The bistander thread

[Sawt2]

Great going to battery man Altrez

Looks like you got a positive result. The issue of plate heating at such high C rates is not a valid concern on BYE"S part. He has no clue. Either way your battery should have been dead long ago but bye won't admit.

Mikey
i think you may have misunderstood what bi wrote, 300ma is the c20 discharge rate for a 7ah battery, (technically it would be 350 but no big deal) Altrez said he had the 3 batteries in parallel, which would be 21 ah’s. The c20 rate would then be 1.05 amps. Altrez used 300ma as the discharge rate, which would explain the 60 hr discharge. Ie; C60 rate. I don’t know if in the whole spectrum of testing if that changes Altrez’s results or not. 3) 7ah batteries discharged at c20 rate would still take 60 hours +/-

[altrez]

Hi Altrez,
thanks for the run down.

Efficiency is defined as Power out / Power in × 100% for the normal converters such as motors, generators, Transformers, etc. When systems contain energy storage capability, system efficiency becomes Energy out / Energy in × 100% with the stipulation that the energy stored in the system is the same after the time period as it was before.

What did you use for efficiency calculation?

Why did you test 3 batteries in parallel into a 300 mA load? That would be 100mA per battery. Or C60 rate. Greater than 7Ah would be expected.

Did you hold the 300mA constant? Or did it vary over duration of test?

Regards,
bi

Hello Bistander,

To calculate the efficiency I simply compared run times, I know it is not the best way, however it seemed to be the simplest way for me to understand the testing. I wanted to test 3 battery's in parallel to try and make the test as fair as possible because I was using 3 battery's with the 3B setup.

I have a DC load generator that kept the load as close to .300ma as possible, there was a +/-.50mA difference at times as it needs some intervention when the battery's start getting low. Here is the unit I am using and I plan on upgrading to a better one on my next round of testing:



I do plan a new round of tests, I am very open to any suggestions you might have to make the test more accurate. I have data loggers and battery testers that I use in the tests I preform.

The plan next is to purchase 3 new 12volt 7 ah battery's and test each one with logging on a .300mA load. I will then recharge and test with the 3BGS. There is a better way to do it for sure and I am willing to put in the time if you can think of a better way!

Take Care,

-Altrez

[BroMikey]

Mikey
i think you may have misunderstood what bi wrote, 300ma is the c20 discharge rate for a 7ah battery, (technically it would be 350 but no big deal) Altrez said he had the 3 batteries in parallel, which would be 21 ah’s. The c20 rate would then be 1.05 amps. Altrez used 300ma as the discharge rate, which would explain the 60 hr discharge. Ie; C60 rate. I don’t know if in the whole spectrum of testing if that changes Altrez’s results or not. 3) 7ah batteries discharged at c20 rate would still take 60 hours +/-

Yes I understand. However isn't more important to note that he got one hundred percent? Less plate heating yes.

[bistander]

Hello Bistander,

To calculate the efficiency I simply compared run times, I know it is not the best way, however it seemed to be the simplest way for me to understand the testing. ...

Hi Altrez,

Yeah, such a comparison is not efficiency by any accepted definition of which I am aware. Your resulting percentage is a comparison..... I don't know what else to call it. With your percentage numbers I don't follow what you used as denominator. You say time. Numerator was the time for discharge of the system under test. What was that divided by to arrive at a fraction (%)?

I remember now. Been a while. You're the guy who got a mooshimeter back early in 2019. That thread, closed now, was sidetracked with Turion's OU generator claims. Sorry about that.

Efficiency of battery performance is output (discharge) energy divided by input (charge) energy times 100%. The mooshimeter appeared well suited instrument enabling data collection via spreadsheet such that efficiency calculation could be done. I started to do this and got sidetracked by life. I'll get the old laptop fired up and see if I can find those files or simply start over. Had the mooshimeter out just last week. Want to use it. That'd be a good exercise.

