The bistander thread

[bistander]

I have run that circuit HUNDREDS of times with lead acid batteries, but never with lithium. All I have ever gotten from that circuit with lead acid batteries is extended run times. Eventually the batteries always ran down. Wantomake just posted a video using the four battery switch, which simply adds another battery in parallel to the one at the bottom of the schematic you are talking about, and he used an inverter as his load. I'm sure he will be posting all about his results.

I am concentrating on building a single battery looped system because it is pretty hard to argue with a setup that runs a load and keeps the source battery charged. I tried for a long time with lead acid and the batteries just couldn't handle it. The lithium seem to handle it much better, and I want to try the hybrid batteries I was talking about the other day. But first I will exhaust the possibilities with lithium. As some point there should be a load that is compatible with the system that allows everything to work.

So you are telling me you do not have any data, results quantified, or any numbers at all except for "hundreds of times"?

What do you claim, specifically, is the extraordinary result from running this experiment? If I use Lithium 12V nominal batteries, approximately 2Ah rated, what load range would be required to get your results? I'm not sure I have a boost converter, so please give the model (from Amazon please) which you'd not object to after I run the test. Please specify the procedure to run the test.

Thanks.
bi

[Turion]

Why bother to run the tests? You don't believe this works anyway.

My "claim" is that running loads this way you will see extended run times from your batteries. Period. That's all I ever claimed with the 3 Battery System, and it has not changed. Will it run continuously by using boost modules correctly as the load? It wouldn't with Lead Acid batteries, but I have no idea what will happen with lithium.

I have all KINDS of data from my notebooks of specific experiments I have run, but none of it will do YOU any good. If you're looking for something "plug and play" you are SOL. The batteries you use, the boost module you use, and the load you use will impact your results, as well as the voltage outputs you set on the boost modules. It's called experimenting. Ask Wantomake how long it took him to get the results he is getting now. He is using lead acid batteries.

I say this based on MY experience with Lead acid batteries. I have NO IDEA if this holds true with lithium because until this week I have never used lithium batteries. You're asking me to give you "load ranges" for YOUR batteries that I have never seen let alone experimented with. Not only have I not experimented with the size batteries you are using, but I have not experimented with lithium batteries AT ALL until last week.

I gave a general place to start with boost module voltages on bro's thread, and that was for a 20 or 30 watt load.

I just saw that my one battery setup will NOT self run and support a 30 watt load because the BMS kicked off after two hours. I was actually standing there when it kicked off. I was just about to disconnect the load so I could measure the battery voltage unloaded. When it died, the meter wouldn't read any voltage, so I put the charger on for about 30 seconds and it read 12.2. Charging it now. I ran this same load for 90 minutes this morning and when I put the battery charger on the battery it said the battery was FULL. Just for fun, I am going to recharge the battery and hook up 30 watts of load directly to the battery and see how long it runs before the bms shuts it off.

The boost modules I am using are below. As you can see from this screen shot of my orders page, that DROK boost module is no longer available.

[bistander]

Why bother to run the tests? You don't believe this works anyway.

My "claim" is that running loads this way you will see extended run times from your batteries. Period. That's all I ever claimed with the 3 Battery System, and it has not changed. Will it run continuously by using boost modules correctly as the load? It wouldn't with Lead Acid batteries, but I have no idea what will happen with lithium.

I have all KINDS of data from my notebooks of specific experiments I have run, but none of it will do YOU any good. If you're looking for something "plug and play" you are SOL. The batteries you use, the boost module you use, and the load you use will impact your results, as well as the voltage outputs you set on the boost modules. It's called experimenting. Ask Wantomake how long it took him to get the results he is getting now. He is using lead acid batteries.

I say this based on MY experience with Lead acid batteries. I have NO IDEA if this holds true with lithium because until this week I have never used lithium batteries. You're asking me to give you "load ranges" for YOUR batteries that I have never seen let alone experimented with. Not only have I not experimented with the size batteries you are using, but I have not experimented with lithium batteries AT ALL until last week.

