The bistander thread

[Turion]

And you won’t do the simple experiment a 7th grader could do because it will prove you wrong and you know it.

oh, and by the way, I don’t know if you are aware of this, but when you prevent the amp draw of the motor from going up and the rpm from going down, as this does, not only does it improve the output of the generator but it decreases the input in watts to the prime mover. So when you say it has NO effect on the production? That’s just another example of how little you actually know.

[bistander]

You always want to argue semantics instead of principles. Because you are wrong. The attraction of the rotor magnet to the iron core has NO FORCE in any direction that "neutralizes it" UNLESS the opposition magnets are used. This is what I have said all along. As the rotor magnet moves past the coil core (Magnetic drag) there comes an instant in time when the two are perfectly aligned. There is NO force that offsets this moment in time. The attraction DURING THIS MOMENT is what you MUST compensate for. The attraction of the magnet to the coil core as it approaches is cancelled out by the attraction of the magnet to the coil core as it is moving away. But that instant in time exists. That attraction exists. and there is NO FORCE that neutralizes that attraction unless the opposition magnets are applied. The more coils you add and the more magnets on the rotor the more that instant of time is multiplied into thousands of times per minute. This is a force that causes significant amp draw in the motor. These are the FACTS. It is what I have stated FROM THE BEGINNING. A simple experiment proves I am ABSOLUTELY CORRECT and you KNOW IT. So you are WRONG. Always HAVE been wrong. Always WILL be wrong. This instant does not occur thousands of times per second without MOVEMENT which is the magnetic drag. There is NO "magnetic lock" because of the motion of the rotor, but that instant in time of PERFECT ALIGNMENT still occurs despite the fact that there is constant movement, so it IS magnetic drag, as I have said. And you are, how shall I put this, WRONG!

Again you ignore Sir Newton's teachings. For every action there is an equal and opposing reaction. A force on an object has an equal & opposite force on it or an action caused by the force, like acceleration. In the case of the brick on the table, the brick experiences force of gravity in the downward direction. It doesn't move (accelerate) downward because the table exerts an upward force on the brick. Two equal and opposite forces, no motion.

If there was no force to "neutralize" the attraction between the magnet and core, then they would move towards each other until they collide and the physical contact provides the opposing force to stop motion. But that doesn't happen because there is a counter force preventing that and maintaining the gap between the magnet and core. That opposing force comes from the machine structure, acting like the table under the brick, providing an equal & opposite force holding the magnet and core apart.

Putting a different magnet(s) elsewhere to "neutralize" or counterbalance the attractive force between the magnet and the core does not cause the attractive force between the magnet and core to disappeare, it simply adds a repulsive force elsewhere which then is opposed by a force on the structure.

Draw a free body diagram.

Your magnetic neutralization renders cogging ineffective. That's all, well maybe it adds some rotational loss. It does not reduce or eliminate magnetic drag. The force between the magnet and core is still there. The magnetic flux is still there. When there's rotation, there's changing flux and that is what causes magnetic drag.

You can dream up your own explanation and theories. But it doesn't affect the power production of the generator. That is what needs to be addressed. Do whatever you want with schemes, just prove there is more real power produced than input.

You call it semantics because you don't understand principles.
bi

[Quantum_well]

Eddy currents are responsible for braking effect. I think that is why electric machines have laminated cores which help to avoid the current flow. What would you say bistander?

[Turion]

You always want to argue semantics instead of principles. Because you are wrong. The attraction of the rotor magnet to the iron core has NO FORCE in any direction that "neutralizes it" UNLESS the opposition magnets are used. This is what I have said all along. As the rotor magnet moves past the coil core (Magnetic drag) there comes an instant in time when the two are perfectly aligned. There is NO force that offsets this moment in time. The attraction DURING THIS MOMENT is what you MUST compensate for. The attraction of the magnet to the coil core as it approaches is cancelled out by the attraction of the magnet to the coil core as it is moving away. But that instant in time exists. That attraction exists. and there is NO FORCE that neutralizes that attraction unless the opposition magnets are applied. The more coils you add and the more magnets on the rotor the more that instant of time is multiplied into thousands of times per minute. This is a force that causes significant amp draw in the motor. These are the FACTS. It is what I have stated FROM THE BEGINNING. A simple experiment proves I am ABSOLUTELY CORRECT and you KNOW IT. So you are WRONG. Always HAVE been wrong. Always WILL be wrong. This instant does not occur thousands of times per second without MOVEMENT which is the magnetic drag. There is NO "magnetic lock" because of the motion of the rotor, but that instant in time of PERFECT ALIGNMENT still occurs despite the fact that there is constant movement, so it IS magnetic drag, as I have said. And you are, how shall I put this, WRONG!