There was another member who ran a 3BS system vs straight battery discharge. Luc or Brad maybe. I'll see if I can find and link it. IIRC, comparison was equal on discharge times.

Regards,
bi

[Turion]

Altrez,

Unless you have discovered something in your research that I don’t know about the 3 Battery system, I don’t know HOW you could possibly be successful running it with those small batteries, especially without a pulse motor like the Matt motor to provide pulsed charge to the 3rd battery, and you would want a boost module to assure you are hitting that battery constantly with enough voltage to charge it. As the battery charges the potential difference can dip below battery voltage and charge efficiency goes in the toilet. How will you overcome these issues to do a REAL and proper test?

Do you have a way of coming up with the pulse motor needed? I do NOT currently have one, as I gave too many away. I have enough parts to put a couple together, but I do not have the time, and would be willing to send you the parts to make one, possibly including the wire (will have to check on that...not sure I have any) I also have a spare boost module or two around here somewhere.

if you are willing to make that effort to do PROPER testing, and are going to purchase NEW batteries, hold off until I get the answers to the questions I have just asked. I am always willing, when I have the money, to put my money where my mouth is and I could probably come up with $300-400 for you to add to what you were GOING to spend on batteries to get some GOOD deep cycle batteries. Or possibly Lithium iron phosphate batteries that will handle charging and discharging better.

I would love to see somebody take the time to test the 3 Battery system properly and shut some people up who have no idea what they are talking about. Let me know.

Had a thought. If you REALLY want to see the potential of this system, you should build the single battery circuit bi says HE tested with no positive results. Far LESS expensive to build and Ivan show you how to set it up and PROPERLY test it. Still need that pulse motor, but only ONE battery.


Dave

[bistander]

Hi Altrez,

It was luc running those battery tests. See post#110 video by him showing battery efficiency test.
http://www.energeticforum.com/forum/...ge8#post421408

Regards,
bi

[bistander]

Altrez,

Unless you have discovered something in your research that I don’t know about the 3 Battery system, I don’t know HOW you could possibly be successful running it with those small batteries, especially without a pulse motor like the Matt motor to provide pulsed charge to the 3rd battery, and you would want a boost module to assure you are hitting that battery constantly with enough voltage to charge it. As the battery charges the potential difference can dip below battery voltage and charge efficiency goes in the toilet. How will you overcome these issues to do a REAL and proper test?

Do you have a way of coming up with the pulse motor needed? I do NOT currently have one, as I gave too many away. I have enough parts to put a couple together, but I do not have the time, and would be willing to send you the parts to make one, possibly including the wire (will have to check on that...not sure I have any) I also have a spare boost module or two around here somewhere.

if you are willing to make that effort to do PROPER testing, and are going to purchase NEW batteries, hold off until I get the answers to the questions I have just asked. I am always willing, when I have the money, to put my money where my mouth is and I could probably come up with $300-400 for you to add to what you were GOING to spend on batteries to get some GOOD deep cycle batteries. Or possibly Lithium iron phosphate batteries that will handle charging and discharging better.

I would love to see somebody take the time to test the 3 Battery system properly and shut some people up who have no idea what they are talking about. Let me know.

Had a thought. If you REALLY want to see the potential of this system, you should build the single battery circuit bi says HE tested with no positive results. Far LESS expensive to build and Ivan show you how to set it up and PROPERLY test it. Still need that pulse motor, but only ONE battery.


Dave

Turion says "and Ivan show you how to set it up and PROPERLY test it."

Who's Ivan?

bi

[Turion]

Ivan is my cousin in Russia. Either that, or I meant to type “I can” instead of “Ivan”. Not sure which.

I love that Luc’s test is the “definitive” evaluation of the 3 battery system. He was told BY ME prior to beginning the tests that he would get NO positive results using THOSE batteries because they were far too small and offer too much impedance to being charged. Something I have said from DAY ONE about the 3 Battery System.

His response was that it was all he could afford and if he saw positive results, THEN he would invest in large, deep cycle batteries. His results were a foregone conclusion.

