The bistander thread

[BroMikey]

Me? A coward? Who cares?



bi

Only the straw man

[BroMikey]

This is how energy is created. Here is the proof that energy can be created. Complete with curves, graphs, power analyzer, amp meter, volt meter then math. Engineers only.

All disputes over these facts must be done by the same method with the same level of measuring equipment. A mere grunt or a passing brain fart is not a clear sufficient response to these engineering results.

[bistander]

Voltan,
Same principle at work as in my generator, which I show below. It's what I have been saying for YEARS now. What you have shown is EXACTLY the 7th grade science experiment I asked bystander to do that he hasn't got around to yet. It proves what I have been saying is true. I just configured it differently after many small builds. But I started with EXACTLY the configuration you show. Then I moved to a motor coil as well as a generator coil so I didn't have a motor turning it. And finally I went to the configuration shown below, where the rotor is turned by a small motor and I have multiple coils and multiple sets of magnets on the stator. One set of magnets for each coil pair. An odd number of coils and an even number of magnets on the rotor. If you watch my videos I explain why. I already know it works, so have fun.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPGrCicsZXA
ROTOR SETUP.png

Hi Turion,

I've been working on my set-up. Had it functional to do the tests for a week or so. Got a Lexan scatter shield. Done 8kRPM. Just have 4 magnets on rotor so would like to do 15k. But thought I'd better get some data before going faster just in case. Ran some base data, no cores, one core, then two, then with the anticogging magnet and cores. I intend to plot the data.

Good to see you about to run some tests.
bi

IMG_20210501_164905532.jpg


IMG_20210501_165021585.jpg

[bistander]

For reference, the test which I and Turion are attempting to run was discussed a few months ago, so I show a pertinent post with links to the section of this thread.
bi

“With cores in place and anticogging magnets adjusted, test and record input power to motor at a given speed, say 5000RPM. Next, repeat test with anticogging magnets adjusted all the way out from the rotor, so they have minimal effect. Record input power to the motor for the same speed.”

That is what you requested. The only difference in what I did was to do it with NO neutralization magnets FIRST, and then WITH them second instead of the other way around. With NO magnets in place it took almost 1,000 watts of power to run the motor. With them in place it took about 360 watts. Once again you see what you want to see. HALF of total production of the generator would be eaten up overcoming magnetic drag. The rest would be sacrificed to the god of Lenz. My machine feeds NEITHER, which is why it works.

There you go. Not the same. Big difference in the construction of the two versions involving those anticogging magnets. It just throws too many variables into the mix. To have a valid A vs B comparison test all other variable must be the same. That's the appeal of the new design. You can be tuned to best anticogging, running at speed, no load, and simply back the magnets away from the rotor and see the difference it makes straight away on the input ammeter. What could be easier?

If you run the test which I outlined, according to you, backing the anticogging magnets away from the rotor, making them ineffective, will make the input power to the motor increase, right? I say it won't, in fact I thick it may actually decrease a bit.

Find out if you care about truth.
bi

[BroMikey]

Hi Turion,

I've been working on my set-up. Had it functional to do the tests for a week or so. Got a Lexan scatter shield. Done 8kRPM. Just have 4 magnets on rotor so would like to do 15k. But thought I'd better get some data before going faster just in case. Ran some base data, no cores, one core, then two, then with the anticogging magnet and cores. I intend to plot the data.

Good to see you about to run some tests.
bi

IMG_20210501_164905532.jpg


IMG_20210501_165021585.jpg

Well now I guess I should be ashamed of myself, Bye is making more progress than almost everyone is. Great setup. Dave should be proud of you now. At least yours does not dig dirt or snake out toilets.

[Turion]

bi,
Unless you have some "magic" machine, what you will see is this
With no coils (and their cores) in place the motor draws the least current and has the greatest RPM for a set voltage input.
As each coil (and its core) is added, it negatively impacts both the RPM and the amp draw, meaning the RPM goes DOWN and the amp draw goes UP.
When magnetic neutralization is added, even with all the coils in place, you can return the motor to near its original RPM and original amp draw with the original voltage input.
Please tell me I'm wrong. But, uhhhhhh, you can't.

