The bistander thread

[Turion]

I have no more time to argue semantics with you. You are never going to change nor understand THIS machine. You will never replicate it. So you get what you deserve.

The proof of who is right and who is wrong is sitting on my bench. I will let it speak for me. It will do what I said it will do, with some corrections for modifications. This machine has only 10 coils rather than 12, so the output of 1800 watts MAY be reduced to as little as 1500 watts. But since more magnets were added to the rotor, it may not go down THAT much. Time will tell.

The input should also be reduced. By how much, I am not certain as a couple different things have changed that should affect input as well.

The main thing is that the output from the generator should FAR EXCEED the input to the motor. I haven't run this machine yet, so I have no idea what the specifics will be. But ANY output greater than the input would justify the work I have done on this.

I have to work on my remodel today all day, so I won't get to this machine until tonight, and the first step is to put all the magnets in the rotor. Working with magnets this strong is my LEAST favorite thing about building this machine. I dislike it even more than the mind numbing process of winding coils because of the danger involved.

But I am going to set up may camera and document every step in assembling this machine so I have a record to send to Aaron. Any info you get other than how it goes together will be up to him.

[bistander]

I have no more time to argue semantics with you. You are never going to change nor understand THIS machine. You will never replicate it. So you get what you deserve.

The proof of who is right and who is wrong is sitting on my bench. I will let it speak for me. It will do what I said it will do, with some corrections for modifications. This machine has only 10 coils rather than 12, so the output of 1800 watts MAY be reduced to as little as 1500 watts. But since more magnets were added to the rotor, it may not go down THAT much. Time will tell.

The input should also be reduced. By how much, I am not certain as a couple different things have changed that should affect input as well.

The main thing is that the output from the generator should FAR EXCEED the input to the motor. I haven't run this machine yet, so I have no idea what the specifics will be. But ANY output greater than the input would justify the work I have done on this.

I have to work on my remodel today all day, so I won't get to this machine until tonight, and the first step is to put all the magnets in the rotor. Working with magnets this strong is my LEAST favorite thing about building this machine. I dislike it even more than the mind numbing process of winding coils because of the danger involved.

But I am going to set up may camera and document every step in assembling this machine so I have a record to send to Aaron. Any info you get other than how it goes together will be up to him.

OK. Great.
bi

[bistander]

...
The change from 12 / 6 to 22 / 5 will certainly lower the cogging force ( torque) and increase frequency, probably significantly. Also, the increased frequency will significantly increase core loss, perhaps 4 to 6 times at equivalent RPM. In other words, I expect it to be easier to get it accelerated at low speed (compare breakaway torque) but draw lots higher current in the prime mover motor at 2700RPM, if you can even reach such speed. And surely see cores heat faster.

What do you think?

bi

5 phases 44 poles vs single phase 12 pole.

bi

Repost after some recent posts on M-G thread about # poles and frequency/RPM.

Remember with 22 all N facing magnets there will be 44 poles total. 22 consequent poles. In other words, a S pole in-between each pair of N.

Equations may have appeared to work using 22 because they often use P = pairs of poles. Poles always come in pairs*.

*Faraday disc is exception

Regards,
bi

[BroMikey]

These machines are not 3,5 or 9 phases. And even if they were the power is rectified first, sent to converters. You are avoiding the points of these generators. Your data centers around conventional 2 pole generators and motor. 4 pole was added and 6 poles but this requires a specific geometric placement and wiring configuration. These systems are the old elephant in the room and can never catch the new rabbit designs. Your data points are old and boring.

Stay on topic.

[bistander]

These machines are not 3,5 or 9 phases. And even if they were the power is rectified first, sent to converters. You are avoiding the points of these generators. Your data centers around conventional 2 pole generators and motor. 4 pole was added and 6 poles but this requires a specific geometric placement and wiring configuration. These systems are the old elephant in the room and can never catch the new rabbit designs. Your data points are old and boring.

Stay on topic.

Did you read a book or something?

Stay on topic, you say? Look at the thread title.

The advantages and benefits of polyphase and distributed chorded wound coils are substantial so there are good reasons serious power conversation electric machinery use such methods. Moving magnets past salient coils in a mostly air magnetic circuit is like child's play but can be a learning experience because the physics and basic EM principles apply.

Read more, experiment more, learn more, carry on.
bi

[BroMikey]

Did you read a book or something?

Stay on topic, you say? Look at the thread title.

The advantages and benefits of polyphase and distributed chorded wound coils are substantial so there are good reasons serious power conversation electric machinery use such methods. Moving magnets past salient coils in a mostly air magnetic circuit is like child's play but can be a learning experience because the physics and basic EM principles apply.

