The bistander thread

[BroMikey]

HUH?yeah but that is a lot of good data handed to me for free. Spoon fed is yumming. See your statement below

I think the issue is PROBABLY that the opposition magnets on the new machine are 3/4x 3/4 magnets, and the opposition on the old machine are the same diameter, but only 1/4" thick. I3/4" thick is probably just TOO much magnetic field close to the coils. That's why they are taking ALL the opposition magnets out of the NEW machine. Then we will try it with the 10 magnet rotor. If that is successful, we will also try it with the 20 magnet rotor. If that is successful, we will try it with the 24 magnet rotor we started with. If they ALL work, we just adjust the size of the opposition magnets. Sooner or later we will figure it out The old machine kicks ass with the new rotor mount, and new bearings, but the adjustment of the opposition magnets still suck. They could be replaced, and we will certainly do that because it will give us two working machines.

So you got it right there, looped and 4 free sets of coil output, let's see 500 watts plus? Free energy at last. Cept she may bog some with more coils. I don't know about the rest but this is good.

The only really good news for me is that the output from two coils ran the 120 V Pacific Scientific motor at over 2900 rpm unloaded.

[bistander]

Re GENERATOR

Here is the data they provided me this morning.
Both coils wrapped with three strands of 1,000 feet of # 23
Old coils 5.4 ohms resistance
New Coils 7.1 ohms resistance??? This doesn't sound right to me, but that's what they said Since old coils and new coils were both wrapped with the same size of wire and length of wire, shouldn't the resistance be the same, even though the core material is different?

The same two coils or "coil pair" were tested on both machines. These are the NEW coils
Open voltage on old machine 302V
138V under load across a 100 W light bulb

New coil open voltage on new machine 170V
74V under load across 100 W light bulb

Thanks.
Re. Generator

#23 AWG copper wire at 20°C has 20.36 Ohms per 1000ft. Three strands of 1000ft each in parallel gives 6.79 Ohms per coil. For DC measurements, shape of the wire form doesn't matter.

Is the measured 7.1 Ohms for one coil?
Is a coil pair two coils connected in series with each other, or parallel?
Is the voltage measurement for the coil pair?
Can we get the RPM at each voltage reading?
Since it is actually the speed used in Faraday, can you get the BC radius of the magnets? # of magnets? And flux of each of the two magnets? Air gap distance for each machine?
Both machines use N, S, N, S, .... magnetic pole orientation, right?
A frequency measurement for each machine at a noted RPM? Once this f/RPM ratio is verified, we only need RPM from then on.
What is the rated voltage for the 100, 200 & 300W bulbs?
What is the measured current draw for each bulb at rated voltage, 60Hz? VA? Watts?
Resistance changes with temperature. True for coils, and loads. One of those pistol IR thermometers would nice, for coils. For the bulbs, if you wait a short time at each test point, the filament temp should settle in. If a current measurement is taken real soon after the bulb is lit, reading could differ quite a bit from steady state. It's desirable to get stabilized data for repeatability sake.
It is really nice, actually a requirement most places, to have data records dated and initialled (person & place). Without some basic 'housekeeping', chasing discrepancies later on becomes a nightmare or impossible.
It's a good idea to check for grounds frequently. Take resistance between coil lead and core and/or frame. Should be megohms. Continuity checker on multimeter can suffice.
bi

[BroMikey]

Now that is the $50,000 dollar question, very good

Thanks.
Air gap distance for each machine?

bi

Thanks.
Re. Generator

#23 AWG copper wire at 20°C has 20.36 Ohms per 1000ft. Three strands of 1000ft each in parallel gives 6.79 Ohms per coil. For DC measurements, shape of the wire form doesn't matter.

Is the measured 7.1 Ohms for one coil?

Dude there are 3 strands, go back and do the math, zhit i'll do it for ya brb come on bi

Parallel resistance calculator https://www.omnicalculator.com/physi...allel-resistor

7, 7 and 7 = 2.3 ohms

What is the rated voltage for the 100, 200 & 300W bulbs?
What is the measured current draw for each bulb at rated voltage, 60Hz? VA? Watts?

Bi he has always targeted 120vac for the coil pair. He told us he does not have all the data. Go back and read

Thanks.

It's a good idea to check for grounds frequently. Take resistance between coil lead and core and/or frame. Should be megohms. Continuity checker on multimeter can suffice.
bi

Coils are set in plastic

[Turion]

Re: Generator data

#23 AWG copper wire at 20°C has 20.36 Ohms per 1000ft. Three strands of 1000ft each in parallel gives 6.79 Ohms per coil. For DC measurements, shape of the wire form doesn't matter.

Is the measured 7.1 Ohms for one coil?

For each coil independently

Is a coil pair two coils connected in series with each other, or parallel?

The Ends of the coil that have the same polarity magnet passing it are connected together.

Is the voltage measurement for the coil pair?

Voltage is for a coil pair, but individual voltage seems to be the same. Parallel coils, so same voltage.

Can we get the RPM at each voltage reading?