You people who claim that the attraction of the rotor magnet FOREWARD to the core on approach is offset by the attraction of the rotor magnet BACKWARDS as it moves away are EQUAL and therefore there is "nothing to see here" need to consider that cogging itself PROVES there is a moment in time where the rotor magnet and coil are aligned which is not "offset " by ANYTHING or cogging would not exist. And it does NOT go away at speed. It is simply smoothed out the faster you go. But the attraction is ALWAYS there, and is what I call magnetic drag. The more coils you have the more amps the motor will draw due to this drag, UNLESS you "offset" it with magnetic repulsion. But you have fun playing with your setup now that you've actually BUILT something.

[bistander]

bi,
Unless you have some "magic" machine, what you will see is this
With no coils (and their cores) in place the motor draws the least current and has the greatest RPM for a set voltage input.
As each coil (and its core) is added, it negatively impacts both the RPM and the amp draw, meaning the RPM goes DOWN and the amp draw goes UP.
When magnetic neutralization is added, even with all the coils in place, you can return the motor to near its original RPM and original amp draw with the original voltage input.
Please tell me I'm wrong. But, uhhhhhh, you can't.

You people who claim that the attraction of the rotor magnet FOREWARD to the core on approach is offset by the attraction of the rotor magnet BACKWARDS as it moves away are EQUAL and therefore there is "nothing to see here" need to consider that cogging itself PROVES there is a moment in time where the rotor magnet and coil are aligned which is not "offset " by ANYTHING or cogging would not exist. And it does NOT go away at speed. It is simply smoothed out the faster you go. But the attraction is ALWAYS there, and is what I call magnetic drag. The more coils you have the more amps the motor will draw due to this drag, UNLESS you "offset" it with magnetic repulsion. But you have fun playing with your setup now that you've actually BUILT something.

Thanks for chiming in. But as usual, you confuse coils and cores. Coils have nothing to do with either cogging or magnetic drag. At this time, I have no coils for my test rig. I am looking at testing input power (watts from the battery powering the electric motor on which the rotor disc is attached) vs position of a neutralization magnet supported by the stator at 180° from core #1. I have 4 magnets equally spaced on the rotor, N facing stator on all. The neutralization magnet is the same as the rotor magnets, N facing the rotor, mounted on a fiberglass 1/2-13 threaded rod. I can also use a second core at 90° from #1. Cores are nickel plated steel 1/2-13 threaded rod. Axial air gaps to cores and to neutralization magnet are adjustable from 0.020" to about 2" by twisting the rods, one twist = 1/13^th inch.
Cogging is clearly evident when rotor magnets pass cores (attraction). Opposite (anti-cogging?) is evident when attempting to align a rotor magnet with the stator mounted magnet in opposition (repulsion) when steel cores are backed away. It is possible to set steel core(s) at minimum gap (.040") and adjust stator magnet to position where it neutralizes the attraction of magnets to core(s). However some cogging is still noticeable from the small PM motor.

I've been able to collect data up to 8,000RPM. I've used both a wattmeter and an ammeter. The ammeter is more accurate but only good to 3A. To get a good range with the wattmeter I feel higher frequency is needed. To these ends, I've ordered additional magnets. I only had 5. Using all. I did make provisions for 12 on the rotor. That'll give me 3x frequency without going faster. I did run to 13,000RPM last night but don't like that. Vibration and commutation arcing are problem. I'd rather just wait a few days.

I'll wait until I get more data and analyze it further before presenting it here. That shouldn't be long.