Read more, experiment more, learn more, carry on.
bi

Yes but you do not understand them. at least not as it applies to the flawed science book you never go away from. You are trapped inside. All of the formula and so called laws/rules of thumb only apply to the flawed dynamic, compliments of J P Morgan and company. The past is dead, time to experiment.

#1 motor designs today all have a single core and a specialized bimetal vane rotor that was arrived on thru experimentation. Done, over they left it the same way

Rule #1 Never mix apples with oranges unless it is for a XMAS stocking

[bistander]

What are you trying to do, Bro, mike bi's head explode? He cannot accept ANY of this as reality. Don't you know that? Doesn't matter how many people say it is true. My feeling is, and always has been, that people who do not build this stuff for themselves get exactly what they deserve.

Neutral coils
Magnetic neutralization
Running between the positives.
Understanding that, in the proper circuits, the energy is NOT consumed by the load
Understanding how to "GENERATE" energy in a circuit.
These are the keys to free energy. We HAVE all the answers. We just have to build machines that embody these principles. I said BUILD, not BABBLE about.

Hi Turion,

A new Thane Heins video. Big deal. Same old same old. He does not show baseline which is input power at speed without the coil. It's obvious what's happening when you have that data point as our favorite debunk video shows.
https://youtu.be/kfRxsC9yumQ

Speaking of building machines, I noticed your trouble with magnet in the new rotor. From your assembly description and photos I suspected difficulty in magnet removal. I was hoping you'd not need to. Methods come to mind. None are pretty. Demagnetize by heating past Curie temperature and/or strong demagnetizing field. Probably not feasible. Pulverize the magnets. Messy and hazardous. Cut out piece of rotor containing the magnet and glue in new piece with new magnet. Like removing a piece from a jigsaw puzzle. Water jet could cut a clean circular plug. They make some really excellent glues. Using same material for plug wouldn't throw balance off by much. Good luck with that.

bi

[Turion]

Why does he need that baseline? There are two coils in relation to the rotor. In any machine there will ALWAYS be coils in relation to the rotor. What difference does it make WHAT the machine will do when there are NO coils in relation to the rotor? With two coils there that are not connected to load, there should, according to you, be NO drag or effect on the drive motor anyway. Or are you saying that when there are coils in relation to the rotor there IS some effect on the drive motor? You can't have it both ways. It is not "obvious" because you have NO IDEA what is happening. You have proved THAT.

Our "favorite video" does not show the proper information EITHER.

How much power does the speed up under load coil put out when its is NEUTRAL and NOT speeding up under load. THAT is when its output is the greatest. That is a FACT. Greater than was shown in the video. And how do you get it to the point where it would put out the most power. In the video, he would have had to slow down the drive motor. If he had done this, the output of the sped up under load coil would have gone UP but the input to the drive motor would have gone DOWN. Now show the output of the standard coil with this same, REDUCED INPUT to the drive motor. Want to guess which coil outputs more? I already KNOW as I have done these experiments countless times. If the speed up under load coil is not operated at the proper frequency it is WORTHLESS. All he has done in the video is show that when operating at the INCORRECT frequency it is no better and possibly WORSE than a standard coil. I would agree with that. Nothing he shows is incorrect. He just doesn't give us all the necessary information to make an INFORMED decision.

On another note, I did a video where I showed my big generator running with 0 coils in it and the motor running on 7 amps at 36 volts, and I don't remember the RPM, but I remember it was over 3,000. That was the baseline. Then I put four coils in the machine and it drew over 12 amps and the RPM was reduced by 500 RPM. Now I know that means nothing to YOU, but it does to ME. Which is why I believe magnetic neutralization is necessary. Both those videos were sent to Aaron. I do not remember whether I posted them here or not. Doesn't matter. Whether anyone hers saw them or not, the data is the same. Since I can run the machine with all 12 coils in place at between 7- 10 amps at 36 volts with ALL the coils in place (depending on adjusting the opposition magnets) it seems worth it to me. Oh, and I also posted a video with all 12 coils in the machine, having only adjusted the first FOUR coils to get the amp draw down a bit, where the machine is pulling 13 amps. I can tell you from experience that with NO coils adjusted it draws OVER the 26 amps the motor is rated for, which is why I burned up several of these motors. You get the motor up to speed and who start inserting coils, you know what happens? The motor slows down and the amp draw goes up. Fact. And, it seems like the effect is more than the sum of its parts. By that I mean, as you add more coils, the amp draw goes up more for each one than it did for the previous coil. Oh, and by coil, I mean coil and CORE, in case are you were going to play that BS card again.

