O2 Sensor modification using spark plug non-foulers

[ghahai ghato]

Starting over....

Guys...
Not giving up, I'm going back to square 1 (almost) and start over...
With a recent lube change, I'm gonna start with the WIS 1st... run it for a week and then the O2 extenders and run it for more miles.... (previously, I only ran 300km on it and the FC remained the same 10.0km/l city and 16.5km/l highway)
Finally, the HHO will come in....

Q: Will the O2 extender actually extend the life of the O2 sensors, since it's away from the exhaust stream?

TQ

[Redmeanie]

For those of you who have not Joined or contacted Aaron about access to the "Energy" Sub Forum.....I have made a Combo Printed Circuit Board Available there and will be putting Kits Together If there is enough people interested.
These will "ONLY" be available to MEMBERS of this Forum.....

[TuxAir]

Guys...
Not giving up, I'm going back to square 1 (almost) and start over...
With a recent lube change, I'm gonna start with the WIS 1st... run it for a week and then the O2 extenders and run it for more miles.... (previously, I only ran 300km on it and the FC remained the same 10.0km/l city and 16.5km/l highway)
Finally, the HHO will come in....

Q: Will the O2 extender actually extend the life of the O2 sensors, since it's away from the exhaust stream?

TQ

I don't think it would unless you have an engine that has other problems causing the O2 sensors to foul up. I have always hard-timed the O2 sensors at 50,000 Miles. Never really had one fail. Comparing removed O2 sensors to the new ones showed my old ones were not really bad at all. Just a bit "off". I use a Fluke meter, ambient air and then introduce another gas such as nitrogen to change the O2 ratio to get my results.
My observations... O2 sensors can get "lazy" over time. Not so much that they would throw a CEL, but enough that fuel economy can suffer. Provided you kept your engine up properly, I think it has more to do with the heat cycles than actually standing out in the exhaust stream that makes them "lazy". Changing them at 50,000 like I have has always improved my MPG a bit (~1 - 2 MPG better). If you only have 1 pre-cat and 1 post-cat O2 sensor, change the pre-cat one leaving the post-cat one for another day. If you have 4 O2 sensors (2 pre & 2 post-cat), you should change them in pairs (both pre-cat O2 sensors together or both post-cat O2 sensors together). Otherwise, half of the engine might be running different than the other half due to one side running richer than the other side. But you need not change pre & post cat sensors at the same time. Personally, I have yet to replace post-cat O2 sensors in any of my vehicles. I'd leave them alone and save some money. Also, do yourself or the next owner a favor and use some anti-seize compound. It make life so much easier for the next time they need to come out.

[chewysdad]

Non-foulers inneffective - possible reason

Reading on other forums about O2 sensors- the ECM occillates from lean to rich causing the output from the O2 sensor to constantly fluctuate. If the ECM doesn't see this fluctuation it thinks faulty O2 sensor and goes to open mode. Welding up the hole in the end would prevent it from fluctuating and drilling a hole will probably result in it reading the exhaust as if it were installed in the normal fashion. This is my opinion. If somebody has great success with the non-foulers share the information.

[ART]

UPDATE 99 buick century 3.1

howdy all ran several test on the buick with hyg booster and external portion of the oxy sensor rapped in tin foil 10 wraps still got 25.5 mpg around town about 1 or 2 mpgs short of stock mpg ..installed 2 spark plug adpts 30 mile test run upon returning home and lifting the hood i detected a loping idle removed both adpts.....note the one adpt where i drilled it out didnt have much side clearance ...wrapped it again with tin foil about 18 wraps currently testing ....depending on results...i may go back to one adpt only and see how it preforms...poss wrap that in foil...as you can see i have plenty of spare time to kill ..when i am done i will have run the gamet and should have a definate yes or no on the adpts ..next step tweek the oxy sensor considering several inexpensive devices ...if my 2 carb vehicles are any indicator i feel 40 mpg is a realitic goal on the buick getting 30 hwy now ...will get back asap art

[HYDRO]

o2 sensor switch

Hi all,
newbe here and wondering If I had a v8 and used a v6 02 sensor wouldn't that read rich in a v8 & lean it out?? Same in a v6 >use a 4cyl o2sensor> 4 bangers are outa luck if this is a valid theory Seems to simple and someone else would have thought of it. sensors not unifiorm in size just came to mind Thanks for sharing I've learned tons here, by the way I'm in the dayton,oh area

[Tarkus]

O2 sensors 8-6-4 Cylinders

O2 sensors read a ratio not a quantity, hence most will read the same no matter the number of cylinders.

