The bistander thread

[BroMikey]

I wouldn’t have to stop and write stuff down and when I got done, my phone had died. Will try again when it is charged.

Let us know. Hear is Permalloy history

http://www.vias.org/albert_ecomm/aec...ation_009.html

[Turion]

I don’t remember. I’d have to look at the # on the spool and look it up. We tested several. We order by #. Spool is in Sacramento at my buddy’s place. He will be bringing it out on Friday.

I did ALL the testing today while my wife was at lunch with my camera running so I wouldn’t have to stop and write stuff down and when I got done, my phone had died. Will try again when it is charged.

[BroMikey]

I have no more of that permalloy core material and a new spool is $700.00,

I could use one of my iron core coils.

They do not put out the correct amount on this machine either.

I could reduce the windings by 30%, which would be similar to ADDING 30%, if THAT will work.

I already have five items in my Amazon cart, so this would make six and that would be the end of my my monthly budge

Not unusual to spend it all the first day.

A new gauss meter is $144.00. It would be here Thursday. Let me know ASAP if you need that done and I will order it.

I still think it could be that the old machine has N52 magnets on the rotor and this one has N42, but 12 magnets outputting more than 24 really baffles me.

Is that permalloy wire 70/30 or 60/40 or 50/50 iron nickel? No need to spend $700 on the wrong blend.

[Turion]

Thanks,
If the RMS meter reading appears consistent with the scope we can just use the meter for open circuit voltage on the coil. I would like to get a curve of voltage vs RPM, say using values at 500, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500 and 3000. As long as you record actual reading for the voltage measurements, the RPM values are targets. Just get close, like 936 is close enough to 1000, but record the exact RPM number. Xcel will smooth out the curve. I guess I'd like to see an expanded screen shot of a single cycle to examine the hash at the peaks and slopes of the rise and fall. Mid range RPM is ok, just record value. Please mark the coil so repeat tests are on the very same coil. I don't see need to go above 3kRPM.


After seeing that no-load voltage vs RPM curve, the same thing tested using a fixed load for comparison will help determine if coil impedance is causing excessive voltage drop.

Then similar tests, no-load and loaded using the 30% longer coil/core should explain why output dropped.

bi, I killed the 30% longer coil. I actually took the core out of it and cut it in half to use in another experiment I am working on. I have no more of that permalloy core material and a new spool is $700.00 so I wanted to use every drop of it. Since the voltage in that coil was SO MUCH less than the old iron core and also far less than the new coil, I saw no value in it. Adding length to the core and more wire was not a solution to my problem. Even if the problem gets fixed, I don't see the coil that was only putting out 14-16 volts suddenly outputting 130 volts. It will be hard enough getting one putting out 96 volts to output 130. The wire I wound onto a large spool so it can be used on other projects.

I could use one of my iron core coils. They do not put out the correct amount on this machine either. I could reduce the windings by 30%, which would be similar to ADDING 30%, if THAT will work. I don't mind ruining one of those coils since I will never use them for anything except projects, and I can always solder the wire back on.

With a magnet (on rotor) TDC over the core, please use your gauss meter on the back end of the core, for both coil/cores. Please use the same rotor magnet for both, as it's possible magnets may differ. Do you have a spare magnet you can measure or reach the face of a magnet on the rotor with the meter probe? I'd like to know how much of the flux goes all the way through the core.

My gauss meter is old and doesn't have a probe. I could stick it in the coil hole next to the rotor, but I wouldn't be able to see the reading. I can order a new one tomorrow as it is the 1st of the month, and I get money the first of every month for stuff. I already have five items in my Amazon cart, so this would make six and that would be the end of my my monthly budget. Not unusual to spend it all the first day. A new gauss meter is $144.00. It would be here Thursday. Let me know ASAP if you need that done and I will order it.

I am fairly certain that the low voltage is due to;
1) low flux, caused by the strange cording (4 poles per coil) or flux leakage.
Or
2) excessive impedance in the coil.
Or
3) combination of 1 and 2.