Right now I am attempting to drill through the magnet on my new rotor that is bad, even if I have to drill through the smaller one in the middle so I can push the other large Neo OUT the other side and just replace all three. It would give me a clean hole. The problem is finding a bit that will drill through Neodyniumn magnets. They are hard. Really hard. Harder than steel. But hopefully brittle and will break into pieces. I'm giving it my best shot. Going to Lowes sometime tomorrow to see what they have for me to accomplish this. Have to work on remodel tomorrow, but this project is rapidly coming to an end. Weeks instead of months.

[BroMikey]

Thane video offers multiple tests. 251 watt input no load

normal coil load 9 watts input watt 260

Tesla bifilar coils everything same gives 60 watt output with no speed up (Neutral) input drops.

You did not watch the video. You all have your minds already made up and think you see.

This has been reported by me for years and still all I find are blind guys. Go watch the video. For the
first time. Obviously there is such a bias against Thane that no one wants to admit it has all been right in front of you for years. Mental blocks or stumbling blocks are major mental hurdles. Virtually no appreiable
acceleration or the null is what you are being shown in the video for the multifilar coils.

Watch the video again before I come ungluedWait a minute, are you talking about Bye's idiot video? My mistake. Anyway come out of your coma BYE and watch again. Never mind the clown video sent to cloud the real results.

All together now, 251 watts input reg coil load 9watts input rises 260watts.....................=9watt increase
I guess I gotta do everyone's math for them. Bifilar coil 60 watt load input goes down a tiny speed the same. It has been there all along. New glasses might help as it is hard to see his power analyzer readout

Forget the idiot in the debunk video, he has alot of air up there. On purpose. Well atleast you got dave to spill all the beans all over again. Some salvation.

[bistander]

Why does he need that baseline? There are two coils in relation to the rotor. In any machine there will ALWAYS be coils in relation to the rotor. What difference does it make WHAT the machine will do when there are NO coils in relation to the rotor? With two coils there that are not connected to load, there should, according to you, be NO drag or effect on the drive motor anyway. Or are you saying that when there are coils in relation to the rotor there IS some effect on the drive motor? You can't have it both ways. It is not "obvious" because you have NO IDEA what is happening. You have proved THAT.

Our "favorite video" does not show the proper information EITHER.

How much power does the speed up under load coil put out when its is NEUTRAL and NOT speeding up under load. THAT is when its output is the greatest. That is a FACT. Greater than was shown in the video. And how do you get it to the point where it would put out the most power. In the video, he would have had to slow down the drive motor. If he had done this, the output of the sped up under load coil would have gone UP but the input to the drive motor would have gone DOWN. Now show the output of the standard coil with this same, REDUCED INPUT to the drive motor. Want to guess which coil outputs more? I already KNOW as I have done these experiments countless times. If the speed up under load coil is not operated at the proper frequency it is WORTHLESS. All he has done in the video is show that when operating at the INCORRECT frequency it is no better and possibly WORSE than a standard coil. I would agree with that. Nothing he shows is incorrect. He just doesn't give us all the necessary information to make an INFORMED decision.

On another note, I did a video where I showed my big generator running with 0 coils in it and the motor running on 7 amps at 36 volts, and I don't remember the RPM, but I remember it was over 3,000. That was the baseline. Then I put four coils in the machine and it drew over 12 amps and the RPM was reduced by 500 RPM. Now I know that means nothing to YOU, but it does to ME. Which is why I believe magnetic neutralization is necessary. Both those videos were sent to Aaron. I do not remember whether I posted them here or not. Doesn't matter. Whether anyone hers saw them or not, the data is the same. Since I can run the machine with all 12 coils in place at between 7- 10 amps at 36 volts with ALL the coils in place (depending on adjusting the opposition magnets) it seems worth it to me. Oh, and I also posted a video with all 12 coils in the machine, having only adjusted the first FOUR coils to get the amp draw down a bit, where the machine is pulling 13 amps. I can tell you from experience that with NO coils adjusted it draws OVER the 26 amps the motor is rated for, which is why I burned up several of these motors. You get the motor up to speed and who start inserting coils, you know what happens? The motor slows down and the amp draw goes up. Fact. And, it seems like the effect is more than the sum of its parts. By that I mean, as you add more coils, the amp draw goes up more for each one than it did for the previous coil. Oh, and by coil, I mean coil and CORE, in case are you were going to play that BS card again.

