Multifilar Generator Coil - Lenz delay Experiments

[SkyWatcher]

Hi all, ran some more tests today.
Moved the rotor magnet to core gap, to 1/16" and also flipped the core/coil around, so that the magnets are closer to the coil as they sweep through, because the other side has the 1" core protrusion.
It does seem to help with power production.
2 power channels, or 26 strands in series = 17.5 vac over 25 watt incandescent bulb and input watts stay the same.
1 power channel, or 13 strands in series = 47 vac over same 25 watt bulb and input watts increase.
So only getting about 1/2 watt through bulb, with 26 strands in series and input seems to stay the same.
And getting around 3.7 watts with 13 strands in series, though input increases then.

Motor cannot start without the magnet neutralization in place, it just sits there without it, so that's a more positive thing so far.
That's all for the moment.
Not sure this coil is doing it, or the rotor speed or magnet count is too low.
peace love light

[BroMikey]

Hi all, ran some more tests today.

gap, to 1/16"

Motor cannot start without the magnet neutralization in place

..................count is too low.??????????????

You are where I am. Where is that? learning to match flux or strong
magnets with the core size and type.

Test for core material.

Take a paper clip and set it on the core end right after running it for
a few minutes. If the paper clip stays on the core you have a magnet
instead of a core.

Suggestion. Take an old microwave oven (MOT) apart by grinding off
the factory welds. Taking the "E" section off of the base. The base welds
can be ground and you will get some grain oriented steel that will
measure 4" long X 7/8" then using an old knife find the number of
leafs you want for say a thickness of 7/8" and strike the back of the
knife with a hammer gently. Tap each side til your block pops off.

Or I think Turion uses buck shot forced tightly into a tube with epoxy.

I have not experimented with wire cores so I don't know. All I use is the
state of the art transformer steel. I am about to try 25awg wire but
know nothing yet. I am where you are, trying to find combinations of
core material to strong magnets to see what i can generate in the way
of power output.

Excellent to hear the magnet that is set in opposition the attraction
side at the core is working enough to get it running.

You need to find the null and you should already be seeing huge
speed up at 26 serial strands. You will need to lower the drive voltage
on your ac induction motor to see small changes.

For instance, with my 5 amp induction motor, it was so powerful at
120vac that the amps were about the same but I noticed little effects.

Or you could put a big pulley on a DC scooter motor and belt up.

[BroMikey]

Being a small unit they most likely have to use smaller wire with lots of turns to achieve a reasonable voltage level for transmission as well as making the best of the real estate available for the wire and keep the rpm's within a reasonable range for the blade design. With something that small their probably using blades that run in a TSR range of 7 to 9 which is pretty fast.

I started building 3 phase air core alternators in the late 90's. Much more efficient and very light weight. I used to have custom triangle magnets made, not for the cogging - specifically for the magnetic surface area over the round or rectangular to advantage the real estate for maximum copper. Still have a few hundred of these in a box I use for my own toys... The stators were designed for the lowest possible resistance as well as ultra low rpm operation.

Given this background I can see a few flaws in the solenoid style alternator design, I understand your reasoning for the design but with a few design tweaks you may end up in a much more efficient place.

The low Lenz design that I posted doesn't stop or lower the lenz force ( we need this for a powerful output ). What it does is divert the force away from the rotor - that is - because the magnets are stationary and the stator coils are stationary the Lenz force is diverted into the solid mount of the case. The rotor simply directs the polarity. There is still a slight force working on the rotor but most of the Lenz force is against the magnet and stator. I posted a video of the stator wound with 8 ga wire producing 28 amps in that small fan motor conversion. Even at very low rpm the current output is very high for it's size. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dordyphTKFs

In any case, I know you guys will figure it out... I'm simply a curious observer in your project.

Thicker wire and more of it. Windings set on angle.

