O2 Sensor modification using spark plug non-foulers

[ART]

still tinkering all

had to put up an 8 by 14 shed in the yard havnt got to the 99 buick with the anti foulers yet ...however thought id post and update on the xcelplus/luberlon eng treatment/boosters ref my 72 ford pu 3/4 ton v390 got in a good run today in the high desert 20% city 80% hiway started with exactly 3/4 of a tank of gas 120 mile round trip used a hair over 1/4 tank gauge currently reading 1/2 tank not exceeding 50/55 mph its a 19 gallon seat tank ..note constant windy conditions 30/40 mph allways determental to good gas milage...gauges are pretty accurate ..this is my second ford v390 so i am familar with there usual max of 12 mpg...allowing for a little overkill error i used 6 gallons of gas each 1/4 tank= 4.75 gal that came out to 20 mpg + i truly belive minus wind and keeping a light foot it will get 25 mpg only modifications are original ford manif and ford 4 barrel off pass car pre 70 ...petronics instead of points ..30,000 v coil ..2 5 plate hydrogen boosters ,K and N full size air cleaner and xcelplus/luberon eng treatment using only 87 octane union 76 it impressed me but im afraid to tell anybody they might call me a liar but its for real ...in addition my sons 3 cyl 91 geo metro report oil change added xcelplus/luberlon he has run it a couple weeks noticed increased hp and milage new they got 55 mpg from what hes telling me hes geting about 58 w/5 speed std trans he said on hills where he had to downshift to third he now pulls it in 4 th gear... thats it for now i will get to the buick asap art

[ghahai ghato]

sensors... and more sensors...

Hi all... I'm very new here...

I started to run my Renault Clio 2005 with a Water Injection about a year ago and it gave me a slight improvement on FC.
Recently built a HHO gen and still trying to get it to help FC improvement.
Still waiting for the non-foulers to be machined as my O2 sensors are of a different size.
From what I've seen, my engine is monitored by several other sensors; MAP, MAF etc...
and from what I've read, these sensors will also need to be dealt with if I want to see some significant FC improvement.
Thus, I'm not surprise if my O2 mod won't work. (Still hoping for the best...)

That leaves me no choice but to get a piggy-back programmable ECU to overide all my stock settings, and I know this is really gonna work but comes at a price...

I've learned a lot here and thanks for all the useful info...

[Redmeanie]

Hi all... I'm very new here...

I started to run my Renault Clio 2005 with a Water Injection about a year ago and it gave me a slight improvement on FC.
Recently built a HHO gen and still trying to get it to help FC improvement.
Still waiting for the non-foulers to be machined as my O2 sensors are of a different size.
From what I've seen, my engine is monitored by several other sensors; MAP, MAF etc...
and from what I've read, these sensors will also need to be dealt with if I want to see some significant FC improvement.
Thus, I'm not surprise if my O2 mod won't work. (Still hoping for the best...)

That leaves me no choice but to get a piggy-back programmable ECU to overide all my stock settings, and I know this is really gonna work but comes at a price...

I've learned a lot here and thanks for all the useful info...

All you need to do is an EFIE device on your Pre Cat O2 Sensors. I will be posting a Circuit that anyone can build so you wont have to buy them at about $50 a piece, they can be made for about $15 each.

The reasoning on just modifying the O2 sensors is that they are the sensors used during "Closed Loop" ECU functioning. The MAF sensor is used during "Open Loop" mode so what happens if you mess with these sensors is your ECU will always stay in open loop mode where the ecu shoots "Rich" then "Lean" to hit a Target A/F Ratio and never goes into closed loop which is where your ECU is functioning at the Best A/F Ratio at all times.
This happens in Order, when your car first starts it's in open loop until it figures the required info from all the sensors needed in open loop, i.e Temp, Altitude, and even some vehicles measure the Fuel combustion (octane) to calculate timing and pulse rate of the injectors. Once that has all been done the ECU will go into "Closed Loop" which then basically is adjusting A/F ratio's off of the O2 sensors.

So what the EFIE device does is takes the incoming (True) signal from the O2 Sensor and add's or subtracts minuscule amounts of voltage to that signal and feeds it back to the ECU so it always thinks it is running at the Factory set target. This is done during closed loop so it never reverts back to the Open Loop State because it always sees the "Correct" A/F Ratio.