Turion, will you set up your machine with only one or two cores, no coils, and neutralization magnet(s) so cogging is minimized and then under constant speed, back out the neutralization magnet(s) while observing current input to motor so we both have a similar test to compare?
bi

[alexelectric]

Very good Mr. bistander


Good thing, you are going to do the tests, at least with regard to the magnetic neutralization magnets that help reduce the drag of the magnet and coil core (Mr. Dave's approach).

Remember that Mr. Dave's test says that when you put more cores you have more attractions between the magnets and the cores (magnet attractions - cores), and that translates into greater amperage consumption in the drive motor, and if not so i would be overjoyed because i could build the generator by adding any number of cores without increasing drive motor amperage.

But we will see that Mr. Bi's tests and Mr. Dave's tests return, they will coincide, opposite results will be obtained, let's wait for the results.

[bistander]

Very good Mr. bistander


Good thing, you are going to do the tests, at least with regard to the magnetic neutralization magnets that help reduce the drag of the magnet and coil core (Mr. Dave's approach).

Remember that Mr. Dave's test says that when you put more cores you have more attractions between the magnets and the cores (magnet attractions - cores), and that translates into greater amperage consumption in the drive motor, and if not so i would be overjoyed because i could build the generator by adding any number of cores without increasing drive motor amperage.

But we will see that Mr. Bi's tests and Mr. Dave's tests return, they will coincide, opposite results will be obtained, let's wait for the results.

Hello Alex,

You say "Remember that Mr. Dave's test says that when you put more cores you have more attractions between the magnets and the cores (magnet attractions - cores), and that translates into greater amperage consumption in the drive motor,"

Why tell me?

I have never said otherwise.

Then you say "i could build the generator by adding any number of cores without increasing drive motor amperage."
This is what Turion claims will be the case when his magnetic neutralization scheme is used. And that is untrue.

If you have trouble remembering, go back and read the section of this thread which I linked to above. It's all there.

Regards,
bi

[Turion]

I don't confuse coils with cores. That is something you made up and continue to refer to. I have stated on NUMEROUS OCCASIONS that all my coils have cores, therefore when I place a "coil" next to a magnet, guess what? I have ALSO placed a core next to a magnet. Sorry you have so much trouble comprehending that. Maybe a special class would help? It's your attempt to ALWAYS make yourself look like the smartest person in the room. But you're not. Not even close.

In the testing I discussed here, I stated, and provided video showing that the motor drew 7 amps with NO coils present. (The 12 coil machine in Greyland's shop) I also showed that with the addition of coils the amp draw of the motor increased significantly. I believe I showed that with 4 coils it was already up to over 13 amps. With all 12 coils present it drew over 27 amps. I don't believe I showed this on video, but it is tru none the less. With magnetic neutralization in place it drew 9 amps.

The magnetic drag is almost impossible to completely offset, but there's a pretty significant difference between drawing 9 amps and drawing 27 and burning up the motor. That's the difference between costing 970 watts to turn the machine and 243 watts to turn the machine More important than THAT is the effect magnetic drag that isn't offset has on the RPM of the motor, because that RPM is ALSO reduced which means far LESS is generated than SHOULD BE because the rotor is turning so much slower. So HIGHER input and LOWER output without magnetic neutralization.

You keep asking me to do your experiment. I don't need to. I have done hundreds of experiments with magnetic neutralization. Far more than you will probably EVER do. I know what effect it has on my machine.

I will do testing when I finally get the tachometer. According to Amazon, it will be here by 9:00 PM tomorrow.

First I am going to test the output of a single coil with an iron core to see how many volts and amps it puts out running at a specific RPM with the new rotor. I am shooting for 3,000 RPM, which is the rated speed of the motor on 36 volts. I am also going to look at the RPM required for "NEUTRAL" operation of the core with each of the possible wiring configurations possible with a 12 strand coil as well as the output in voltage and amps of each arrangement at "neutral".
1 strand of 12 wires in series
2 strands of six wires in series
3 strands of four wires in series
4 strands of 3 wires in series
6 strands of 2 wires in series
12 strands
Then I am going to take that coil OUT of the machine and run the machine with NO coil or its core in place and see what the results are. Then I am going to add 10 cores to the machine, one at a time and record the amp draw for each additional coil and the RPM, so I can establish a curve for both measurements. Then I am going to add magnetic neutralization to try and bring the amp draw and RPM back as close to what it was with NO coils in the machine as possible. Then I am going to start testing the different coils I have and am in the process of making. I have a bunch to test.