[bistander]

Here’s a little example for you. If I put all 12 coils in Greyland machine and without the opposition magnets in place, I slowly begin to feed voltage to the motor. It doesn’t MOVE because the magnetic lock is too great. If I don’t provide it with enough amps it will just sit there until the motor catches on fire. According to YOU there is no “drag” because there is no movement. Want to rethink that a bit? I call this “magnetic drag.” Yes, once movement BEGINS the attraction the magnet has to the core it is leaving behind is equal to the attraction toward the core it had on the approach. But that moment of alignment has NOTHING to offset it. NOTHING. You REALLY believe there is no attraction when they are perfectly aligned? REALLY?

You can prove it with a tiny rotor and two coils. Put the coils at 90 degrees from each other on a rotor that has all north or south magnets on it. Use one coil as a motor coil. Use the other coil as a generator coil or don’t even bother to hook it to a load. It doesn’t matter. Directly across the rotor from the generator coil slowly move an opposition magnet toward the rotor while the motor coil is spinning it and watch it speed up. Happens every time. This is the basic test I asked Citifa to do to verify what I was seeing. You TOO can do simple experiments to verify what I say is true. Or not. I really don’t care.

Turion,

Here’s a little example for you. If I put all 12 coils in Greyland machine and without the opposition magnets in place, I slowly begin to feed voltage to the motor. It doesn’t MOVE because the magnetic lock is too great. If I don’t provide it with enough amps it will just sit there until the motor catches on fire.

Magnetic lock is not magnetic drag. Magnetic drag requires motion. Look up the definition.

Your experiment sounds interesting. Similar to what I have in mind. But coils are not involved in magnetic drag or cogging in permanent magnet machines. Perhaps because your machine has bifilar coils, known to exhibit no load losses, when you tune the anticogging magnets, it behaves differently than theory would predict, using accepted definition of magnetic drag and done with standard coils or no coils.

But that moment of alignment has NOTHING to offset it. NOTHING .

Sure there is. There is magnetic force acting to pull the magnet closer to the steel core. Attraction, in the axial direction, parallel to the shaft, is offset by the structure and bearing. If not, the gap would close and magnet would touch the core. That axial force, at the instant of perfect alignment, has no tangential component so develops no torque on the shaft which is realized as magnetic drag.

You're dealing with a static condition "at instant of perfect alignment" which doesn't fit definitions of magnetic drag or cogging. Sure, if your motor doesn't have enough torque to overcome the forces developed when the rotor first attempts to move from magnetic alignment, or magnetic lock, it won't rotate and overheat. I never said otherwise. I can only deal with the words you type and the accepted definitions.

bi

[alexelectric]

I want to share some of my experience, with the ideas and Proposal of Mr. Dave, what I comment is a test that I carried out, the test was carried out to make sure of the proposal of the magnets, which help us reduce the magnetic drag of the core. the coil with the inductor magnet. When I had only the coil installed, without the magnets that help us with the drag of the core-magnet magnetic attraction, I could not move or rotate the rotor on the shaft with my hand when trying to turn it, when I connected the AC 120 Volts motor One of the washing machines, from the start, could not turn the rotor, I had to help him with a push so that he could turn the rotor. When I installed the support magnets, I could already rotate it by hand through the rotor shaft, I could say as if the load of a weight was lightened, by testing it with the motor, the rotor could already rotate without the hand push. The repulsive magnets help, and not only to avoid that core-magnet magnetic drag, they also help with an extra push to the rotor movement, the repulsion of NN poles is strong and that gives the extra, I have already mentioned it, that's why the The machine that Mr. Dave's friend has reached great speed.