Allot of devices operate by manipulating the MAF sensor Signal Also, But these are generally used in Performance Applications where they are wanting "More" fuel and are not concerned with accurate "Open Loop" sensor readings. But in our case I would not want to mess with the "Open Loop" sensors because if we do it will be counter productive in the long run when the O2 sensor reading is all we need to change. Think about it would you want the ECU changing Timing and Injector pulse rates based off of a modified signal? Also your ecu would never go into "Closed Loop" so your gains would be minimal. Only time I would even consider altering the MAF sensor signal would be If the Vehicle I was working on had a Wide Band O2 sensor and was forced not to use the EFIE Device. Then I would only expect maybe a 10% to 15% gain in Fuel Economy Also.

Hope That Helps!

[ghahai ghato]

EFIE device circuit...

Wow.... that's super!!!

Looking forward to the circuit diagram... thanx Redmeanie...
Anyway, the piggy-back ECU cost around 250usd over here.

[ANTIQUER]

All you need to do is an EFIE device on your Pre Cat O2 Sensors. I will be posting a Circuit that anyone can build so you wont have to buy them at about $50 a piece, they can be made for about $15 each.

The reasoning on just modifying the O2 sensors is that they are the sensors used during "Closed Loop" ECU functioning. The MAF sensor is used during "Open Loop" mode so what happens if you mess with these sensors is your ECU will always stay in open loop mode where the ecu shoots "Rich" then "Lean" to hit a Target A/F Ratio and never goes into closed loop which is where your ECU is functioning at the Best A/F Ratio at all times.
This happens in Order, when your car first starts it's in open loop until it figures the required info from all the sensors needed in open loop, i.e Temp, Altitude, and even some vehicles measure the Fuel combustion (octane) to calculate timing and pulse rate of the injectors. Once that has all been done the ECU will go into "Closed Loop" which then basically is adjusting A/F ratio's off of the O2 sensors.

So what the EFIE device does is takes the incoming (True) signal from the O2 Sensor and add's or subtracts minuscule amounts of voltage to that signal and feeds it back to the ECU so it always thinks it is running at the Factory set target. This is done during closed loop so it never reverts back to the Open Loop State because it always sees the "Correct" A/F Ratio.

Allot of devices operate by manipulating the MAF sensor Signal Also, But these are generally used in Performance Applications where they are wanting "More" fuel and are not concerned with accurate "Open Loop" sensor readings. But in our case I would not want to mess with the "Open Loop" sensors because if we do it will be counter productive in the long run when the O2 sensor reading is all we need to change. Think about it would you want the ECU changing Timing and Injector pulse rates based off of a modified signal? Also your ecu would never go into "Closed Loop" so your gains would be minimal. Only time I would even consider altering the MAF sensor signal would be If the Vehicle I was working on had a Wide Band O2 sensor and was forced not to use the EFIE Device. Then I would only expect maybe a 10% to 15% gain in Fuel Economy Also.

Hope That Helps!

Way to go RedMeanie!!!! That's the best explanation of how these controls work that I have seen. I hope everyone woking on an HHO unit reads it. Please post that circuit ASAP. I already have it but I don't remember where I found it posted & it is vital to most of these systems.

[ANTIQUER]

All you need to do is an EFIE device on your Pre Cat O2 Sensors. I will be posting a Circuit that anyone can build so you wont have to buy them at about $50 a piece, they can be made for about $15 each.

The reasoning on just modifying the O2 sensors is that they are the sensors used during "Closed Loop" ECU functioning. The MAF sensor is used during "Open Loop" mode so what happens if you mess with these sensors is your ECU will always stay in open loop mode where the ecu shoots "Rich" then "Lean" to hit a Target A/F Ratio and never goes into closed loop which is where your ECU is functioning at the Best A/F Ratio at all times.
This happens in Order, when your car first starts it's in open loop until it figures the required info from all the sensors needed in open loop, i.e Temp, Altitude, and even some vehicles measure the Fuel combustion (octane) to calculate timing and pulse rate of the injectors. Once that has all been done the ECU will go into "Closed Loop" which then basically is adjusting A/F ratio's off of the O2 sensors.

So what the EFIE device does is takes the incoming (True) signal from the O2 Sensor and add's or subtracts minuscule amounts of voltage to that signal and feeds it back to the ECU so it always thinks it is running at the Factory set target. This is done during closed loop so it never reverts back to the Open Loop State because it always sees the "Correct" A/F Ratio.

Allot of devices operate by manipulating the MAF sensor Signal Also, But these are generally used in Performance Applications where they are wanting "More" fuel and are not concerned with accurate "Open Loop" sensor readings. But in our case I would not want to mess with the "Open Loop" sensors because if we do it will be counter productive in the long run when the O2 sensor reading is all we need to change. Think about it would you want the ECU changing Timing and Injector pulse rates based off of a modified signal? Also your ecu would never go into "Closed Loop" so your gains would be minimal. Only time I would even consider altering the MAF sensor signal would be If the Vehicle I was working on had a Wide Band O2 sensor and was forced not to use the EFIE Device. Then I would only expect maybe a 10% to 15% gain in Fuel Economy Also.