Right now I am attempting to drill through the magnet on my new rotor that is bad, even if I have to drill through the smaller one in the middle so I can push the other large Neo OUT the other side and just replace all three. It would give me a clean hole. The problem is finding a bit that will drill through Neodyniumn magnets. They are hard. Really hard. Harder than steel. But hopefully brittle and will break into pieces. I'm giving it my best shot. Going to Lowes sometime tomorrow to see what they have for me to accomplish this. Have to work on remodel tomorrow, but this project is rapidly coming to an end. Weeks instead of months.

Turion,

Coils. Cores. They are different. And again you attribute to me statements I never made. The bifilar coil makes a substantial load on the machine even when it is open circuit. The debunker demonstrates that clearly. 169 watts at open circuit, bifilar coil vs conventionally wound coil. Run the test. Everything the same with your coil vs a conventional coil or no coil, just the core. It's obvious what's happening, and it is not as you and Thane claim.

When attempting to drill into the magnet, protect yourself from fumes and dust/particles. I see a mess and distorted material of the rotor disc. You'll likely end up cutting a plug and that would be cleaner done before messing it up with the drill. You'll find out. Be safe.

bi

Edit:
I wonder if an industrial strength super glue would affix a nut or bolt to the magnet so you could grip it and pull with hydraulic leverage.

[Turion]

Again YOU see what you WANT to see. But watch the video again. Look at the very beginning where he is at the PROPER frequency for the speed up under load coil. Where it neither speeds up nor slows down when shorted.

1454 rpm. 179 watts input unloaded. No change when the coil is shorted

When he speeds it up, the input watts Jump WAY up to 432 watts input at 1624 rpm.

There is an increase of 170 RPM. At a COST of 253 additional watts of input.

Operated at the CORRECT frequency he gets 8.1 RPM for every watt of input power. Operated at the INCORRECT frequency he gets 3.7 RPM for every watt of input power.

if he had done all his tests at the CORRECT frequency, the results would have been far different. Show the inputs and outputs of both coils at this LOWER, CORRECT frequency and THEN tell me what you see. Oh, and what is the cost per watt of input on the “standard coil”. Unless I’m wrong, at the frequency it is run at ( not the lower, correct frequency for the CORRECT operation of the speed up under load coil) it is 6.4 watts of input for each RPM. And what does he say about the power output of the two coils? The speed up under load coil put out so much power it wouldn’t register on his meter and he, himself, says it puts out twice the power of the standard coil. And that is running at the WRONG frequency where it’s power output us not at maximum. Again, you see what you WANT to see.

I notice that when I post data that doesn’t support your position you do what you always do. Ignore it and attack those points you believe you can win. The problem is, you cannot win when you don’t know what you are talking about. You do NOT have one of these machines running in your bench so you have no idea what the reality is.

[bistander]

Again YOU see what you WANT to see. But watch the video again. Look at the very beginning where he is at the PROPER frequency for the speed up under load coil. Where it neither speeds up nor slows down when shorted.

1454 rpm. 179 watts input unloaded. No change when the coil is shorted

When he speeds it up, the input watts Jump WAY up to 432 watts input at 1624 rpm.

There is an increase of 170 RPM. At a COST of 253 additional watts of input.

Operated at the CORRECT frequency he gets 8.1 RPM for every watt of input power. Operated at the INCORRECT frequency he gets 3.7 RPM for every watt of input power.

if he had done all his tests at the CORRECT frequency, the results would have been far different. Show the inputs and outputs of both coils at this LOWER, CORRECT frequency and THEN tell me what you see. Oh, and what is the cost per watt of input on the “standard coil”. Unless I’m wrong, at the frequency it is run at ( not the lower, correct frequency for the CORRECT operation of the speed up under load coil) it is 6.4 watts of input for each RPM. And what does he say about the power output of the two coils? The speed up under load coil put out so much power it wouldn’t register on his meter and he, himself, says it puts out twice the power of the standard coil. And that is running at the WRONG frequency where it’s power output us not at maximum. Again, you see what you WANT to see.

I notice that when I post data that doesn’t support your position you do what you always do. Ignore it and attack those points you believe you can win. The problem is, you cannot win when you don’t know what you are talking about. You do NOT have one of these machines running in your bench so you have no idea what the reality is.

Turion,

You don't have a machine running on your bench, do you? And I can't (and neither can you) see the baseline test when he didn't bother to perform it. Both you and Thane just do the tests and collect data (sometimes) that supports your theories. The debunker did the most objective test I've seen on bifilar vs conventional generator coils.

But like I've said numerous times, it, along with your other scheme, doesn't affect output at load and is not proof or evidence of output power exceeding input.

Thane is especially out in left field with his infinite efficiency claims. Efficiency is output over input, not output over change of input. Big difference there and is at the heart of why the "speed-up under load" or "regenx" is nothing more than a useless trick relative to power generation or energy conversion.