By the time I am done I should have settled on a core material for my generator. At that point I MAY have to wind ten new coils, or I may be able to salvage some of the ones I will be testing and either put the wire on a new bobbin, or replace the core material.

Some of this data I will probably share. After the conference I will share all of it.

[bistander]

I don't confuse coils with cores. That is something you made up and continue to refer to. I have stated on NUMEROUS OCCASIONS that all my coils have cores, therefore when I place a "coil" next to a magnet, guess what? I have ALSO placed a core next to a magnet. Sorry you have so much trouble comprehending that. Maybe a special class would help? It's your attempt to ALWAYS make yourself look like the smartest person in the room. But you're not. Not even close.

In the testing I discussed here, I stated, and provided video showing that the motor drew 7 amps with NO coils present. (The 12 coil machine in Greyland's shop) I also showed that with the addition of coils the amp draw of the motor increased significantly. I believe I showed that with 4 coils it was already up to over 13 amps. With all 12 coils present it drew over 27 amps. I don't believe I showed this on video, but it is tru none the less. With magnetic neutralization in place it drew 9 amps.

The magnetic drag is almost impossible to completely offset, but there's a pretty significant difference between drawing 9 amps and drawing 27 and burning up the motor. That's the difference between costing 970 watts to turn the machine and 243 watts to turn the machine More important than THAT is the effect magnetic drag that isn't offset has on the RPM of the motor, because that RPM is ALSO reduced which means far LESS is generated than SHOULD BE because the rotor is turning so much slower. So HIGHER input and LOWER output without magnetic neutralization.

You keep asking me to do your experiment. I don't need to. I have done hundreds of experiments with magnetic neutralization. Far more than you will probably EVER do. I know what effect it has on my machine.

I will do testing when I finally get the tachometer. According to Amazon, it will be here by 9:00 PM tomorrow.

First I am going to test the output of a single coil with an iron core to see how many volts and amps it puts out running at a specific RPM with the new rotor. I am shooting for 3,000 RPM, which is the rated speed of the motor on 36 volts. I am also going to look at the RPM required for "NEUTRAL" operation of the core with each of the possible wiring configurations possible with a 12 strand coil as well as the output in voltage and amps of each arrangement at "neutral".
1 strand of 12 wires in series
2 strands of six wires in series
3 strands of four wires in series
4 strands of 3 wires in series
6 strands of 2 wires in series
12 strands
Then I am going to take that coil OUT of the machine and run the machine with NO coil or its core in place and see what the results are. Then I am going to add 10 cores to the machine, one at a time and record the amp draw for each additional coil and the RPM, so I can establish a curve for both measurements. Then I am going to add magnetic neutralization to try and bring the amp draw and RPM back as close to what it was with NO coils in the machine as possible. Then I am going to start testing the different coils I have and am in the process of making. I have a bunch to test.

By the time I am done I should have settled on a core material for my generator. At that point I MAY have to wind ten new coils, or I may be able to salvage some of the ones I will be testing and either put the wire on a new bobbin, or replace the core material.

Some of this data I will probably share. After the conference I will share all of it.

I asked for a simple test to compare with one you asked me to run.
"Turion, will you set up your machine with only one or two cores, no coils, and neutralization magnet(s) so cogging is minimized and then under constant speed, back out the neutralization magnet(s) while observing current input to motor so we both have a similar test to compare?
bi"

You answer with this:
"You keep asking me to do your experiment. I don't need to. I have done hundreds of experiments with magnetic neutralization."