The series of no-load and loaded generated voltage curves should give the data to tell. And hopefully point towards corrective action.
bi

ps
When you test a single coil/core, are there adjacent or opposite cores in place? Please note if so, or not. Also I think you should test if an opposite mounted core, or adjacent one, affects the flux in the coil/core on test. This should be easily done by checking a few points against the voltage curves. Hate to develop a fix and have it fail because we overlooked something like interaction with other cores. Think about other things which might go unnoticed now but interfere later.

I can run it at the different RPM's with no other coils. Then with coils on both sides, then with a coil opposite it and compare. This is going to be several hours of testing!n I still think it could be that the old machine has N52 magnets on the rotor and this one has N42, but 12 magnets outputting more than 24 really baffles me.

[Turion]

Math. I hate math. I hate it so much I would pay someone to count to ten for me so I don't have to do it.

But, If I wound a single strand of #23 AWG (.0226 DIAMETER) wire around the bobbin and the next layer went directly on top of the first layer....

If we assume the diameter of the wound coil is 3" and the tube that makes up the bobbin is 1" there is 2" of wire.

Since the wire is .0226 in diameter, 2" divided by .O226 means there would be 88 turns of wire if each one was directly on top of the one below it to get from 1" diameter to 3" diameter.

Since the coil is about 3 1/16 of an inch long between the two end pieces, that is 3.0625 divided by .0226 which equals 135.50 winds from one end of the coil to the other to make one layer of wire on the bobbin. So 88 turns high x 135 winds long = 11,880 turns. These coils are not perfectly wound by ANY stretch of the imagination, so I would assume probably 10% MINIMUM loss of winds, if not more. Which would leave 11,762 winds OR LESS on my coils. But someone better at math might have a better way to figure this out. I chose the simplest method I could think of.

[bistander]

I do not know number of turns per coil. I've never counted that.




If you look in the far right column and go down to the bobbin that comes 245 to a case, that's the one I am using.
15/16 is the the outside diameter of the "tube" the coil is wound on. 3 1/16 " in length between coil ends. Outside diameter of the coil (wire) I wound is 3".

I will have to run the machine again, get you a screen shot, measure with an RMS meter and get the RPM all at the same time. I did not output full voltage from the coil for the video because all you asked for was a wave form. If full voltage output is important, let me know, otherwise I will basically do what I did before. I might have to reduce some things to get the full wave form on the screen at full voltage output. And it really WON'T be full voltage output since I never run it faster than 2800 RPM, although I have had it up to 4,000 just for fun. It may not be until much later tonight. My wife is working from home today so I try to not run things while she is in the office right next to my shop.

Thanks,
If the RMS meter reading appears consistent with the scope we can just use the meter for open circuit voltage on the coil. I would like to get a curve of voltage vs RPM, say using values at 500, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500 and 3000. As long as you record actual reading for the voltage measurements, the RPM values are targets. Just get close, like 936 is close enough to 1000, but record the exact RPM number. Xcel will smooth out the curve. I guess I'd like to see an expanded screen shot of a single cycle to examine the hash at the peaks and slopes of the rise and fall. Mid range RPM is ok, just record value. Please mark the coil so repeat tests are on the very same coil. I don't see need to go above 3kRPM.

After seeing that no-load voltage vs RPM curve, the same thing tested using a fixed load for comparison will help determine if coil impedance is causing excessive voltage drop.

Then similar tests, no-load and loaded using the 30% longer coil/core should explain why output dropped.

With a magnet (on rotor) TDC over the core, please use your gauss meter on the back end of the core, for both coil/cores. Please use the same rotor magnet for both, as it's possible magnets may differ. Do you have a spare magnet you can measure or reach the face of a magnet on the rotor with the meter probe? I'd like to know how much of the flux goes all the way through the core.