I gave a general place to start with boost module voltages on bro's thread, and that was for a 20 or 30 watt load.

I just saw that my one battery setup will NOT self run and support a 30 watt load because the BMS kicked off after two hours. I was actually standing there when it kicked off. I was just about to disconnect the load so I could measure the battery voltage unloaded. When it died, the meter wouldn't read any voltage, so I put the charger on for about 30 seconds and it read 12.2. Charging it now. I ran this same load for 90 minutes this morning and when I put the battery charger on the battery it said the battery was FULL. Just for fun, I am going to recharge the battery and hook up 30 watts of load directly to the battery and see how long it runs before the bms shuts it off.

The boost modules I am using are below. As you can see from this screen shot of my orders page, that DROK boost module is no longer available.

Thanks for the link. I should be able to get something comparable.

As to "Why bother...?", just to prove you wrong. I know what results will be. It is simple.

So you have "all KINDS of data from my notebooks", but no evidence of "extended run times from your batteries"? Just another false claim like with that generator.

You mentioned wantomake's set-up. I have seen no evidence of anything from his posts indicating anything out-of-the-ordinary. Perhaps you can point that out specifically.

I'm curious. Which Lithium battery are you using? And which charger? There are so many available at reasonable cost.
bi

[Turion]

Here are the batteries and the battery charger that I purchased from Amazon. I just purchased three more batteries today, which will give me 9 total. Battery Charger.png Current BAtteries.png

[bistander]

Thanks.....
bi
automotive-replacement-batteries-accessories_p1925_i7.jpg

[bistander]

Just saving this post over here.

Yeah,
You should listen to someone who knows what they are doing and that's obviously not ME. I guess I wasn't thinking when I drew that schematic. Here is what I am ACTUALLY running. Instead of a second boost I am running a DC to DC converter, which acts much the same, but is more efficient. And I have a cap across the input. It probably isn't necessary, but that DC to DC is like $130 rather than $30, so I take no chances. I am changing the picture on the previous post to the correct one. The main ISSUE is which side of the diode the LOAD is on. It changes the relationship between potential differences. No wonder bistander asked if I had ever run that circuit before.

image_24897.jpg

edit:
If the DC to DC converter is isolated, does not the negative output need to be connected to the load?

[Turion]

Glad I have you to find all my mistakes. If you are running just boost modules it will run as shown. And that's all I would encourage any of the folks here to spend money on. When running an ISOLATED DC to DC converter the ground DOES have to be attached, as you point out, but not to the load. It is connected to the ground on the battery.

It is like the OUTPUT of the DC to DC converter replaces the two batteries in series in the 3 battery setup. It is a separate energy source. So the ground of it goes to the ground of the 3rd battery. (In this case, the ground of the only battery we have to establish the dipole) and the load runs between the high potential positive (of the DC to DC converter output) and the low potential positive of the 12V battery. Everything possible runs on potential difference so SOME of the energy can be recovered.

[Matthew Jones]

Look at both those circuits. In both cases you have to pull Double the amount of power to run the load and recover half of what's left. Now do the math. Then do the math with efficiency of the components and the battery which cannot be charged while discharging. The simple answer is you have done nothing. Ya you could added buck converter like wanttomake talks about and is strangely not included in the drawings, but the buck will collapse (look it up, Buck Collapse). Non of this is anything.

[Turion]

Not true. It's not COP>1, but it does teach the principles. Just like I said it did. And that's about ALL it does. Now if we REALLY wanted efficiency we would pulse the primary side of a transformer with DC on a 3 battery setup to mimic AC, recover SOME in the charge battery, and have the output of the secondary. Maybe something like this old circuit I was using a while back. You can find it on YouTube. The input voltage wasn't near what I wanted so someone redesigned it for me. A LOT depends on the transformer you use.

And just how efficient IS a push pull converter?