What's the big deal? You afraid? Show everyone what you claim is true, instead of telling us you remember it was 27 amps.

Let's count those cells in the battery on your bench again.
bi

[bistander]

Turion,

All I'm asking is this, except using cores instead of coils as you show in the diagram.

Voltan,
Same principle at work as in my generator, which I show below. It's what I have been saying for YEARS now. What you have shown is EXACTLY the 7th grade science experiment I asked bystander to do that he hasn't got around to yet. It proves what I have been saying is true. I just configured it differently after many small builds. But I started with EXACTLY the configuration you show. Then I moved to a motor coil as well as a generator coil so I didn't have a motor turning it. And finally I went to the configuration shown below, where the rotor is turned by a small motor and I have multiple coils and multiple sets of magnets on the stator. One set of magnets for each coil pair. An odd number of coils and an even number of magnets on the rotor. If you watch my videos I explain why. I already know it works, so have fun.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPGrCicsZXA
ROTOR SETUP.png

Just run it at steady speed and back the stator magnets away showing effect on the motor current. You do it, and I'll do it. You go first. Afraid?
bi

[Turion]

I see no difference between running it with the rotor magnets backed off to begin with so the amp draw of the prime mover can be measured and the RPM can be measured and THEN slowly bringing the opposition magnets into position so that the prime mover speeds up and the amp draw goes down. This I have done HUNDREDS OF TIMES over that last 5 years. HUNDREDS. Every time I have moved my machine I have had to retract all the opposition magnets and retune it. This means that I do it for EACH of the 12 coils EVERY TIME it is moved. I have moved the current machine at least a dozen times, back and forth between my house and Greyland's shop. SO MANY TIMES that I finally just LEFT it at his place. And there were many, many, many versions of the machine before that. You want me to waste all my time retuning the machine just to DETUNE IT? I KNOW the result. Why is doing it "your way" so important? You want to do it "your way" you go right ahead. I may do it when I have the time, since you are only talking about ONE coil, but not until my tach gets here and I get it set up. By the way, as I have said many times before, the effect on the prime mover of one coil is "X" but the effect of 2 coils on the prime mover is MORE than 2 "X". There is a curve, and each coil added has a greater effect on the prime mover than the previous coil did. One coil BARELY affects the prime mover. Four coils can bring it to a grinding halt. Depends on the prime mover. SO the more coils you have on the machine the more obvious the NEED for magnetic neutralization is.

Oh, and remember, when I say coil, it means there is a CORE right in the middle of it. You seem to not be able to remember that.

I'm not afraid to do this experiment. I have done it hundreds of times. I know what the result is. You are the one who needs to learn a thing or two. DO you REALLY believe I could run my machine with all 12 coils in place on an amp draw of only 9 amps by the prime mover if magnetic neutralization DIDN'T do what I claim? REALLY? If so, you know NOTHING about the attraction of magnets to core material. Nothing at all. It's about time you built something and learned a thing or two that others have learned from ACTUALLY BUILDING and observing. Because it's not what you THINK will happen that matters, or what you READ IN A BOOK OR ON WIKIPEDIA will happen that matters. It's what ACTUALLY HAPPENS on there bench that matters. OBSERVED reactions and MEASURED reactions. Good thing you don't think the earth is flat or we'd all fall off the edge. TACH.png

[bistander]