I am fairly certain that the low voltage is due to;
1) low flux, caused by the strange cording (4 poles per coil) or flux leakage.
Or
2) excessive impedance in the coil.
Or
3) combination of 1 and 2.

The series of no-load and loaded generated voltage curves should give the data to tell. And hopefully point towards corrective action.
bi

ps
When you test a single coil/core, are there adjacent or opposite cores in place? Please note if so, or not. Also I think you should test if an opposite mounted core, or adjacent one, affects the flux in the coil/core on test. This should be easily done by checking a few points against the voltage curves. Hate to develop a fix and have it fail because we overlooked something like interaction with other cores. Think about other things which might go unnoticed now but interfere later.

[BroMikey]

This is how I calculate, by averaging. I am not perfect at the end but you get the idea. This one was a 51 strand so 2 extra strands, but all I wanted to find was the general spool size needed

[Turion]

I do not know number of turns per coil. I've never counted that.

http://www.norticinc.com/plastic-spool/

If you look in the far right column and go down to the bobbin that comes 245 to a case, that's the one I am using.
15/16 is the the outside diameter of the "tube" the coil is wound on. 3 1/16 " in length between coil ends. Outside diameter of the coil (wire) I wound is 3".

I will have to run the machine again, get you a screen shot, measure with an RMS meter and get the RPM all at the same time. I did not output full voltage from the coil for the video because all you asked for was a wave form. If full voltage output is important, let me know, otherwise I will basically do what I did before. I might have to reduce some things to get the full wave form on the screen at full voltage output. And it really WON'T be full voltage output since I never run it faster than 2800 RPM, although I have had it up to 4,000 just for fun. It may not be until much later tonight. My wife is working from home today so I try to not run things while she is in the office right next to my shop.

[bistander]

Cores are 3/4 diameter by 3 1/2 long

https://youtu.be/Iy16_dbVuJ0

Thanks Turion.
For some analysis I'll need the number of turns per coil. I am assuming you do not know since you only ever mentioned wire length. I can figure a close estimate if I have the actual coil size. Can you link to the bobbin manufacturer's specification or dimensional drawing? It appears that the diameter of the wound copper coil is a bit less than the spool flange. What is the actual coil outer diameter?

What was your RPM for the scope trace? Also a RMS voltage meter reading would be useful. Waveform looks pretty nice.
bi
i

[BroMikey]

The battered lover ( The gender challenged only club)

Hi Turion,
.......have I been uncivil, called you any name or insulted you.
bi

[Turion]

Keep mentioning my name. I can cut and paste all day long.

bi,
YOU ARE AN IDIOT. SIMPLE. YOU TWIST EVERY STATEMENT I MAKE. YOU TAKE THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT. YOU NITPICK MY WORD CHOICE. YOU WHITEWASH THE MISTAKES YOU MAKE OR OUTRIGHT IGNORE THEM. I’VE HAD MY FILL OF IT.

YOU HIDE IN THE DARK AND DISCREDIT THE WORK OF OTHERS, WHILE CONTRIBUTING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO THIS WORK. SO I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR YOU WHATSOEVER. NOT EVEN A TINY BIT.

IN MY BOOK, SOMEONE WHO HIDES IN THE DARK LIKE YOU DO IS A PATHETIC LOSER. AND DON ’T GIVE ME THAT B.S. ABOUT WHO YOU ARE NOT BEING IMPORTANT. WHEN YOU CALL SOMEONE A LIAR, A FRAUD AND A CON MAN WITHOUT REVEALING WHO YOU ARE, YOU ARE THE LOWEST SCUM ON THE PLANET.

AND FROM NOW ON, THESE ARE THE ONLY KINDS OF STATEMENTS YOU ARE GOING TO GET FROM ME. AND EVERY TIME YOU MENTION ME OR MY WORK ON THIS THREAD, YOU WILL GET A REPEAT OF EVERYTHING I HAVE SAID HERE JUST TO REMIND EVERYONE OF THE KIND OF PERSON. YOU ARE. IN FACT, I WILL PROBABLY JUST CUT AND PASTE MOST OF IT TO SAVE MYSELF TIME. AND MAYBE I WILL DO IT ALL IN CAPS AND / OR GIANT SIZED TYPE TO MAKE MY POSITION CLEAR..