[Matthew Jones]

Teach the principles of what ,David? This might look real neat but it is a flat out waste of power. And I am talking about the hand drawn circuits you have posted above. Look at the first one with 2 boost.
Power comes out battery let say 100 watt, goes through the primary boost (at 90% eff.) Now you have 90 watts. Then you go through the second boost no matter if it isolated or straight (90%) Now you have 81 watts going to your load. The load strips the voltage and now you factor watts left in current at battery voltage. But lets just call it 1/2 of 81 watts, 40.5watts.

If the second boost converter is isolated you loose half of what is input minus off time in the duty cycle. So essential 90 watts going in if your lucky 30 coming out. So now your total is 70.5 watt going to the battery, and this is if your lucky. I haven't seen anything that good. And now you use that power to try to charge a battery that is discharging so you are looking at like 40% (28.2 watts) recovery, and at some point you got a hotspot, probably the plates of your battery or in the protection circuit. You can confirm the the Hotspot loss with a clock. A battery contains so much power and that is it, especially a lithium with protection.
But look at what we started with and what we end up with 100 watts in, 28.2 recovered and loss of 71.8 watts. You are burning more power than you would if you just ran the load.
You can try to argue with me, You can film a correct test and prove to everyone I don't know what I am talking about. But you won't you have never really tested anything. You just pass out other peoples info and endorse it like its your own.

These circuits as drawn are bull****. There is no one on this board who knows better than me. Go ahead prove me wrong, do some work for change.

[Turion]

What principles do they show?
That a load will run between the positives.
That SOME of what is put through the load can be recovered (Even YOU state 28.2 watts recovered with what you say is crap)
That what is put through the primary side CAN BE independent of what is collected on the secondary side on TWO SEPARATE electrical circuits. What comes out the secondary is a RESULT of what is put THROUGH the primary (and can be collected) but is NOT PART of what is put through the primary.
You say here that only 28.2 watts out of 100 is recovered because of the inefficiency of what is shown. How much CAN BE recovered?
And YES, i is better to run this with a 3 battery system than with a single battery. Never said otherwise.

I agree that a boost or even a DC to DC converter is not the way to go. I haven't thought that in quite some time. Going through the primary of either of those is inefficient. That's why I brought up the transformer when you decided to come on here and attack me. But you ignored that, didn't you? Wonder why? And WHAT would be the most efficient way to pulse the primary side of a transformer and collect the power put THROUGH the Primary like with a 3 battery system?

But learning how to do this is a process. YES, I agree, there is nothing exciting here. Recovering 28.2 watts to reuse out of 100 is a little better than 25% extra to contribute to extended run time. Which is ALL I've said these circuits will do. And I AM doing work on my own. I am working with an EE and he is building circuit boards for me in order to power the primary side of a transformer. Fun times.

By the way, where is YOUR circuit to incorporate all these principles and have it work. Not sharing? LOL

[Matthew Jones]

Ya I noticed how this answer came with no testing results, oh and you poor attacked little baby, maybe you should cry at the dinner table to your wife. Your full of s**t David. You take what other people have developed and you endorse it like its your own, even to a fault. Not knowing what your doing. You moron!! You do nothing yet your somehow owed the right to trash other peoples work. Like the magnetic offset, it wasn't yours and you somehow failed to make it work. And this thing that loosely sells out everything I told you. Why? Why not wait on the check. Its coming I planned for it. I keep my word. but No... got to look like a big shot for Bowel Movement. Got to tell stories about notebooks and immense testing with groups of people supporting you with there work.
Give it up.
Stop running your F***ing mouth. Everything you present is just fairy tale. You do not do the work to make it reality or find ends. Everyone see's it. It fuc**n shameful.

And No David I am not sharing. Its never done any good. You have proven that hands down.

[Turion]

Can't WAIT to see the check! LOL

[bistander]

Hi Turion,
any progress on your generator rebuild by your buddies in the city?
bi

[BroMikey]

Hi Turion,
any progress on your generator rebuild by your buddies in the city?
bi

Let me clue you in .........

TEN days until we get the two versions of the generator back from the machinist, (The old clunker with new shaft and bearings, and the new one with whatever modifications they figured out to eliminate the noise.)

...........................................