The bistander thread

[bistander]

1,2,3

I mention size of rotor as a variable ONLY because it can determine how many magnets of a specific size will be able to pass the coil. So in a sense, it IS a variable.

And if you cannot accept that neutralization and speed up under load are possible, how will you possibly accept the results when I eventually show them and not accuse me of FRAUD again? 1 plus 2 equals 3. If you do not believe 1 or 2 exist, how can 3 exist?

1 = speed-up under load (as you call it)

2 = magnetic neutralization (as you call it)

3 = the issue ( your generator claim regarding input and output power)

I never disputed your statements concerning that you achieved 1 and 2. I accept that you may have done those things.

But not #3. 1 and 2 have nothing to do with 3. You may think that they do, but there is no significant influence between the generator performance and items 1 and 2, just like there is no net effect on generator performance from cogging. We've been through this many times.

Read this.
Design and Testing of a Permanent Magnet
Axial Flux Wind Power Generator
Garrison F. Price, Todd D. Batzel, Mihai Comanescu, and Bruce A. Muller
Pennsylvania State University, Altoona College

It is a axial flux generator like yours. Do they deal with 1 or 2 or cogging? Where do 1 and 2 fit into their calculations or measurements?

I've said to you numerous times I don't care about 1 and 2 or cogging. And that still goes.

bi

[BroMikey]

I mention size of rotor as a variable ONLY because it can determine how many magnets of a specific size will be able to pass the coil. So in a sense, it IS a variable.

Here is one of my video's showing a single coil speeding up the 10"
rotor (a 9"would be different) going from 209watt drive input down
to 166watt drive input. We will ignore the coil output power for now
and focus on this reduction. 43 watts is what I saved for producing
power out of my coil. Each time I add another coil the rotor goes
a little faster, I save drive power and gen coil output is additive.

Go figure. All of this without using magnetic cancellation. I am unable
to do dyno testing and probably don't have the best meters or scope
and I sure don't remember all of the old farts in the history books with
their respective positions/tittles/effect.

The misinterpretation and spin of these effect given by the inventor
or scientist were always used to further Morgan's business model.
Can't be done is that model, well not without their okay.

Time to ignore them all. Look here.

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8kY6IXvjok&t=248s[/VIDEO]

[bistander]

Tires = coils, not

That’s like saying you have measured the performance of a car with square tires and are asking where do ROUND tires fit into the calculations. They don’t, because you have square tires on the car. But you keep on driving the car with square tires. You truly deserve it.

Strange. The authors compare rectangular to trapezoidal shaped coils. What leads you to think their work does not apply to any shape of coil?

[BroMikey]

I know you said that was a 12 wire coil, but that bobbin doesn’t appear full. Do you remember how many feet of wire you had on it? It isn’t putting out the voltage I would expect, but you are running that motor on 12 volts, right? So when it drops down to between one and two amps input your watts in would be 1.5-2 amps x 12 volts or between 18-24 watts input, with an output of how many volts at how many amps?

My coil was from junk wire but it waas a great first try at 24 strand
175feet each of #29 wire. It wire is to small to get good amps out but
if you are looking for high voltage it is great. cept the wire started breaking
down cause it is only rated at 600v. I ran 800v plus thru it, didn't know
the thin wire with so many strands would run up that high, but now I do.

4200 feet total but speed up came at 8 strands on up, the more I used
the faster it will go.

I tried to tell you Bi was stubborn and unwilling to learn new tricks.
He is a closed door i think with a response like that last one. Crooked coils?
or trapezoid? Excuse me...........

[bistander]

Odd

Just remember, the MORE your coil speeds up under load the LESS it produces as a generator coil. ...

Not that I care, or expect an answer from you, let alone a reasonable explanation, but the deal had always been:

Run at no-load. ( ie. Generator coil(s) open circuit, or zero coil current)

Measure speed (RPM)

Put load on generator coil(s) causing current in the coil(s)

Notice speed increase (higher RPM)

So now you say that the generator coil(s) produce less when loaded and the RPM increases. Less than zero?

[Aaron]

you don't get it

Not that I care, or expect an answer from you, let alone a reasonable explanation, but the deal had always been:

Run at no-load. ( ie. Generator coil(s) open circuit, or zero coil current)

Measure speed (RPM)

Put load on generator coil(s) causing current in the coil(s)

Notice speed increase (higher RPM)

So now you say that the generator coil(s) produce less when loaded and the RPM increases. Less than zero?

What do you mean "now" he says that - that is all he has said and he has said that many times.



No load best results and if speeding it up, will unload the motor even more but generator coil output goes down. Makes perfect sense and indicates that you have been arguing with him in the 3 battery thread but have not comprehended a word he has said - or just don't care and want to continue to make it look like what he says doesn't make sense even though you just don't get it.



Do you consider a short circuited generator coil to be a load? There is obviously current in the coil and it creates a counter opposing magnetic field - a perfect demonstration of Lenz's Law.

[BroMikey]

In Other Words

As you add windings in series there is a point where I reached a null.
For this coil around 6 thru 8 strands did not slow down the rotor nor
did it speed up. After that as I began adding more and more strands
in series the rotor speed kept getting faster and faster and faster but the
energy I could pull from my coil got lower and lower and lower respectively.

That is what Turion means. So in my case at 3000rmp's 20 magnet rotor
4200foot coil at strand number 18 in series most of the 40 plus watts
made available by the coil was helping the mechanical action. Dropping
the number of series windings still helped mechanical to aid the rotor
action but more electrical to power things.

[bistander]

Common definitions

What do you mean "now" he says that - that is all he has said and he has said that many times.



