The bistander thread

[bistander]

That's right Mr. Dave.

I did some tests with a core and magnets of the N rotor, on the opposite side of the rotor at 180°.
...

Hi Turion & alexelectric,.

I've been telling you that efforts you spend on "magnetic neutralization" are a waste of time. You (Turion and I assume Alex also) claim that the force of attraction between the magnet on the rotor and the core on the stator constitutes "magnetic drag" and is responsible for load on the prime mover. This attraction force occurs at alignment of the magnet and core, a position called TDC (Top Dead Center) and also either side of TDC rotation. This attraction force when not at TDC manifest in torque on the shaft, center of rotation. When at TDC, the attraction force is axially directed, perpendicular to the plane of the rotor, and parallel to the centerline of rotation (shaft), therefore torque from the attraction at TDC is zero. Zero torque is zero load on the prime mover.

So the attraction force between the magnet and core does load the prime mover when not at TDC, however,, the torque causing this loading is opposite in direction for clockwise (CW) vs counterclockwise (CCW) displacement from TDC. Since the force is symmetrical about TDC, the torque imposed on the rotor is net zero per rotation from this attraction. Hence my contention that magnet to core attraction is irrelevant to power.

This attraction of magnet to core is cogging. I never claimed it went away or disappeared at speed, just that it is irrelevant to power. Turion has acknowledged that yes, cogging torque approaching TDC does offset departure from TDC and rotor momentum can smooth it to where it can be unnoticed, but insists that the attractive force at TDC still loads the prime mover. He claims this force between the magnet and core at TDC resists rotation so an opposing force will eliminate this opposition and power loss associated with it. He doesn't believe me or Newton that there is already an opposing force in place.

Newton tells us that for every force there is an equal and opposite force. So at TDC, there is a force of attraction on the core and on the magnet in the direction perpendicular to the plane of the rotor and parallel to the centerline of rotation, shaft. The magnet experiences a force towards the core. Where is the equal and opposite force? It is provided by the adhesive holding the magnet in place on the rotor. And then the rotor to the shaft. Then the shaft to the bearing. Then the bearing to the stator. Then to the core. And finally back to the magnet. An equal and opposite force. Newton is happy, equilibrium. The opposition force is already there in the structure, otherwise the magnet and core would move together. The fact that there exists a gap between the magnet and core proves there is a counteracting force.

I've based the above argument on the case of a single magnet on the rotor and a single core in the stator. It's a valid argument and holds. However it occurred to me having read this recent exchange with Alex, that there is another equal and opposite force on the particular design used in Turion's big black generator. Perhaps he can appreciate this.

Turion uses magnets on both sides of the rotor disc. And has two sets of stator coils/cores, one on each side of the rotor, call it front and back sides. And the magnets are equal in number on the front and back of the rotor and aligned radially around on the same diameter. The stator cores are also aligned, such that when the front magnet is TDC, the back magnet is TDC. So the attractive force between the front side magnet and core at TDC is equally offset by the magnet and core on the back side. If the front core pulls the rotor East, the back side core pulls West. Equal and opposite.

You already have your opposition neutralization magnets. No additional hardware required.

But it's all moot because these forces are axially directed such as not to cause torque. And torque is what loads the prime mover.
bi

[BroMikey]

Fur dummies

[BroMikey]

Learn types, lesson 1

[BroMikey]

Beginners like Bye start on the learning curve here and don't flat line as you ponder. Start with the easy projects and then you can watch lenz (not from a book) in action. The induction motor

[BroMikey]

All those books, schools, universities and lectures are just a waste of time for you, right? No truth can be found there, right? Always found on the bench, right?

You'd rather make up your own rules and laws of nature
bi

Science has many truths and bench top proofs, it is the omissions that troubles me. Conveniently leaving out so much to alleviate the struggles of revamping the old doctrine of thou shalt not have any other authorities before me. Govt run science has no shame.

[Turion]

Ohhhhhhh, such a scary man! LOL. I have tested this many, many, many times over the years. I doubt I am going to suddenly find something NEW in the next few days that changes my mind. LOL. So yes, I will "dare" to test it.

The battery, AGAIN? You are like a little child. Someone stole your candy and twenty years later you are still crying about it. Grow up and let it go.

[bistander]

No, what we do is actually BUILD stuff and test it instead of walking around with our mouths open and our minds closed. The truth is always found on the bench.

All those books, schools, universities and lectures are just a waste of time for you, right? No truth can be found there, right? Always found on the bench, right? Like that LiFePO4 battery was on your bench yet you found a falsehood and I knew the truth about it. Just like that big black generator is on your bench, yet I know more truth about it than you do. You'd rather make up your own rules and laws of nature than learn from masters like Newton, Lenz, Faraday, Lorentz, etc. You might consider learning what science is before you attempt to practice it. Kinda late now. Test your device and find out the truth, if you dare.
bi

[BroMikey]

Bye can't make the correlation between lenz and coil induction. He doesn't know what our present day model says at schools around the world. BYE cleaned out old dusty motors for 40 years and that is what makes him all knowingA self made authority on all subjects.

When a current flows in a load bearing wire of a coil it forms a magnetic field. This is where you need to read about induction. This induction is an action and for every action there is an opposite and equal re-action thus BEMF or a counter electromotive force. 7th grade stuff. Nevermind

[Turion]

The generated voltage in an armature coil is not primarily due to self induction. Tesla never mentioned motors or generators in the patent and to my knowledge never "eliminated a motors self induction" or "put an end to BEMF." You guys make this stuff up or parrot some idiot's misinterpretation or fraud.
bi

No, what we do is actually BUILD stuff and test it instead of walking around with our mouths open and our minds closed. The truth is always found on the bench.