Hope That Helps!

I found that posting . My brother had e-mailed it to me. Bettermileage.com/memberadx.html. Gives parts list(Radio Shack stuff) schematics,instructions on how to build, test,& install it.

[Redmeanie]

Circuit....

If you want it PM me and I will email it to you.....It is a corrected version of the one in the "Free Energy" PDF....That one had some critical errors in it..... I would post it here but the last time I posted a design on a forum it ended up being sold on eBay and since Im giving it away free, I will not tolerate someone selling it to people and profiting when our whole goal here is the Free "Sharing" of info to better our environment and help each other out.....
So just PM me your email and I will send it to you.....

Our if there is enough demand I will watermark it and post it in the members only forum here....

[Redmeanie]

Circuit Design....

I have posted this in the member only "Energy" sub forum.....

[XchazX]

Brand new here, and have a question bout O2 mods

Hello all! I got a couple questions, but first I need to explain what I know before I ask it.

Ok... I was told that if you simply wrap Aluminum foil around the exposed part of the O2 sensor and layered it several times that it would help keep in the heat since using an H2 +O Generator would allow for cooler engine temps, thus making the O2 sensors allow for a rich mix. Of course, we don't want that.

Q1:Would the aluminum foil wrapping of the o2 sensors work for a car that has a MAF sensor? (specifically a 2001 Ford Focus SE)

Also, I understand that when installing an HHO Generator that the HHO Out part of the vacuum hose goes into the air intake before the MAF sensor.

Q2: Couldn't you just drill a hole for the HHO intake AFTER the MAF sensor- as in the air filter box cover?

I'm new to the Energetic Forum, so if this has been answered or if I'm asking stupid questions please give me a mulligan. I'm a newbie.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can give an answer to any or both questions!

[Redmeanie]

Nope....

Hello all! I got a couple questions, but first I need to explain what I know before I ask it.

Ok... I was told that if you simply wrap Aluminum foil around the exposed part of the O2 sensor and layered it several times that it would help keep in the heat since using an H2 +O Generator would allow for cooler engine temps, thus making the O2 sensors allow for a rich mix. Of course, we don't want that.

Q1:Would the aluminum foil wrapping of the o2 sensors work for a car that has a MAF sensor? (specifically a 2001 Ford Focus SE)

Also, I understand that when installing an HHO Generator that the HHO Out part of the vacuum hose goes into the air intake before the MAF sensor.

Q2: Couldn't you just drill a hole for the HHO intake AFTER the MAF sensor- as in the air filter box cover?

I'm new to the Energetic Forum, so if this has been answered or if I'm asking stupid questions please give me a mulligan. I'm a newbie.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can give an answer to any or both questions!

Dont even attempt to warap the O2 sensors....Thats the first time I have heard that one! O2 sensors operation is far more intricate than what can be manipulated with Foil. Think about it exhaust is Hot and it would take about 2 minutes for the foil to be saturated with heat....Then it may hold some of the heat in and prevent the O2 sensor from functioning properly....You want the O2 sensor to still function properly we just want to SLIGHTLY modify the signal, Hence the EFIE Device....Plus it would not be pretty when all that foil comes off and clogs up your Cat Converter.....

As far as the HHO input goes you want it as "Close" to the Butterfly on your throttle body you can get...Just tap into the plastic housing right behind the Hose clamp that holds the plastic to the throttle body....

The MAF is basically a Heater Element (Hot Wires) Not exactly something you want the HHO Running Through!

Hope that helps!

[Br_549]

Circuit Design....

Thanks RedMeanie for the Circuit Design, I got it over in my computer just now.
Have you ever checked out the 3 articles "Tuning for Mileage" so I understand they were originally written by Mike Holler at Fuel Economt Tips and MPG Research. I'm thinking of trying to work on my Map and so on as time permitts after I install the EFIE's.
Again Thanks for all your input.