[biggs]

Ok I'm back. First off, some of you are correct and some half truths. I've been a master auto tech for 26 yrs. The 02 sensor really measures hydrocarbons. Here's why. The sensors bi metal is very sensitive to hydrocarbon fuels. The reason the 02 sensor needs to be heated is to get the reaction between the bi metals to occur and produce electricity, the new sensors have little toaster elements in them that heat them up during cold starts so they "come online" faster. They are referred to as H02 sensors, meaning heated oxygen sensors. You may put this sensor in a vacuum and heat it up and see no voltage output. Take the same sensor and heat it up with atmospheric pressure and no voltage. Take same sensor and put in pressure cooker and little to no volts output. Take the same sensor and heat it up in hydrocarbons and see the voltage spike up!
Thus, what the oil and car manufacturers have done is fool you into thinking it measures oxygen when in fact it really measures the amount of hydrocarbons (unburnt fuel) mixed in the exaust stream. The manufacturer already knows how much air is entering the engine and exiting the exaust but needs to regulate the amount of fuel, not air, into the exaust..
If you want to pump hydroxy into the engine you will increase the amount of oxygen in the exaust stream, thus to fool the computer you will need to add voltage (not resistance) to the signal that the computer is seeing.
I would suggest starting with a volt and work up. Now you will need to increase the voltage with increased hydroxy used.
Here's a simple method. Monitor the exaust sensors output at idle without the hydroxy used. Take notes of hi and low voltage. Turn your unit on and now measure. Take instant reading (don't wait too long because computer will see drop in voltage and raise the injector pulse on-time to compensate and your voltage will go back up!) Lets say you note a 1 volt difference. Simply add 1 volt to the wire while using hydroxy, this way the computer will think nothing has changed... Now do you understand?

[ghahai ghato]

Wow... that's very interesting...

Currently, I don't have any means to measure the Voltage...
Okay.. this might sound stupid but what if I add a couple drops of oil into the O2 extender and weld the tip shut...
Will that make the voltage hike up and consequently compensate the mixture with more air?

[Tarkus]

Oil in the O2 sensor???

Its my observation that the ECU and the engine need to operate in changing conditions/loads, hence taking the sensor out of the loop so to say by blocking it or giving it a static condition would work against us.

It seems to me the best course of action would be to use the EFIE or a similar device to compensate for the addition of the HHO or other fuel alternatives.

This allows for the varying conditions to be read and the ECU to vary the engine parameters.

[wpage]

I'm IN!

For those of you who have not Joined or contacted Aaron about access to the "Energy" Sub Forum.....I have made a Combo Printed Circuit Board Available there and will be putting Kits Together If there is enough people interested.
These will "ONLY" be available to MEMBERS of this Forum.....

Redmeanie
Count me in on folks interested. Have already stumbled on building the HHO generator so this would be a help. If you or any of the other Guru's here are producing these items with any success. Please PM me with details...
Thanks
W

[ghahai ghato]

Its my observation that the ECU and the engine need to operate in changing conditions/loads, hence taking the sensor out of the loop so to say by blocking it or giving it a static condition would work against us.

It seems to me the best course of action would be to use the EFIE or a similar device to compensate for the addition of the HHO or other fuel alternatives.

This allows for the varying conditions to be read and the ECU to vary the engine parameters.

I totally agree with you....

Anyway this morning I went ahead with this crazy idea....
Removed the O2 sensor and added some fine steel wool with drops of oil into the O2 extender, put 'em all back together and...
Started the engine and the idle was fine initially... a while later;
Put in gear and upon throttle the engine start to knock and no power to even shift into 2nd... hohohoho...
So i guess the engine is surely running very lean.... even with my HHO turned on...

So the O2 sensor does detect hidrocarbon not just O2....

[wpage]

Dial in voltage?

