The bistander thread

[Turion]

What I stated is not relevant??? Your statement;

#1.) A motor runs at no load without a rotor attached to its external shaft at a certain RPM and current draw (amps), say from a 24V battery.
#2.) A generator's rotor is connected to that motor shaft with generator coils connected to a load, while the source 24V battery remains the same, and the motor increases RPM and reduces current draw(amps) compared to the values seen on #1.

1.So a motor turning a rotor runs at a specific voltage and rpm.
2. When generator coils are placed near the rotor and connected to a load, there is no increase in amp draw by the motor and the rpm is the same.

That’s exactly what I just said that you say is NOT relevant. It’s EXACTLY the same thing. And it is EXACTLY what I have said all along. I’m DONE arguing this stupidity with you.

[Quantum_well]

Baffling!!

When the generator is put under load the motor speeds up to an RPM greater than that which it attained when running on 24 volts with NO rotor in place. The amp draw of the motor is LESS than what it was running on 24 volts with no rotor in place.

I read this carefully several times.
What you are suggesting is that the generator is supplying a load and also, to some extent, turning the drive motor. Ie. the drive motor is using less energy than it was when running "free".
This is absolutely incredible!!!!!

[bistander]

Denial

What I stated is not relevant??? Your statement;


1.So a motor turning a rotor runs at a specific voltage and rpm.
2. When generator coils are placed near the rotor and connected to a load, there is no increase in amp draw by the motor and the rpm is the same.

That’s exactly what I just said that you say is NOT relevant. It’s EXACTLY the same thing. And it is EXACTLY what I have said all along. I’m DONE arguing this stupidity with you.

Turion,

Your original statement (claim):

...
When the generator is put under load the motor speeds up to an RPM greater than that which it attained when running on 24 volts with NO rotor in place. The amp draw of the motor is LESS than what it was running on 24 volts with no rotor in place.
...

I paraphrased it so there was no misunderstanding of what you claimed. Now you confuse it on purpose. Let me highlight the critical parts of the new claim:

...
When the generator is put under load the motor speeds up to an RPM greater than that which it attained when running on 24 volts with NO rotor in place. The amp draw of the motor is LESS than what it was running on 24 volts with no rotor in place.
...

RPM greater than with no rotor. Got that?

And:

...
When the generator is put under load the motor speeds up to an RPM greater than that which it attained when running on 24 volts with NO rotor in place. The amp draw of the motor is LESS than what it was running on 24 volts with no rotor in place.
...

Amp draw less than with no rotor. Got that?

That is not the same as this:

1.So a motor turning a rotor runs at a specific voltage and rpm.
2. When generator coils are placed near the rotor and connected to a load, there is no increase in amp draw by the motor and the rpm is the same.

That’s exactly what I just said that you say is NOT relevant. It’s EXACTLY the same thing. And it is EXACTLY what I have said all along.

You have never claimed increasing RPM and decreasing amps over that which the motor runs without the rotor before like you did today. It is a new claim which is ridiculous and you know it but try to confuse the issue or live in some space of denial. Words have meaning. I don't think you know that. You just say or claim anything you want without any real basis.

Regards,

bi

[Turion]

Clarity

bi,
OK,
NOW I see what you are saying. And to be perfectly honest, I did NOT mean to say “without the rotor”. That was a mistake on my part. I guess I need to read what I write more carefully. I am so tired of being told I am wrong when I know I am right that I have little patience. So you are right and I am wrong. I am happy to admit that when it is TRUE. What I meant to say is that with the coils in place and under load it will have a lower amp draw and a higher RPM than it did with JUST the rotor in place.


Quantum_Well,
Read what I just posted above. Now there is a CHANCE that it could be speeding up more than it did WITHOUT the rotor in place and drawing less amps, but I will not make that claim. I have not tested for that nor measured to see if that can happen. How could I believe that it is even possible?

The whole issue with Lenz is that the coil core turns into a electromagnet that repels the approaching magnet on the rotor, slowing the rotor DOWN. By winding the coil correctly, you increase its capacitance so that it doesn’t become an electromagnet until the rotor magnet has reached top dead center. The rotor magnet is then PUSHED away by the electromagnet in the direction of rotation. It is a MOTORING action produced by the generator coils. It is NOT rocket science. Or, gee, I guess it’s simple physics, so maybe it IS rocket science. Could you get enough acceleration out of this arrangement to go faster than without the coil in place? I wouldn’t doubt it, but I have not seen it myself. It IS a motor after all. But you would probably not get much as a generator if you tuned it for that. And it WOULD have to be tuned to be a motor rather than a generator, which defeats its purpose.