Show real output power in excess of input power like you claim. That's all it takes. Thane has never done that and neither have you.

Get real,
bi
Edit:
You pose the question:
"what is the cost per watt of input on the “standard coil”." That's a strange metric. More telling is the debunker's summary which I attached above. Note both coils at equal power output, 10W, required exactly the same input power, 280W. Both are 3.57% efficient. In other words: At these conditions, the bifilar coil offers no advantage over the conventional coil of equal mass. That is what I've said all along.

[Turion]

Again you ignored the data I gave you. As usual. But that post isn’t going away. It’s right there for all to see, and it PROVES the value of magnetic neutralization.

As to this last discussion, it costs me around 380 watts to turn my rotor. Now I can continue to add coil after coil ( and the cores they are wrapped around )until the OUTPUT is as much as I want with little or NO change to the cost to run the prime mover. That is what “neutral” coils and magnetic neutralization allow to happen. If I only get 50 volts at 1 amp or 50 watts output from a coil, I simply put 40 of them on the machine. Or 50 or 60. Yes, I would have to add more rotors, but the effect on the prime mover would be an increased amp draw from turning more mass and probably a change in the RPM. But NOTHING compared to the increase in power output. I’m sorry you can’t see this.

[bistander]

Again you ignored the data I gave you. As usual. But that post isn’t going away. It’s right there for all to see, and it PROVES the value of magnetic neutralization.

As to this last discussion, it costs me around 380 watts to turn my rotor. Now I can continue to add coil after coil ( and the cores they are wrapped around )until the OUTPUT is as much as I want with little or NO change to the cost to run the prime mover. That is what “neutral” coils and magnetic neutralization allow to happen. If I only get 50 volts at 1 amp or 50 watts output from a coil, I simply put 40 of them on the machine. Or 50 or 60. Yes, I would have to add more rotors, but the effect on the prime mover would be an increased amp draw from turning more mass and probably a change in the RPM. But NOTHING compared to the increase in power output. I’m sorry you can’t see this.

Never any proof. Just BS claims.

All your methods (schemes) do:
"Magnetic neutralization" reduces cogging.
"Bifilar" coils increase open circuit power input.
Neither improve generator performance at speed and at load.

bi

Edit:

You say "the effect on the prime mover would be an increased amp draw from turning more mass".

Still denying Newton's Law. Sad.

[Turion]

Never any proof. Just BS claims.

All your methods (schemes) do:
"Magnetic neutralization" reduces cogging.
"Bifilar" coils increase open circuit power input.
Neither improve generator performance at speed and at load.

The simple fact is, you are wrong.
But let's take a look at what you said, because you are all about semantics

"Magnetic Neutralization reduces cogging."
Wrong. High speed reduces the EFFECT of cogging. Cogging is The PHYSICAL reaction of the magnets to the iron cores. It NEVER goes COMPLETELY away. Not even at high speed. You just can't see it because the intervals between incidents are so much shorter. Almost a CONSTANT. But the attraction is still there. It is a magnetic DRAG that NEVER goes away. Unless of course you use magnetic neutralization, in which case the amp draw of the motor goes DOWN, reducing input to the system. The rpm of the motor goes UP, resulting in the speed of the generator going UP also, which means the output is greater. I posted three videos showing this beyond a doubt. I presented the data from those videos a few posts ago. But as usual, you IGNORE that which proves you wrong. You might enjoy reading the original patent and the university research that was done to VERIFY said patent. Bertil WERJEFELT Magnetic Battery. This is OLD tech that I read about and applied to my generator.

"Bifilar Coils increase open circuit power input."

When used as GENERATOR coils at the WRONG FREQUENCY, YES, the do. But only a moron would run them at the incorrect frequency. Since all YOUR experience with them seems to have had negative results, I must assume that you are running them at the incorrect frequency, where they cause the motor to speed up when they are put under load. That does not speak well of you. At the correct frequency they do exactly what we want them to do. They output MORE than the standard coil because they have greater capacitance. They do NOT affect the operation of the prime mover in the way that a standard coil does, so the OUTPUT of the generator is higher and the INPUT to the prime mover is less. It is not slowed when the coil is put under load. These are the facts. That you are unable to accept them is YOUR problem, not mine.

You say "the effect on the prime mover would be an increased amp draw from turning more mass".

Still denying Newton's Law. Sad.

That larger mass has more WEIGHT too. (Those with half a brain understand that) There is a cost over time to get that additional weight up to speed. If you can't see that, I'm sorry for you.