TOO BAD YOUR HUEVOS AREN’T AS BIG AS YOUR MOUTH, OTHERWISE YOU MIGHT COME OUT OF THE DARK AND ACT LIKE A MAN. OOPS, I FORGOT. NO TIENES HUEVOS, SENOR EUNUCO. QUE LASTIMA, POBRECITO!

[bistander]

bi,
YOU ARE AN IDIOT. SIMPLE. ...

A PATHETIC LOSER. ... YOU ARE THE LOWEST SCUM ON THE PLANET. ...

02/05/2022 ... I will respond. I am always happy to be civil when I am not being called a liar, fraud and con man. ..

02/05/2022 ... I am always happy to be civil. ...

Hi Turion,
You'll notice that not once since this statement of yours have I been uncivil, called you any name or insulted you. Yet you are not happy to be civil, are you? You can't have things your way so act like a child, attempting to block me from expressing my opinion and the freedom of expression. You certainly must feel that you have the right to make statements that are incorrect, why shouldn't I have the right to make factually correct statements? Your behavior is an attempt to censor me. That seems a bit un-American.
bi

[Turion]

Keep mentioning my name. I can cut and paste all day long.

bi,
YOU ARE AN IDIOT. SIMPLE. YOU TWIST EVERY STATEMENT I MAKE. YOU TAKE THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT. YOU NITPICK MY WORD CHOICE. YOU WHITEWASH THE MISTAKES YOU MAKE OR OUTRIGHT IGNORE THEM. I’VE HAD MY FILL OF IT.

YOU HIDE IN THE DARK AND DISCREDIT THE WORK OF OTHERS, WHILE CONTRIBUTING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO THIS WORK. SO I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR YOU WHATSOEVER. NOT EVEN A TINY BIT.

IN MY BOOK, SOMEONE WHO HIDES IN THE DARK LIKE YOU DO IS A PATHETIC LOSER. AND DON ’T GIVE ME THAT B.S. ABOUT WHO YOU ARE NOT BEING IMPORTANT. WHEN YOU CALL SOMEONE A LIAR, A FRAUD AND A CON MAN WITHOUT REVEALING WHO YOU ARE, YOU ARE THE LOWEST SCUM ON THE PLANET.

AND FROM NOW ON, THESE ARE THE ONLY KINDS OF STATEMENTS YOU ARE GOING TO GET FROM ME. AND EVERY TIME YOU MENTION ME OR MY WORK ON THIS THREAD, YOU WILL GET A REPEAT OF EVERYTHING I HAVE SAID HERE JUST TO REMIND EVERYONE OF THE KIND OF PERSON. YOU ARE. IN FACT, I WILL PROBABLY JUST CUT AND PASTE MOST OF IT TO SAVE MYSELF TIME. AND MAYBE I WILL DO IT ALL IN CAPS AND / OR GIANT SIZED TYPE TO MAKE MY POSITION CLEAR..

TOO BAD YOUR HUEVOS AREN’T AS BIG AS YOUR MOUTH, OTHERWISE YOU MIGHT COME OUT OF THE DARK AND ACT LIKE A MAN. OOPS, I FORGOT. NO TIENES HUEVOS, SENOR EUNUCO. QUE LASTIMA, POBRECITO!

[BroMikey]

I.... correct falsehoods.

you guys pile it on.

You can call the truth a turd.........

bi

And this is civil? Poor ole bi is so abused. You will go without any consideration from this point on. Your experiments suck

[bistander]

02/05/2022 ... I will respond. I am always happy to be civil when I am not being called a liar, fraud and con man. ..

Hi Turion,
You'll notice that not once since this statement of yours have I been uncivil, called you any name or insulted you.
bi