[Turion]

The drag comes from the changing magnetic field in the core due to the magnet sweeping across it changing polarity, and or magnitude or direction of the flux. It takes energy to flip the magnetic domains and induce eddy currents. That energy is lost as heat and comes from torque (with rotation) on the shaft... or drag. There is drag on the cores from the moving magnets, I've always told you this and used magnetic brakes/clutches as examples. But as you say, " moment in time" of perfect alignment is a zero time event. Study calculus about infinitesimals. No duration. No movement. No work. No power. No drag. It has to move from that perfect alignment for the drag to start, then it's leaving that position and work done is equal and opposite to the infinitesimal work done on approach.

Regards,
bi

Here’s a little example for you. If I put all 12 coils in Greyland machine and without the opposition magnets in place, I slowly begin to feed voltage to the motor. It doesn’t MOVE because the magnetic lock is too great. If I don’t provide it with enough amps it will just sit there until the motor catches on fire. According to YOU there is no “drag” because there is no movement. Want to rethink that a bit? I call this “magnetic drag.” Yes, once movement BEGINS the attraction the magnet has to the core it is leaving behind is equal to the attraction toward the core it had on the approach. But that moment of alignment has NOTHING to offset it. NOTHING. You REALLY believe there is no attraction when they are perfectly aligned? REALLY?

You can prove it with a tiny rotor and two coils. Put the coils at 90 degrees from each other on a rotor that has all north or south magnets on it. Use one coil as a motor coil. Use the other coil as a generator coil or don’t even bother to hook it to a load. It doesn’t matter. Directly across the rotor from the generator coil slowly move an opposition magnet toward the rotor while the motor coil is spinning it and watch it speed up. Happens every time. This is the basic test I asked Citifa to do to verify what I was seeing. You TOO can do simple experiments to verify what I say is true. Or not. I really don’t care.

[Turion]

My “history of misinterpretation”? Because I mistook the arrangement of cells in a battery once? LOL. I’ve been explaining this to you for YEARS and you still have it wrong. That’s what I call a “history” of misinterpretation.

i don’t need to prove you wrong. I already KNOW you are wrong. But you keep on arguing. It’s what you are good at. And you fit that box so nicely.

[Quantum_well]

Now this one is really worth watching. This guy is obviously a very skilled builder. Sometimes you need to venture out of your own little world and have a look what's out there.

https://youtu.be/EZELVYpDbVk

[bistander]

The process of adjusting the offsetting magnets on the machine is you back them off all the way, install all the coils and run the motor. In the case of Greyland machine it draws 27 amps at 36 volts at that point. You slowly adjust a pair of offsetting magnets watching the amp meter and the tach until you get it the best you can and then move on to the next set. Now that all the magnets are adjusted the machine is drawing around 10 amps at 36 volts and you think BACKING THE MAGNETS OFF will magically cause the amp draw to go DOWN rather than back toward where it started? What are you smoking? Is this the physics YOU were taught in school?

OK. I think I can set up a simple version on my bench and verify. I'm not ready to accept what you see as fact because of your history of misinterpretation. But it would be easy for you to put a camera on the ammeter and back those magnets out to prove me wrong.
bi

[BroMikey]

Same smoke blowing as the other guys. barely any serious comments or builders. All cry babies who were taught to paint by number in schools. The experiment is a grey area of disdain.

[Turion]

The process of adjusting the offsetting magnets on the machine is you back them off all the way, install all the coils and run the motor. In the case of Greyland machine it draws 27 amps at 36 volts at that point. You slowly adjust a pair of offsetting magnets watching the amp meter and the tach until you get it the best you can and then move on to the next set. Now that all the magnets are adjusted the machine is drawing around 10 amps at 36 volts and you think BACKING THE MAGNETS OFF will magically cause the amp draw to go DOWN rather than back toward where it started? What are you smoking? Is this the physics YOU were taught in school?

[Quantum_well]

Should have been Paykel

https://youtu.be/UTLzlBWLxCw

[Quantum_well]

https://youtu.be/pjXpHAGCMC0 Fisher and Parker.

[Turion]

Oh, I get it. Instead of filling the bucket with a hose you want me to fill the hose with a bucket. Got it. Makes PERFECT sense. If you think I haven’t gone in BOTH directions trying to tune and adjust these magnets you’re an idiot.