No load best results and if speeding it up, will unload the motor even more but generator coil output goes down. Makes perfect sense and indicates that you have been arguing with him in the 3 battery thread but have not comprehended a word he has said - or just don't care and want to continue to make it look like what he says doesn't make sense even though you just don't get it.



Do you consider a short circuited generator coil to be a load? There is obviously current in the coil and it creates a counter opposing magnetic field - a perfect demonstration of Lenz's Law.

No-load = open circuit which means zero current.

Short circuit = zero resistance connection of output terminals. Result is "short circuit" current and zero voltage.

No-load results in "no-load" voltage and zero current so is zero power output.

Short circuit results in current (usually maximum current) and zero voltage so is zero power output.

Short circuit typically is considered loaded. The load is the coil itself because there is current flowing in the coil and the coil has resistance, so IsquaredR power loss in the coil, but zero power to any external load due to the shorted terminals.

Whenever I've read about the speed up under load or watched video demonstrations, the starting condition was no-load meaning coil terminals open circuit. Then the loaded condition had a resistance (often light bulb) across the coil terminals or in some cases, the loaded condition was simply a short circuit across the coil terminals.

How am I mistaken here?

bi

[Aaron]

shorted generator

No-load = open circuit which means zero current.

Short circuit = zero resistance connection of output terminals. Result is "short circuit" current and zero voltage.

No-load results in "no-load" voltage and zero current so is zero power output.

Short circuit results in current (usually maximum current) and zero voltage so is zero power output.

Short circuit typically is considered loaded. The load is the coil itself because there is current flowing in the coil and the coil has resistance, so IsquaredR power loss in the coil, but zero power to any external load due to the shorted terminals.

Whenever I've read about the speed up under load or watched video demonstrations, the starting condition was no-load meaning coil terminals open circuit. Then the loaded condition had a resistance (often light bulb) across the coil terminals or in some cases, the loaded condition was simply a short circuit across the coil terminals.

How am I mistaken here?

bi

Nobody said you're mistaken on this one point there but you like to wiggle around with your answers.



I'll ask something else...


What happens when you short a generator that is holding up to the laws you believe in?



A simple answer without the slippery talk is preferred.

And why does a generator do what it does when you short the output?

[bistander]

Answers

Nobody said you're mistaken on this one point there but you like to wiggle around with your answers.



I'll ask something else...


What happens when you short a generator that is holding up to the laws you believe in?



A simple answer without the slippery talk is preferred.

And why does a generator do what it does when you short the output?

Aaron,

In a well designed generator, shorting the output will tend to bring the machine to a screeching halt. If the prime mover is strong enough to overcome the generator's strong torque opposing rotation, the generator will blow circuit protection or burn up from overload. Shorting the generator output causes very high currents which react with the magnetic field and produce torque according to Lorentz. Depending on the particular generator design other things may occur. Armature reaction may demagnetize the field and rotation could continue with severely diminished output. In a magnetic loose generator like is often the case with machines without proper magnetic circuits (backiron and such), the armature reaction will weaken the field such that the machine will not produce excessive torque or possibly not even overheat, but rather continue to rotate and generate using the armature as its load.

This is easy to demonstrate for yourself. Most would have a PM DC 2-wire motor around the workbench. I just tried this with a MY6812 sitting in front of me. You would agree, I hope, this motor or similar can be used as a generator. So first, with it no-load (nothing connected to the terminals), twist the shaft by hand. You feel a little resistance to the twisting, but it is possible to get it up to a fairly rapid rotation. Now short circuit the terminals. Twist again. At very slow rotation, little difference is felt. But try an attempt to give it a very quick spin. You cannot rotate it very fast at all.

Regards,

bi

[BroMikey]

My coil was from junk wire but it waas a great first try at 24 strand
175feet each of #29 wire. The wire is to small to get good amps out but
if you are looking for high voltage it is great. cept the wire started breaking
down cause it is only rated at 600v. I ran 800v plus thru it, didn't know
the thin wire with so many strands would run up that high, but now I do.

4200 feet total but speed up came at 8 strands on up, the more I used
the faster it will go.

[bistander]

Simple answer

Turion,

It just seemed like an odd statement. A simple reply would suffice, like:

No, not from no-load but increased speed above rated load.

Or something to that effect.

Sorry. I didn't mean to to start anything. There was no insult in my query.

Regards,

bi

[ricards]

what is the goal?

the discussion from you guys really is a hot one, but what exactly is the goal?.. is it not to make progress?.. and determine the truth?..

12 strands of #23 wire Wound parallel and connected in series.. 2 sets? 3 sets?.

2800+++ rpm multiplied by how many magnets on the rotor?..
you can get the frequency by those variables.

coil bobbin?.. Iron Core?..

don't like tinkering?.. and don't like turion's build?..

coil's inductance can be measured and calculated.

if you have a pre-determined rpm and a defined rotors with magnets, you can define a working frequency.

you can easily get the value of the capacitor needed for the resonant point of that coil via L C or R L C.

I really think that shouldn't be a problem to someone who have a very broad experience with motors and generators.

I do believe the Idea has been laid out.

If you really think Turion is wrong about his measurements, and if you really are sincere about this you should build it and prove him wrong.

like tesla to hertz.

[bistander]

Generator speed up under load

Hi all,

I happened across this video which I think is an excellent demonstration and explanation of generator speed up under load.

https://youtu.be/vAXQBpuLu68

Regards,

bi

[bistander]

V_oc and I_sc

Here is a nice article about no-load (or open circuit voltage, V_oc) and short circuit current (I_sc). It is for a wind generator, 3-phase, but the Turion type generator would behave similarly.

https://www.windynation.com/jzv/inf/...ircuit-current

Regards,

bi