2840 rpm when all measurements were taken. On both machines, so there is a frequency difference here as one machine has 10 magnets (Black machine) and the other has 12 magnets

Since it is actually the speed used in Faraday, can you get the BC radius of the magnets?

I have no idea what BC radius is as opposed to radius. They are 1" diameter magnets, so the radius 1/2". but does BC radius have something to do with the flux field or some other issue?

# of magnets?

12 on one machine and 10 on the other.

And flux of each of the two magnets?

https://www.magnet4less.com/neodymiu...trong-cylinder Br Max 14800 gauss 115 lbs pull force

Air gap distance for each machine?

WILL HAVE TO FIND OUT

Both machines use N, S, N, S, .... magnetic pole orientation, right?

Correct

A frequency measurement for each machine at a noted RPM? Once this f/RPM ratio is verified, we only need RPM from then on.

Since there are 10 magnets on one rotor and it is turning at 2840 rpm I assumed the frequency was 2840 x 10 or 28,400 and the frequency of the other rotor was 2840 x 12 = 34,080. If it is something ELSE you are asking about, I have no idea what it is or how to measure it.

What is the rated voltage for the 100, 200 & 300W bulbs?

110V

What is the measured current draw for each bulb at rated voltage, 60Hz? VA? Watts?

WILL HAVE TO FIND OUT

Resistance changes with temperature. True for coils, and loads. One of those pistol IR thermometers would nice, for coils. For the bulbs, if you wait a short time at each test point, the filament temp should settle in. If a current measurement is taken real soon after the bulb is lit, reading could differ quite a bit from steady state. It's desirable to get stabilized data for repeatability sake.
It is really nice, actually a requirement most places, to have data records dated and initialled (person & place). Without some basic 'housekeeping', chasing discrepancies later on becomes a nightmare or impossible.
It's a good idea to check for grounds frequently. Take resistance between coil lead and core and/or frame. Should be megohms. Continuity checker on multimeter can suffice.
bi

Got it. Will see if I can get them to collect the missing data. I may have to make a trip to the city, and right now that is impossible. My 87 year old mom drove herself to the emergency room last night and didn't call me until 2:30 AM, so am dealing with that and my crazy dog. Lots of sleepless nights, and no time during the day.

[BroMikey]

To reach frequency we need to remember that rpm is a per minute and frequency is per second. So divide by 60. 2840x10=28,400 divided by 60= 473 cps (cycles per second) not (child protective service)

hz is cps

[bistander]

Re. Generator

Turion,
BC = Bolt Circle. Used on engineering drawings to specify the location of the centers of features in symmetrical circular patterns such as lug nuts on a wheel.

As far as frequency vs RPM, there has been a factor of 2 between your (you & other guy) calculation and mine originating from use of # of poles vs # of pole pairs. I have requested a measured frequency from you several times to clarify this. Many multimeters display this data when reading AC voltage. Also available on a scope. Once clarified, RPM will suffice.

60 Hz data on the bulbs is easily obtained using the killawatt meter. This is a needed base point. The impedance of the bulbs vary with frequency.

As far as magnet flux, I was hoping you could measure with the gaussmeter. Do it the same way for each of the magnet types (size and material).

Thanks.
bi
ps. Grounds and plastic bobbins. You'd be surprised at what can happen in places hidden from view. Doesn't hurt to take 5 seconds to check.

[Turion]

Re: GENERATOR

Re. Generator

60 Hz data on the bulbs is easily obtained using the killawatt meter. This is a needed base point. The impedance of the bulbs vary with frequency.

I thought you were asking for amp draw of the bulb while connected to the generator. If you want it while connected to the wall, I can definitely do that with a killowatt meter. Or they can. They have one.

There is an inch of plastic around all of the coils' They sit in a hole drilled through solid plastic of the stator. So no "hidden" connections possible, but I will have them check anyway.

I can't get a gauss measurement, since they are 90 minutes away, and they do not have a gauss meter. I have one, but I have been unimpressed with the gauss measurements I have taken in the past. It seems I never get close to the same reading twice in a row.

Regarding frequency. You asked before for the distance between the center of the rotor and the center of the magnet. I gave you that information. Now you ask for the same information in a different way "BC radius." It is still 4 1/4" The guys do not have a scope or a meter that will give me the frequency. I have no way, until I travel to Sacramento, of getting any other data. They don't have the meters or a scope.

[bistander]

Try a gaussmeter app for smart phone.
bi

[Turion]

Re: GENERATOR
I got the gaussmeter app.

The guys have been doing all kinds of testing but they are driving me crazy with their reported results. One day they are running the Pac Sci 120V. DC motor off a coil pair. The next day it won't run. They tell me they are getting over 300V open voltage, but then 130V across the load and a day later only 75V across a 100 watt load. Then they tell me they are getting 2.5 amps and blew out a 300 watt bulb that lit up the room like the sun, right before going nova at only 1700 rpm. They were ALSO able to get speed up under load with the 300 watt bulb and a 1 microfarad cap in series with the coil at 1700 RPM. It goes up about 8 rpm. With a 2 microfarad cap it goes up about 300 rpm. The coils they are using are 3 strands of #23 wound in parallel and connected in parallel, so NOT Tesla style. I don't need Tesla style coils to get what I want out of this machine. And I don't know if that was on the OLD machine or the new one. Communication errors.