I see no difference between running it with the rotor magnets backed off to begin with so the amp draw of the prime mover can be measured and the RPM can be measured and THEN slowly bringing the opposition magnets into position so that the prime mover speeds up and the amp draw goes down. This I have done HUNDREDS OF TIMES over that last 5 years. HUNDREDS. Every time I have moved my machine I have had to retract all the opposition magnets and retune it. This means that I do it for EACH of the 12 coils EVERY TIME it is moved. I have moved the current machine at least a dozen times, back and forth between my house and Greyland's shop. SO MANY TIMES that I finally just LEFT it at his place. And there were many, many, many versions of the machine before that. You want me to waste all my time retuning the machine just to DETUNE IT? I KNOW the result. Why is doing it "your way" so important? You want to do it "your way" you go right ahead. I may do it when I have the time, since you are only talking about ONE coil, but not until my tach gets here and I get it set up. By the way, as I have said many times before, the effect on the prime mover of one coil is "X" but the effect of 2 coils on the prime mover is MORE than 2 "X". There is a curve, and each coil added has a greater effect on the prime mover than the previous coil did. One coil BARELY affects the prime mover. Four coils can bring it to a grinding halt. Depends on the prime mover. SO the more coils you have on the machine the more obvious the NEED for magnetic neutralization is.

Oh, and remember, when I say coil, it means there is a CORE right in the middle of it. You seem to not be able to remember that.

I'm not afraid to do this experiment. I have done it hundreds of times. I know what the result is. You are the one who needs to learn a thing or two. DO you REALLY believe I could run my machine with all 12 coils in place on an amp draw of only 9 amps by the prime mover if magnetic neutralization DIDN'T do what I claim? REALLY? If so, you know NOTHING about the attraction of magnets to core material. Nothing at all. It's about time you built something and learned a thing or two that others have learned from ACTUALLY BUILDING and observing. Because it's not what you THINK will happen that matters, or what you READ IN A BOOK OR ON WIKIPEDIA will happen that matters. It's what ACTUALLY HAPPENS on there bench that matters. OBSERVED reactions and MEASURED reactions. Good thing you don't think the earth is flat or we'd all fall off the edge. TACH.png

You say "It's what ACTUALLY HAPPENS on there bench that matters. OBSERVED reactions and MEASURED reactions."

Just like you observed, on your bench, six cells in that LiFe battery. What you observe and think actually happens is not always real, is it?

And coils vs cores, again. Been through this before. Magnetic drag, as well as cogging, has nothing to do with standard coils, just the magnets and cores. However, as has been demonstrated, those multifilar coils can cause loading even when the coil leads are open circuit. So when testing for behavior of the core(s), your coils can affect the results when on the core(s) even when unconnected. That is why coil(s) must be omitted from core tests. To verify this, just test, using one or two cores, then repeat identical test using same cores with multifilar coil(s).

Identifying the actual sources of undesirable loading (losses & heat) will enable you to develop better methods of mitigation.
bi
ps. Here's a thought. Is the excessive core heat which you experience due to the multifilar coil loading when operating for long periods with no loads on the coils? You could run for an extended period with cores and no coils and record temperature.

[Turion]

Multifilar coils have NO more effect on the results than a standard coil does, UNLESS THE STRANDS ARE CONNECTED IN SERIES. There is no difference between one strand on a coil and 12 strands in parallel on a coil unless connections are made to put wires in series on the coil with 12 wound in parallel. If you had done the bench work, you would KNOW this. But all YOUR "knowledge" and "understanding" comes from the work of OTHERS that you have "read" about or observed on YouTube.

You keep bringing g up that issue with the battery because it is the only time you've ever been right and I was wrong. You must be so proud. Have you never been right before? Do you have to keep bringing it up because it's the only time you ever were? Do you share it with all your friends? Do you post about it on social media? Do you have the exchange printed out and taped to your wall? Do you call your mommy to tell her you were right once?

I never said magnetic drag or cogging had anything to DO with "coils". But when oner of MY "coils" is ion place, so is a core. I continue to say this and you don't seem to be able to get it through your head. So when one of MY coils is in place, there is cogging and there is magnetic drag, because there IS a core. I don't know how to spell that out for you any clearer than I have on multiple occasions.

I don't "operate with no loads on the coils" so the heat issue is entirely one of crappy core material. The coils are unloaded only long enough to get the machine up to the proper rpm before engaging the load so that the Lenz effect does not take place.

I'm glad to see you are such an expert on how testing SHOULD be conducted. Can't wait for you to do some.