Dave

[BroMikey]

Hi Turion,.......

Very poor forum manners to bulk delete.

bi

It's a fake.

Like Turion's genny, a planet saving machine. Some guy in India probably has it packed away in a box because he's too busy. I truly wish it was real. But incredible claims need credible proof.

bi

Perhaps your white bird is a ghost.

Not claims of fantastic unbelievable performance ...............

Just another lie coming from Dave? Not nice at all Bi

When an engine is used to to drive a conventional generator head a
governor is employed to raise the rpm's via the throttle. This increase=
hp and oil consumption. That is the way it is today.

With the new innovation for generators the input drive does not have
a governor. This is due to the fact that these new coils do not reverse
polarity until after TDC. That is a completely different discussion and can
only be rehearsed with engineering level students.

These attempted to sway programmed persons only offer pablo in
regards to the in debt design topology. Buy your magnets today
and begin.

[bistander]

OK

bi,
OK,
NOW I see what you are saying. And to be perfectly honest, I did NOT mean to say “without the rotor”. That was a mistake on my part. I guess I need to read what I write more carefully. I am so tired of being told I am wrong when I know I am right that I have little patience. So you are right and I am wrong. I am happy to admit that when it is TRUE. What I meant to say is that with the coils in place and under load it will have a lower amp draw and a higher RPM than it did with JUST the rotor in place.


Quantum_Well,
Read what I just posted above. Now there is a CHANCE that it could be speeding up more than it did WITHOUT the rotor in place and drawing less amps, but I will not make that claim. I have not tested for that nor measured to see if that can happen. How could I believe that it is even possible?

The whole issue with Lenz is that the coil core turns into a electromagnet that repels the approaching magnet on the rotor, slowing the rotor DOWN. By winding the coil correctly, you increase its capacitance so that it doesn’t become an electromagnet until the rotor magnet has reached top dead center. The rotor magnet is then PUSHED away by the electromagnet in the direction of rotation. It is a MOTORING action produced by the generator coils. It is NOT rocket science. Or, gee, I guess it’s simple physics, so maybe it IS rocket science. Could you get enough acceleration out of this arrangement to go faster than without the coil in place? I wouldn’t doubt it, but I have not seen it myself. It IS a motor after all. But you would probably not get much as a generator if you tuned it for that. And it WOULD have to be tuned to be a motor rather than a generator, which defeats its purpose.

Dave

OK Turion,

Let's leave it at that.

Regards,

bi

[BroMikey]

Bi you should be ashamed, but you are unable.

OK Turion,

Let's leave it at that.

Regards,

bi

I don't care. Waste your time with it. But please, don't try to convince me that it in any way substantiates your (2kw out)/(300w in) claim.

bi

[bistander]

To whom it may concern

To all,

It appears that Turion deleted his posts on this thread which he made prior to 08/28/2019. I don't like when that happens and is a reason that I quote posts to which I reply. The author may be able to delete his post but the quote in my post remains visible so at least I keep some context. I can't do anything about the missing posts now except, as thread starter, offer apologies to readers.

Also, in case it isn't obvious to readers, I ignore BM. I don't want to try to censure, not that I could anyway, but what the heck? I guess any member can post anything here provided it adheres to forum rules. Nothing says that I, or anyone else, must reply, or even pay attention to the BS that BM writes.

Regards,

bi

[BroMikey]

To all,
.............offer apologies to readers.
I ignore BM. or even pay attention to the BS that BM writes.

Regards,

bi

That is because I don't try to discredit Dave for open and honest sharing
nor do I like insults coming from you in the form of liar liar. You are the
person who does not play nice only later to come back to say how kind
you are, of course playing your victim card. Poor little mr innocence.
AKA Innocent Bi Stander. Then only to change back and forth to BI as
if we all don't know what "BI" means.

BI directional either or wishy washy game playing sir innocence. You
are only fooling yourself. Even Aaron has tried to talk rationally to you
and you display blatant rejection of good reasoning.

It is bad manners to call people a liar consistently. Of course I do not
expect a person such as yourself to show us good judgement with so
many programmed conflicts part of your world.

[Quantum_well]

Synchronous capacitor.

Screenshot_20190922-215010.jpg

[Quantum_well]

Speed up.

I chose the worst performing generator to show my point.
The only time "speed up" is of benefit would be where I have coloured green.
Under that you're just rearranging deck chairs.

[Quantum_well]

Performance curves.

I think its futile trying to assess the performance of a generator by observing the current drawn by the drive motor.
Notice how poor 1hp. performs against the 100hp.

