on my name. The page I took a photo of will come up.
Turion.png

Near the top click on "About" and then down at the bottom of the page (scroll down) you will see a link that says "Find all Started Topics" You can scroll through those until you get to whatever "old" thread you want to look at.

Oh I didn't know that thx. Aaron didn't tell me that. He must be building. I'll let you know. BRB

[Turion]

bro,
Want to find old threads I started. Click on my name. The page I took a photo of will come up.
Turion.png

Near the top click on "About" and then down at the bottom of the page (scroll down) you will see a link that says "Find all Started Topics" You can scroll through those until you get to whatever "old" thread you want to look at.

[Sawt2]

I can't seem to find the BASIC FREE ENERGY DEVICE thread anymore. I guess it vanished. All that work gone.
Those old threads are where you delivered so much and promised us new things. Shame.

It’s still there

[bistander]

Any 12 volt load should work.

bi,
You are correct about the link. I sent the wrong one. But I am not using the cells the way you indicated. I actually built a 22.4 volt battery. The reason being, a 24 volt inverter will still operate on less than 24 volts, and if my return to the battery is 24 volts, then that is a couple volts over the "standing voltage" of a 22.4V battery so it keeps it in a charge state. I don't have time to work on that project right now though. Still busy on my house. Getting close though. See, when you are right, and seek to help, I am willing to acknowledge it and respond accordingly. So much so that I won't even mention you know what.

Turion,
All I ever did was to try to help and try to learn something.
So what cells and protection/management scheme are you using?
Regards,
bi

[Turion]

Any 12 volt load should work.

bi,
You are correct about the link. I sent the wrong one. But I am not using the cells the way you indicated. I actually built a 22.4 volt battery. The reason being, a 24 volt inverter will still operate on less than 24 volts, and if my return to the battery is 24 volts, then that is a couple volts over the "standing voltage" of a 22.4V battery so it keeps it in a charge state. I don't have time to work on that project right now though. Still busy on my house. Getting close though. See, when you are right, and seek to help, I am willing to acknowledge it and respond accordingly. So much so that I won't even mention you know what.

[bistander]

altrez,
I purchased ONE Lithium IronPhosphate battery, and ended up taking it apart because the BMS wouldn't allow me to do what I wanted to do. Since that time I have only purchased cells and put my own battery together. These are the BMS chips I am using with the cells.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Hi Turion,
I thought something was odd about your post when I first read it and viewed the "BMS chips" link. That's why I inquired about how you connected them perviously only to get insulted in a childish manner by you. So I contacted the seller from the Amazon link. In a reply this is what was stated:
"This product cannot be used in series, but can be used in parallel. If you want to use 3 batteries in series, you must use a 3S protection board. The link is as follows:"

Although you didn't specify, your post inferred that you acquired individual cells and assembled them into a multiple cell battery using the linked chips as BMS. Furthermore, since the LiFePO4 battery you disassembled a while ago, when I helped you identify the cells, was a 12V battery with 4S (4 cells in series), it's reasonable to think you are now talking about building a 4S, 12V battery. The product in your link is a 1S PCB, Protection Circuit Board for 1 Series cell. You call it a BMS. There is often confusion between PCB, BMS & PCM. Read more:
"Li-ion, Li-Poly and LiFePO4 battery packs should be used with a protection circuit to prevent the cell from over charging or over dis-charging. Choosing the correct circuit and applying it appropriately is vital to the longevity your batteries and your own safety.

For high drain Lithium batteries, protection chip board is not a necessary for protecting the battery from over-charged if a good quality balance charger is being used on charging the battery. But it still needs attention not to over-discharged the battery without using the protection ship board.

High drain and high voltage LiFePO4 & Lithium battery packs with a battery BMS (battery management system) could avoid over-charged / over discharged, and also get balance monitoring from the system, with the balancing management, it will greatly keep good consistence and extend battery life, safe and secure the high discharge current enviorment.

The protection chip board can not be used on replacing batteries for digital camera, laptop or power tools. The electronic devices like digital camera, Laptop or power tool will only work with original chip boards."
From: http://www.batterysupports.com/batte...-pcm-c-32.html

I am just trying to help you and members/readers who are not familiar with Lithium cells/batteries and associated parts and procedures. Lithium batteries are great. They or some other "advanced" cells will undoubtedly eventually obsolete Pb-Acid cells. But the Lithium cell is more sensitive to damage from abuse than Pb-Acid. It is quite easy to ruin a cell from overcharge or overdischarge or overheat. And they tend to be costly, and sometimes prone to combustion. So learn how to use them safely.

I have years of experience in building, testing and using Lithium batteries. But don't take my word. Research the subject for yourself. And be careful who you do take advise from.

Regards,
bi

[altrez]

Altrez,
There is a very SIMPLE test you can do to prove what I have been saying. Not sure if I brought this up before, but I might have. I talked to a lot of different people, including by email, so I am always running off at the mouth. Anyway, this is the test, and it requires NO special motor to get results, although a pulse motor will make the results more obvious.

Charge your battery, let it rest, and use your battery analyzer to measure it and record your results.
Now, connect a simple boost module to the battery and set the output to 14 volts. Run your motor at a constant (measured) RPM for a set amount of time...say 30 minutes connected directly to the positive and negative output of the boost module. When finished, let the battery rest and measure your results after the battery has recovered.

Recharge the battery and let it rest.
Set the output of the boost module to around 26 volts. Connect the positive out of the boost module to one side of the motor, and the other side of the motor to the positive of the battery. You may need to increase the output of the boost module to get it to run the motor at the same RPM as it ran directly off the boost module rather than between the positives as it is running NOW. If necessary, make the voltage adjustment to get the same RPM. Run the motor for the SAME amount of time at the SAME RPM. Then let the battery rest for the SAME amount of time and measure the battery.
Simple test. No one should be able to argue with the results. But they will.

Turion,

I have a few of the Razor motors in stock. I was curious can it be any load? If so I was going to use my load tester for really dialing in the load.

Thanks for the help!

-Altrez

[altrez]

Hello All,

I picked up these boost modules to test out.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

-Altrez

[BroMikey]

I can't seem to find the BASIC FREE ENERGY DEVICE thread anymore. I guess it vanished. All that work gone.
Those old threads are where you delivered so much and promised us new things. Shame.