[ART]

red / all ref 99 buick

a little update got my booster installed after considerable jimmy jacking with the hook up ...using a 3/8 id clear hose my boosters are not truly air tight but there is enough manif vac to flex the sides not desirable so i metered it down to a 5/32 direct into the intake manif still runs runs the risk of picking up lye solution liquid instead of vapor also manually under the hood gave it several quick half throttles picked up eng stumble with vapor only supprise me....opted to hook up at tps after the air cleaner easy hook up but running a vapor smoke check it didnt appear to be picking up much ..topped the tank went for 58 mile run noticed i wasnt producing much hydrogen corrected that i was hooked on the wrong side of the resistor works fine now about 7 or 8 amps runs cool...jumping ahead my buick 3.1 is already a clean burner been checking the tail pipe when i tweek something with no or very little hydrogen tail pipe is white after i got it producing the correct amount of hydrogen i can see it start to darken up a little in only 20 miles a good sign it tells me the hydrogen is getting to the eng ...jumping ahead ive done a little research and one of the bigger hydrogen booster manufac have on the web site i think its water car recommends wrapping the exterior of the 02 sensor with renolds wrap pictures and all "the poor mans tweeker" ive heard this from several others but they say dont do it inless you have water inj or a booster or similar device to keep the combustion cooled down...so far in the short test it doesnt appear to have effected the milage much one way or the other..i will run it several days with booster on and check the tail pipe color again i expected that it would tell the comp send more fuel and that appears to be the case ....then i have the foil wrap already made with a horse shoe hold clip made fron a piece of springy stainless steel wire to hold it in place i believe the tail pipe color could be a clue to dialing it in rich fuel= dark , lean burn=white old mechanic mentality what can i say will update asap art

[ghahai ghato]

the cat and NOx

GUys....
Here's something I read over the net;

Fuel saving gadgets - a professional engineer's view
"......Unfortunately it was completely impossible to meet these limits through lean-burn technology. Lean-running engines produce less NOx at source than engines running at lambda = 1, but cannot use a three-way catalytic converter to remove the NOx. (What the catalyst does is to remove the oxygen from the NOx and give it to the HC and CO. The result is plain nitrogen, carbon dioxide and water, all of which are essentially harmless. But to work, the lambda value must be just right. If the mixture is too lean then the "spare" oxygen is given to the HC and CO, and the NOx passes through unconverted.)"

So, by running lean we are now dumping NOx into the air even with a cat?
Anyone running lean here have checked their emission for NOx results?

[Redmeanie]

GUys....
Here's something I read over the net;

Fuel saving gadgets - a professional engineer's view
"......Unfortunately it was completely impossible to meet these limits through lean-burn technology. Lean-running engines produce less NOx at source than engines running at lambda = 1, but cannot use a three-way catalytic converter to remove the NOx. (What the catalyst does is to remove the oxygen from the NOx and give it to the HC and CO. The result is plain nitrogen, carbon dioxide and water, all of which are essentially harmless. But to work, the lambda value must be just right. If the mixture is too lean then the "spare" oxygen is given to the HC and CO, and the NOx passes through unconverted.)"

So, by running lean we are now dumping NOx into the air even with a cat?
Anyone running lean here have checked their emission for NOx results?

Well for starters, we are "Not" Technically running our vehicles Lean with HHO Boosters. We are "Leaning" out the Fossil Fuel from the Ignition Process. The HHO is capable of filling that void of missing Fossil Fuels and still have energy left over.

I have a guy that does my emissions here in the Houston area and he says the exhaust from the vehicles I have helped others with is so clean that the machine actually failed the vehicle! He was so impressed with the results he now has them in his vehicle. By the way the Houston area has some of the most strict emission guidelines there are. I have to remember to cut the system off anytime I send a vehicle to be Inspected for the first time. And since he is "HHO Booster" Friendly we pass every time now!

[ghahai ghato]

Testing out the O2 extenders...

Okay, got the car Wednesday, hooked up the WIS 1st and I've got the O2 extenders in place on Thursday eve, 1 goes in front (tiny outlet) and the other (bigger outlet) behind the cat......
Not planning to fit the HHO at this moment yet...

Did some city driving Friday... car performed normally, FC still remains similar if not fractionally better at 12.0km/litre. Noticed something though; the city driving last nite was in heavy monsoon rain, normally with the WIS on the PCV hose at the airbox would be wet with water condensation but I did not notice any significant amount of it this morning... hmmmm...

I've remove the -ve terminal last nite ovenite (Kumaran's suggestion-thanx)... hoping that this would reset the ECU.

Planning to go for a highway trip tomorrow...

I already have something in mind if the mod fails to produce better FC;

1. Reopen the O2 sensors and wrap it up with foil or something but leaving just the tip exposed (there is a small sensor oulet at the tip.), that ought to reduce the sensitivity of the sensor somewhat....

2. Get the EFIE from the net... need to study more on how to get it dialed, from what I've read it's not that easy...

3. Hunt for a used piggy-back ECU.... this is costly... + I need to dyno it in, more money....

Hoping for the best.... thank for all the feedback.