Ok I'm back. First off, some of you are correct and some half truths. I've been a master auto tech for 26 yrs. The 02 sensor really measures hydrocarbons. Here's why. The sensors bi metal is very sensitive to hydrocarbon fuels. The reason the 02 sensor needs to be heated is to get the reaction between the bi metals to occur and produce electricity, the new sensors have little toaster elements in them that heat them up during cold starts so they "come online" faster. They are referred to as H02 sensors, meaning heated oxygen sensors. You may put this sensor in a vacuum and heat it up and see no voltage output. Take the same sensor and heat it up with atmospheric pressure and no voltage. Take same sensor and put in pressure cooker and little to no volts output. Take the same sensor and heat it up in hydrocarbons and see the voltage spike up!
Thus, what the oil and car manufacturers have done is fool you into thinking it measures oxygen when in fact it really measures the amount of hydrocarbons (unburnt fuel) mixed in the exaust stream. The manufacturer already knows how much air is entering the engine and exiting the exaust but needs to regulate the amount of fuel, not air, into the exaust..
If you want to pump hydroxy into the engine you will increase the amount of oxygen in the exaust stream, thus to fool the computer you will need to add voltage (not resistance) to the signal that the computer is seeing.
I would suggest starting with a volt and work up. Now you will need to increase the voltage with increased hydroxy used.
Here's a simple method. Monitor the exaust sensors output at idle without the hydroxy used. Take notes of hi and low voltage. Turn your unit on and now measure. Take instant reading (don't wait too long because computer will see drop in voltage and raise the injector pulse on-time to compensate and your voltage will go back up!) Lets say you note a 1 volt difference. Simply add 1 volt to the wire while using hydroxy, this way the computer will think nothing has changed... Now do you understand?

This is a good explanation that would negate the co2 spacer solution.If true. What range of voltage would you need to range in to cover shift points. How sensitive is the ECU during stop and go verses highway conditions to the fuel mix as it relates to reading from sensor?

[ART]

update on no foulers /all

still tinkering have tryed about every combo related to the anti foulers on 99 buick ran 4 mpg tests currently running 2 anti foulers coupled at exh manifold both bored out to 1/2 i.d. with oxy sensor exterior wrapped in foil with and without stock air cleaner currently put the k and n filter back in millage has varried to just about stock mpg to minus 2 mpg about 50/50 city and hwy definately have better performance and slight loss in mpg .. i called a booster mfg in phonix..talked to Dan..knowledgable and helpfull..but i already had ideas before i made the call plan on getting the efi to tweek the oxy sensor about $60.00 its a must with computer managed engs also in my opineon you wont get the desired results with out the ability to monotor the results of your repair so i bought a fuel/air ratio gauge FAZE A.Z.$39.99 looks decent i figure you have to get away from that 14.7 ratio or you spnning your wheels more like 16.1 to 16.5-1 IMO... they say you should never exceed a 17.1 ratio on deceleration because its to lean and bad things will come to visit your eng will be a couple weeks till installation...i describe the dimensions of the boosters i built/with resistors (photo on this site) to Dan he said its probably putting out 3/4 of a liter he described to me how the assembled theirs today i mod mine to his spec same container diff plate alignment no resistor involved as follows n-neu-neu-neu-pos-neu-neu-neu neg added 4 plates total of 9 spaced closer with yellow hose washes appx 1/8 in. tested definately putting out more hyd more power... oops... this was all done on my carb ford maverick by the way 16 ga wire getting warm because its pumping 15 amps plus using 10 ga to rewire should bring the amps down to 15 or less in the ball park..going to vegas next weekend this should give me some exact hwy mpg figures with the current sysyem in place will get get back with more info ASAP ART

[Aaron]

o2 sensor experience after 8 months of testing

I have used the non-fouler mod on a Honda Civic since the end of last fall or beginning of last winter. It doesn't work and gas mileage dropped about 30% with that being the only modification.

I used 2 non-foulers together. More power, more gas usage, etc...

About a month ago, I put a nut/bolt in the bottom non-fouler to totally block off any exhaust. I can't see a difference yet but will know by the end of the current tank.

The idea is good and simple but I don't see results. Just negative results. Anyway, it might help people get rid of a catalytic converter, etc... but not for improving gas mileage. Perhaps it can work together with Redmeanie's type of o2 sensor mod..not sure or not needed at all.

Anyway, this is after about 8 months of testing so I really did give it a serious go. I didn't do a lot of driving, it just takes Civics forever to get through gas anyway and I don't drive a lot anyway (work from home). I went through maybe 5 tanks of gas during that time. 10 gallons each tank about. I will post the final result after the current tank is out.