[dragon]

Much thicker stator core also.... the 10si core on the right was also hand wound with small wire where it would normally be wound with 18 ga or larger. Most of my 100 amp units had 6 turns per coil of heavy wire but they needed 2000+ rpm to make 14 volts. Their trying to get a much higher voltage at lower rpm so their most likely using 18 to 20ga or smaller. I've hand wound hundreds of those 10si cores. Got a big basket of parts left over from those days and still have a couple complete units on the shelf.

I've designed a simplex motor using some parts out of one that I'm machining parts for in my spare time currently.

What would be interesting for you guys to test would be a simple air core coil following some simple rules. I don't know the magnets your using but I'm assuming their the standard round units. So, the coil center must be the same diameter as the magnet, the width of the coil legs should not exceed the width of the magnet - for instance the total diameter shouldn't be more than 3 x the diameter of the magnet and the magnet should drop through the center. You want to keep the thickness of the coil about the same thickness of the magnet or slightly larger - the thicker you go the less flux saturation on the rear of the coil.

Figure out how many turns you have with your current set up and try to match that with the largest wire that you have real estate for following the parameters above. This is just a simple air core coil which wouldn't take very long to make. Run the same tests your currently doing with both the coils.

Chances are you won't need as many turns per coil to achieve the same output voltage so matching the turns may be a bit higher. Since there is no iron you can close the gap for clearance only - there will be no cogging and start up will be instantaneous. Since your using only one pole - only one coil leg at a time will produce an output as the magnet passes over. This will still show an AC wave output as it passes each side of the coil. Using NSNS layout the output will be double plus as long as the NS are positioned over the coil legs.

Just a simple low cost comparison....

Edit: if this isn't clear let me know and I'll draw a diagram of the layout and coil sizes.

[dragon]

The rotor on the machine I am putting back together has 12 of the 1"x 3/4 magnet pairs (magnets stuck to each other through a tiny sliver of the rotor that didn't get machined away in the center of each of the magnet holes. The cores for the coils I am using now are 1/16 steel rod like the last several coils I have built, although I DO intend to try two ferrite core coils using the powdered ferrite mixed with epoxy to compare output and speed up under load. The coils are wound with 24 strands in parallel, each 125' long of #23 with 8 strands connected in series.

I put a REALLY weak, really SMALL ceramic magnet on the back of each coil core, so that the cores do not become magnetized. It is all about the CHANGE in flux to create electricity. I haven't experimented to see if this actually contributes to the coil output, but that would be interesting if it DID. It DOES keep the cores from getting magnetized because the rotor magnets are of the opposite polarity.

So thats how many turns on the core before you series the 8 together? And, your output voltage ( open circuit )... and your short circuit current if you have that as well... Ok, one more edit.... the resistance of the coil as it's used for the output ( 8 in series I'm assuming ).

[BroMikey]

So thats how many turns on the core before you series the 8 together? And, your output voltage ( open circuit )... and your short circuit current if you have that as well... Ok, one more edit.... the resistance of the coil as it's used for the output ( 8 in series I'm assuming ).

Thanks dragon for bringing me up to speed on your past winding schemes.
Very interesting stuff indeed.

Dave uses a 1" core and winds 24 strands in parallel onto it, some call
litzed coils. Now with 24 wires going in and 24 wires going out he takes
sets of 8 and this means he has 3 sets of 8. 3 X 8 = 24.

8 wires or coils are wired up one after another or in series. Since each
wire going in and out on his coil is 125" a piece he get 8 X 125 = 1000'
This is Dave's favorite number of feet for his design that does not speed
up nor slow down (more importantly) the rotor thus no affect on drive
input.

Since Dave has 3 sets of 8 coils he wires up in series whatever he gets
out of one set of coils can be multiplied by 3X. The max rating for 23AWG
wire when used as coils is I believe 700ma Dave stops at 500ma and
having 3 channels or 3 sets of 8 coils he winds in series gives Dave
a 1.5 amp or 1500ma output for a complete coil in his set up. 12 of
these in total are used to decorate his little black box.

I don't know anything about core material other than electrical steel
except for what Dave said he tried. Dave's core rods work tho seem to
be suffering some saturation effects long term.