[bistander]

bi,

THE DEBUNKER says the coil was "connected the way Tesla shows in the patent", which means at the correct frequency it has NO SELF INDUCTION, (according to the patent) which means no Lenz. For Lenz to take place the coil must have self induction.

"which means at the correct frequency it has NO SELF INDUCTION, (according to the patent) which means no Lenz."

This is untrue, simply false.

THE DEBUNKER also says it speeds up under load.

Yes, it does speed up. I never said it didn't. That does not mean Lenz is not there.

2:08 in the video: “I’m going to speed the motor up to 25 Htz. 25 Htz input frequency. That seems to be about the cutoff point for when ahh, after, after speed increases after that you start to see the regenerative acceleration effect.”

There is a specific frequency at which there is NO self induction and NO acceleration effect. This is the null point where the coil produces the MOST as a generator coil, and ALSO as a motor coil if you are using it that way.

So what?

But you see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear and believe what you want to believe. That box you live in is getting smaller every day.

All attempts to educate bi are going to fall on deaf ears. He doesn't care about the truth. He's a paid schill. His job is to discredit anyone who presents anything outside the box.

Yes, to you, and to Alex, I know what the outcome of the test will be. So no, I won't build it because I have no need to test it. A failed test by me would prove nothing to anyone anyway. He who makes the claim must prove the claim. Otherwise it is a lie. Turion must provide the truth. I doubt he is up to the task. Prove me wrong Turion.
bi

[bistander]

...
Coil induction is why lenz law works so good against the rotor action. When Tesla eliminated a motors self induction he put an end to BEMF. Morgan burnt down his lab. This patent got under the radar as Tesla was now ducking for dear life.

The generated voltage in an armature coil is not primarily due to self induction. Tesla never mentioned motors or generators in the patent and to my knowledge never "eliminated a motors self induction" or "put an end to BEMF." You guys make this stuff up or parrot some idiot's misinterpretation or fraud.
bi

[alexelectric]

As to your question as to why I haven't built your stuff and tested for myself, I answered numerous times. I don't build things which I know won't work. There are a few exceptions, bit the majority of your junk is obvious. Again, you make the extraordinary claim, you must provide proof. Otherwise it is just another lie. I have, as anyone has, every right to challenge your claim. And a challenger is not required, or expected, to disprove your claim. That's how the real world functions. bi

My question is, can you estimate that something won't work, and you don't build it to test it, ok.
You can estimate that something will work, and that is why you can build it, ok.
And when you build something that I think would work, I was able to get two things that you found the estimate would work, or didn't.
Only when you build it will you know if it worked or not, the estimates may not be what I think it would work, I think it is the right thing to do that every researcher would test his estimates in a practical way by building.
Cheers

[Turion]

bi,

THE DEBUNKER says the coil was "connected the way Tesla shows in the patent", which means at the correct frequency it has NO SELF INDUCTION, (according to the patent) which means no Lenz. For Lenz to take place the coil must have self induction.

THE DEBUNKER also says it speeds up under load.

2:08 in the video: “I’m going to speed the motor up to 25 Htz. 25 Htz input frequency. That seems to be about the cutoff point for when ahh, after, after speed increases after that you start to see the regenerative acceleration effect.”

There is a specific frequency at which there is NO self induction and NO acceleration effect. This is the null point where the coil produces the MOST as a generator coil, and ALSO as a motor coil if you are using it that way.

But you see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear and believe what you want to believe. That box you live in is getting smaller every day.

All attempts to educate bi are going to fall on deaf ears. He doesn't care about the truth. He's a paid schill. His job is to discredit anyone who presents anything outside the box.

[BroMikey]

US Patent #512,340. Tesla never says any such thing. Look it up.
bi

Very funny we are the one's who pointed out this document years ago and you refuse understand it's content. Not my problem. We all even read it for you back then. You must be having some slippage or are reverting to your adolescents, I can't be sure.

At any rate those nasty brain farts wreak of malicious intent, just keep on.



Coils for electromagnets Patent US512340A

"In carrying out my invention it is to be observed that certain facts are well under-- stood by those skilled in the art, viz: the relations ot' capacity, self-induction, and the frequency and potential difference of the current.

sufficient to secure in the coil a capacity capable of neutralizing its self-induction ...in series and having a potential difference of such value as to give to the coil as a whole, a capacity sufficient to neutralize its self-induction, as set forth.

I have found that in every coil there exists a certain relation between its self-induction and capacity that permits a current of given frequency and potential to pass through it with no other opposition than that of ohmic resistance, or, in other words, as though it possessed no self-induction

I may wind any given coil either in Whole or in part, not only in the specic manner herein` illustrated, but in a great variety of ways,well known `in the art,

A consideration of the greatest importance in many cases, and the results, both as to efficiency and economy"

Infinite efficiency

Coil induction is why lenz law works so good against the rotor action. When Tesla eliminated a motors self induction he put an end to BEMF. Morgan burnt down his lab. This patent got under the radar as Tesla was now ducking for dear life.

[bistander]

Are you brain dead? A generator coil that speeds up under load is what Tesla talked about, a coil with self properties that negated lenz law. The lenz coils slow down the rotor. Are you really okay? Is anyone in there?

US Patent #512,340. Tesla never says any such thing. Look it up.
bi