How about that bet bi? Grow a spine yet? Still flapping your feathers I see. Put up or shut up.

[bistander]

Ivan is my cousin in Russia. Either that, or I meant to type “I can” instead of “Ivan”. Not sure which.

I love that Luc’s test is the “definitive” evaluation of the 3 battery system. He was told BY ME prior to beginning the tests that he would get NO positive results using THOSE batteries because they were far too small and offer too much impedance to being charged. Something I have said from DAY ONE about the 3 Battery System.

His response was that it was all he could afford and if he saw positive results, THEN he would invest in large, deep cycle batteries. His results were a foregone conclusion.

How about that bet bi? Grow a spine yet? Still flapping your feathers I see. Put up or shut up.

Turion, you say "definitive". Who are you quoting? It's not me. I never said that about his test. Although it does look like a valid test for what it was. IIRC he was in the process of preparing larger batteries to repeat the test but was driven away by some members.
regards,
bi

[Turion]

There is no valid test with batteries that small. How about that bet? Put up or shut up.

[altrez]

Altrez,

Unless you have discovered something in your research that I don’t know about the 3 Battery system, I don’t know HOW you could possibly be successful running it with those small batteries, especially without a pulse motor like the Matt motor to provide pulsed charge to the 3rd battery, and you would want a boost module to assure you are hitting that battery constantly with enough voltage to charge it. As the battery charges the potential difference can dip below battery voltage and charge efficiency goes in the toilet. How will you overcome these issues to do a REAL and proper test?

Do you have a way of coming up with the pulse motor needed? I do NOT currently have one, as I gave too many away. I have enough parts to put a couple together, but I do not have the time, and would be willing to send you the parts to make one, possibly including the wire (will have to check on that...not sure I have any) I also have a spare boost module or two around here somewhere.

if you are willing to make that effort to do PROPER testing, and are going to purchase NEW batteries, hold off until I get the answers to the questions I have just asked. I am always willing, when I have the money, to put my money where my mouth is and I could probably come up with $300-400 for you to add to what you were GOING to spend on batteries to get some GOOD deep cycle batteries. Or possibly Lithium iron phosphate batteries that will handle charging and discharging better.

I would love to see somebody take the time to test the 3 Battery system properly and shut some people up who have no idea what they are talking about. Let me know.

Had a thought. If you REALLY want to see the potential of this system, you should build the single battery circuit bi says HE tested with no positive results. Far LESS expensive to build and Ivan show you how to set it up and PROPERLY test it. Still need that pulse motor, but only ONE battery.


Dave

Dave,

Thank you so much for the offer to help. I like the idea of using the one battery test first. Can you recommend a GOOD battery to buy off Amazon and I will order it. I have some boost modules but if you could please point the best 1 out on Amazon I will order a few of those as well. I will put in the effort and I will pay for everything just need a bit of help with the part list. I have around 1k in my project money at the moment that I can invest in the one battery test.

I will start off with the One battery test and go from there. I will do all the right tests I have all the necessary meters and data loggers. I will check on a motor.

Thanks Again,

-Altrez

[altrez]

Hi Altrez,

It was luc running those battery tests. See post#110 video by him showing battery efficiency test.
http://www.energeticforum.com/forum/...ge8#post421408

Regards,
bi

Thanks for sharing the link!

-Altrez

[Turion]

ALtrez,
There are lots of guys around who have way more experience with Lithium iron phosphate batteries than I do. Hopefully they will speak up. As for boost modules, you need the most efficient one you can find that will still run between the positives. Some won't. when the sensors see voltage on the negative line they freak out. I'm trying to find spec sheets on ones I have. Meanwell, Drok, and three or four others. Will get back to you.

[BroMikey]

Dave uses super-caps, batteries are obsolete.

[Turion]

Nope. I use a lithium iron battery. A supercap might be a good choice though. I can't say, since I have never owned one.