BUT, it looks like if I want any real test results I am going to have to go there and spend a day. I don't know how to make that happen with my dog situation, so I am giving it a few more days to see what they come up with. I think THEY are as frustrated as I am. I only have about an hour a day to work on anything, between trying to sleep and caring for this dog. It's worse than a newborn.

[bistander]

Re: Generator, and tests in general

When I was in industry, and academia, learned perhaps the most important part of testing is the procedure. Needs to be written, followed and repeated. Then comes accurate instruments, data collection and documentation. Watching a spinning wheel in the basement with flashing lights and sparks doesn't count for much. Appears you need some discipline there. I thought you had a real lab lined up.
bi

[Turion]

I do have a real lab lined up for independent testing. Quanta labs in Santa Clara. 3199 De La Cruz Blvd.
Santa Clara, CA 95054
http://www.quantalabs.com/
They are less than a block from my old machinist's place at 367 Laurelwood Rd Santa Clara, He did tons of fabrication work for them before he had that stroke and went out of business, so I got to know the owner. They have several electrical engineers on staff, and they have tested the machine before. But first I need to make sure everything is working correctly. The power on the new machine is still out of whack compared to the old machine. Testing something that isn't completely put together and working is a waste of everyone's time. I want a running 12 coil machine when I take it in there. Not a two coil machine that works on Mondays but not Tuesdays. It's too expensive for that nonsense.

[Turion]

Re: GENERATOR
I heard from the guys this morning. They think they have everything figured out. Currently running 6 of the 300 watt bulbs on the generator output, and all are lit up to what they said is full bright. I have asked for volts and amps output info. I am going down on Sunday to take my OWN measurements, as I am the one who will be footing the bill for the independent lab testing, but if all goes well on Sunday, we should be scheduling that for as soon as possible. As long as the output is sufficiently more than the input, I'm going to submit it for testing. The "tweaking" can come later to get max power output. Just want to be DONE with this so I can move on.

This is all on the OLD machine that had a replacement shaft put in and new bearings, so we KNOW that the opposition magnets cannot be all properly adjusted. But now we can set the old machine aside and figure out what is screwing up the NEW one. Because the outputs with the exact same coils are significantly less on the new machine, even with MORE magnets on the rotor.

[bistander]

Re: Generator

Cool. Please take along your killawatt meter and measure the V, Amps, frequency, power factor, watts, VA of a bulb when it's running from the generator at the rated RPM. Then also use the killawatt meter running the 6 bulbs at rated RPM measuring input from the AC outlet powering the drive motor.

It'd be best to have 2 meters to use simultaneously.
Good luck.
bi

[BroMikey]

Currently running 6 of the 300 watt bulbs on the generator..... full bright.

Just want to be DONE with this so I can move on.

we KNOW that the opposition magnets cannot be all properly adjusted.

humm.. why won't the opposition magnets work? Call it good enough? sound like you better plug some holes every other one like you did to the main rotor magnets. Or was that done at the same time? The space between unshielded magnets become critical at some point.

However this good news is something because magically for no reason it works. It is good news, oh and buy those young guys a cooler full of good beer, not that cheap stuff it sure is nice having help from the younger guys full of sass

300w x 6 is a tonne of power and no heat? that is awesome

[Turion]

The opposition magnets on the OLD machine cannot be adjusted precisely, which is why I had a NEW machine built. I have said this many times. You can adjust them, but they don't stay in adjustment. I made the mistake of using SQUARE magnets, because that was what I had. They slid down a square plastic tube, which is also what I had. The problem is, the mechanism between the magnet and the adjustable push rod had a tiny bit of play in it that allows the magnet to move back and forth. Over time, this back and forth movement increased as things got worn. 1/16" is the difference between perfect balance, and imperfect balance. You simply CANNOT make precision adjustments when you have that kind of play. And it may not be much, but there are 12 of them, so multiply that error by 12 and it becomes significant. But the machine is running. MOST of the magnetic attraction is neutralized. Enough so the output is much greater than the input and it can be tested.

And it didn't just "magically" work. We tried all kinds of things to try and understand what was going on with the output from the coils with different loads and at different speeds, and finally came to an understanding of what was going on and what we needed to do. Once we DID that, everything became stable and everything worked. If it is still working on Sunday, I think we have it solved. So far, it has been running since 8:30 this morning, so a little over 12 hours, and all is well. Doesn't mean it will run forever, or won't break down tomorrow, but at least we now know what the problem is, and it won't trouble us again.

The NEW mechanism to adjust the opposition magnets is simply a round magnet moving down a round tube. The magnet is mounted on the end of a threaded rod that screws in and out, so NO play at all. Round magnets can be rotated as they move in and out without causing any grief. Simple and precise.

I believe my problem with the NEW machine is that these opposition magnets are 3x thicker than the ones on the old machine, and need to be replaced with thinner magnets. I think they are interfering with the production of the coils. We will see.