Do you understand why I am using a "C" core? Do you? You need to
think about it. The "C" core (Not the material the shape) geometry
is subject to both NORTH and SOUTH at the same time coming off
the magnet. At TDC (Top Dead Center) the electrical winding magnetic
energy having a certain polarity, reverses and both ends
(Not just one end) of the "C" do a toggle . Flux goes back and forth or
flux is traded back and forth almost a form of recycling.

[dragon]

Thanks Turion, looking forward for the details

Mikey, thanks for the info. I'm looking for the total turns of the bundle wound on the core so I can ascertain the total turns once its wired in series. Also the open voltage, short circuit current, at what rpm and resistance of the coil ( maybe a resistance reading on one length of wire - the rest could be calculated ). I do understand the C core approach, very similar to a basic magneto alternator. Remember though, to much iron is much better than not enough when it comes to forming magnetic paths.

[BroMikey]

Thanks Turion, looking forward for the details

Mikey, thanks for the info. I'm looking for the total turns of the bundle wound on the core so I can ascertain the total turns

1" core and about a 6" length for 125'? Easy to calculate

[dragon]

Ok, so around 280 turns with approx 6 layers.... 3.2 ohm ea for each wire ( .135 ohm all in parallel - this looks nicer for efficiency ) ... 25+ ohms with 2240 turns total per series of 8.

Just need open circuit voltage and short circuit current at running rpm....

[BroMikey]

Ok, so around 280 turns with approx 6 layers.... 3.2 ohm ea for each wire ( .135 ohm all in parallel - this looks nicer for efficiency ) ... 25+ ohms with 2240 turns total per series of 8.

Just need open circuit voltage and short circuit current at running rpm....

Let me think...........
Dave fills a 3" dia spool so the average dia = 2" X 3.14= 6.25" per turn
125'X 12" = 1500"/ 6.26" turns = 240T

Not sure on spool length.

[BroMikey]

#23awg copper is 20ohms per 1000 feet for a single series connected
circuit. This is for 1 and 3 such circuits are then all connected in parallel
to each other giving a total

Rt = 1/R1 + 1/R2 + 1/R3 = 6.667 ohms right again.

[bistander]

Not quite

#23awg copper is 20ohms per 1000 feet for a single series connected
circuit. This is for 1 and 3 such circuits are then all connected in parallel
to each other giving a total

Rt = 1/R1 + 1/R2 + 1/R3 = 6.667 ohms right again.

It may be the correct value but your equation is wrong.

1/Rt = 1/R1 + 1/R2 + 1/R3 + ..... 1/Rn.

bi

[NROC]

The value is right,

The equation should just be 1/(1/R1 + 1/R2 + 1/R3)

All the Best

[bistander]

Cogging again

...
And here's an interesting bit from an old video where I only had six of the 12 coils on the machine because the AMP draw with the coils UNLOADED was like 18-19 amps WITH JUST SIX COILS in place. Why so high when WITHOUT coils in place it is less that 12 amps if "cogging makes no difference at speed" as bi has claimed?? I'll give you a clue. It's because he doesn't know what he is talking about. Is that a big enough clue?
https://youtu.be/A3DakXN-cR8

Hi Turion,

I assume by "coils" you mean coils with cores. So you have 12A draw on drive motor with no cores in place. And then with six cores in place you see 18-19A. Same RPM. You blame this on cogging. The increase in drive motor current (and power to turn the rotor) is NOT due to cogging. Cogging has negligible effect in power at speed. The Eddy current and hysteresis losses in the cores are responsible for the increased power needed to turn the rotor at speed.

Regards,

bi

[bistander]

Cogging again

Then why does the amp draw go DIWNwhen I use magnetic neutralization,which you claim doesn’t work.

It did not on your last test or on Sky's.

And I do not, did not, claim that your "magnetic neutralization" does not work. It appears to mitigate cogging. But that is a non-factor to power required at speed.

bi