Screenshot_20190922-234721.jpg

[Turion]

Speed up under load

I have probably said this 100 times and still you guys don’t get it.
There are two factors that make running a standard generator ridiculously impractical with an electric motor.

1. For each coil you add around the rotor you are adding a specific mass of iron in the coil core that the rotating magnets are attracted to. At low speed you get cogging, but at high speed the cogging goes away. However, there is still magnetic drag. This is the inherent attraction of the moving magnets to stationary iron. The magnets want to stop their rotation and align with the iron core. This is a fact and you can’t change it. This requires ADDITIONAL amps through the motor to maintain operational speed as you add more and more coils. You can, however, create an opposing force that neutralizes this attraction. That is what my opposition magnets do. Add as many coils as you want. There is NO drag and NO increased amp draw by the motor.

2. The second issue you have is that every coil with an iron core is subject to Lenz. This means that when the coil is under load, as each rotor magnet approaches the coil it creates electrical current in the coil that creates a magnetic field in the core that repels the approaching magnet on the rotor. This means you must provide the drive motor with more amps to maintain the same operational rpm in order to overcome this resistance. With a properly wound coil you increase capacitance so that the forming of the electromagnet is DELAYED until the approaching magnet has reached top dead center. Now the magnet is repelled in the direction of rotation assisting in that rotation or “speeding up under load.” If you adjust the variables (length of wire, number of strands in parallel or volts and amps input to motor) you can establish a condition where the input to the motor is at its lowest while the output of the generator coil is at its highest and get a neutral condition where the drive motor is neither slowed down NOR accelerated. This is optimal. My generator running at full speed and suddenly having all the coils connected to a load would bog down and draw over 30 amps, (on my 30 amp in line shunted meter.). With properly wound coils it draws 12 amps in the same condition.

These two inovations allow you to run a VERY LARGE generator with a very small electric motor. If you see no advantage in that then, by all means, continue on your way and pay NO attention to anything I have said.

[bistander]

The Law

I have probably said this 100 times and still you guys don’t get it.
There are two factors that make running a standard generator ridiculously impractical with an electric motor.

1. For each coil you add around the rotor you are adding a specific mass of iron in the coil core that the rotating magnets are attracted to. At low speed you get cogging, but at high speed the cogging goes away. However, there is still magnetic drag. This is the inherent attraction of the moving magnets to stationary iron. The magnets want to stop their rotation and align with the iron core. This is a fact and you can’t change it. This requires ADDITIONAL amps through the motor to maintain operational speed as you add more and more coils. You can, however, create an opposing force that neutralizes this attraction. That is what my opposition magnets do. Add as many coils as you want. There is NO drag and NO increased amp draw by the motor.

2. The second issue you have is that every coil with an iron core is subject to Lenz. This means that when the coil is under load, as each rotor magnet approaches the coil it creates electrical current in the coil that creates a magnetic field in the core that repels the approaching magnet on the rotor. This means you must provide the drive motor with more amps to maintain the same operational rpm in order to overcome this resistance. With a properly wound coil you increase capacitance so that the forming of the electromagnet is DELAYED until the approaching magnet has reached top dead center. Now the magnet is repelled in the direction of rotation assisting in that rotation or “speeding up under load.” If you adjust the variables (length of wire, number of strands in parallel or volts and amps input to motor) you can establish a condition where the input to the motor is at its lowest while the output of the generator coil is at its highest and get a neutral condition where the drive motor is neither slowed down NOR accelerated. This is optimal. My generator running at full speed and suddenly having all the coils connected to a load would bog down and draw over 30 amps, (on my 30 amp in line shunted meter.). With properly wound coils it draws 12 amps in the same condition.

These two inovations allow you to run a VERY LARGE generator with a very small electric motor. If you see no advantage in that then, by all means, continue on your way and pay NO attention to anything I have said.

Hi Turion,

You can disregard the Law, but it still applies. It is called Lorentz Force. A functioning generator necessarily has magnetic flux through the coil and when loaded, has current through the conductors of that coil, therefore developes a force opposing motion.

Just for kicks, I dare you to demonstrate your two claims stated above. I know you have said you've seen this, but we know what you see isn't always real, don't we?

Regards,

bi

[bistander]

Motor-generators

...
There are two factors that make running a standard generator ridiculously impractical with an electric motor.
...

Motor-generators, commonly called M-G sets, are by no means "ridiculously impractical". They have been used for various applications for over a hundred years and many still used today, effectively and efficiently. These M-G sets are a combination of a standard electric motor and standard generator coupled together on the shaft.

Regards,

bi