Multifilar Generator Coil - Lenz delay Experiments

[BroMikey]

Sky,
How long is each strand?

Hi bromikey, nice work and nice coil
you have going there.

I finished my first coil, I integrated the other 12 strand coil I had,
though that means I had to make the strand length shorter.
Specs:
26 strand multifilar coil
110 feet per strand
24awg. magnet wire
46 ounces of copper

I think this is the right post.

[BroMikey]

My coil: 24 strands of #23 each 125 feet long = 4.62 lbs of copper per coil

Sky's coil: 26 strands of #24 each 110 feet long = 3.497 pounds

That's .75% as much copper. Sky, I have NO IDEA if you will see the speed up under load effect or not with your coil at 1800 rpm, 2800 rpm, or if it will have to be FASTER.

Dave

Also in an earlier post Sky and I talked about this and I suggested that
may need to settle for 2 channels of 12 strands a piece. This would give
him a double channel with each circuit having a satisfactory amount of
wire and possibly run at 3000 rpm's because with the small rotors it
seems it takes a higher rpm than the 12" rotor which travels so much
faster.

He is going to try 12 strands of 110' which is 12 X 110 = 1300' so
his circuit will have 300 feet more than your circuit which is 4 X 250' or
the other build of 8 X 125' = 1000' Also.

He wants to see if this coil will speed up under load as a beginning then
later he may build a better machine. This was all discussed early in the
thread.

Although I am wondering if 3 circuits give an exponential increase over
2 circuits of a 1000'? Just wondering if it must be 3 circuits of a 1000'
to get more.

Note: I have been following your design for 6 years and it was only
recently that it became clear to me about there being 3 chennels so
now I know.

[BroMikey]

Hi all, Hi bromikey, nice work and nice coil you have going there.

I finished my first coil, I integrated the other 12 strand coil I had, though that means I had to make the strand length shorter.
Specs:
26 strand multifilar coil
110 feet per strand
24awg. magnet wire
46 ounces of copper

Might be good, will continue working on project.
peace love light

Is this the correct winding information?

[SkyWatcher]

Hi all, Hi bromikey, yes that is correct and the other information you gave is also correct.

Hi turion, thanks for sharing the information again, hope it's at least lenz neutral at a reasonable rpm.

Have been cleaning the wire ends today and applying masking tape to each wire for continuity checking and marking.
peace love light

[BroMikey]

Been there. Done that. Glad to see you are
seeing this through. You won’t be sorry.

Sounds like you have agreed with our plan. So it doesn't HAVE to be
3 circuits. Well I know that from my first one only had one channel
and it sped up under load

Good to see everyone out today making the rounds

[BroMikey]

Well I'm pretty excited about Sky's build even tho his motor is
probably overkill he will be able to hold on to this setup for a testing
platform to see what coils do what. He seems to be working at break
neck speed winding so many coils and spitting out a new rotor like
it's popcorn

The cancellation on his rig is working great too. Yes Sky I could tell
the difference in the two video's when you started up. The video with
the magnet in repulsion does make it smoother and quicker, I mean
why not the opposition magnet is 85% cancelling, you can see it. AND
if you want to see it even more remove the belt so you are not fighting
the drag on the drive motor. Maybe you did that?

I made that mistake in video showing how easy the rotor moved while
the belt was on and the cogging from the PMM was engaging. But still
even a belt has irregularities.

it's gonna be awesome to see someone go public in video form with
all the details. GO SKYWATCHER!!!

[bistander]

Turns per coil

My coil: 24 strands of #23 each 125 feet long = 4.62 lbs of copper per coil

Sky's coil: 26 strands of #24 each 110 feet long = 3.497 pounds

That's .75% as much copper. Sky, I have NO IDEA if you will see the speed up under load effect or not with your coil at 1800 rpm, 2800 rpm, or if it will have to be FASTER.

Dave

Turion, Sky,

What is the most important factor of coil design? In other words, what attribute of the generator coil most affects its performance? It is the number of turns, or turns per coil. A figure seldom mentioned by you. Sure, it is vaguely related to the total wire length, or mass and gauge, and/or size of coil, but not in an absolute manner.

In your post you say there is a 25% difference in copper mass and infer that may cause a considerable difference in performance between the two coils.

Turion's coil has 25% more copper.
Sky's coil has 8.3% more strands. (26 vs 24)
Turion's coil has 13.6% longer strands. (125' vs 110')
Sky's coil uses wire with 20.8% less cross sectional area. (#24 vs #23)
Sky's coil will have less average length of wire per turn than Turion's coil. (3 to 8%, SWAG)
Resulting turns per coil (T/c), Sky's vs Turion's, -2/+4%.

Without knowing the exact coil dimensions it is impossible to accurately calculate the number of turns. It is a lot easier to count the turns as it is wound. Most every other coil winder, mechanical or human, does this.

Of course the RPM or frequency, the core material, the gap distance, number of magnets and strength of the magnets will all influence the results.

Good luck Sky. Please measure and post the AC power when you install the coil, and then as you load the coil.

Regards,

bi

[bistander]

Looked like a good test

Sky is running an AC motor not on batteries, but on wall power. His rotors are nothing like mine, nor are his magnets anywhere near the same, but this is a close enough replication for YOU to use the data to refute my conclusions. How scientific of you. It is just the kind of thing I would expect from you.
...

... I put 3 coils on my machine this morning and only saw the amp draw go up .7 amps
...

Magnetic neutralization didn't appear to function on your machine either. I was waiting for additional tests and data. Didn't seem forthcoming so I summed up what was given. Notice I called it evidence, not conclusive proof. But it does support what I told you like a year ago. Cogging is a non-factor at speed. So methods to eliminate cogging are unlikely to produce results at speed.

As far as Sky's test goes, he neutralized cogging (mostly, pretty much eliminating magnetic lock-up), and it made no difference in input power to the motor turning the generator rotor at speed. Why does it matter, the source AC or DC, orientation of rotor magnets, or difference in the magnets? Let's look at more data on your machine.

Regards,

bi

[BroMikey]

,

What is the most important factor of coil design?
Turion's coil has 25% more copper.

Of course the RPM or frequency, the core material, the gap distance, number of magnets and strength of the magnets will all influence the results.

Good luck Sky. Please measure and post the AC power when you install the coil, and then as you load the coil.

Regards,

bi

Sky can see right thru you Bi


Ac coils

Wrong answer BI. As is normal you are trading apples for oranges as we
always say when mixing old science with the new.

First of all we need to focus on what the end result is. OVER UNITY is
the end of a properly designed generator head. You need enough mass
to do this yet to speed up under a loaded coil all you need is somewhere
between 1200' and 1300' for 29awg and the same for 25awg all
depending on gap and how big the magnets are or the amount of
flux.

BUT IN GENERAL we don't want the 1300' we want 1000' Why?
We could go up to 2000' and the speed up under load will run while.
this is so much fun to watch but offers less generated power because
a bunch of the energy in the coil is being used to lower the drive input.

What Dave is saying is that he builds his coil to neither speed up nor
does it slow the rotor down. WHY? Because he wants the maximum
electrical power possible for that wire.

Thru the long years of winding many dozens if not hundreds of coils
only to remove some wire or use a lower number of strands Dave
found the happy medium. Dave found that 1000' of series connected
strands gave the most output.

1000' is a measurement made using 23awg wire and 60lb magnets on
a 12" rotor. A person may use a smaller rotor and weaker magnets
and still get speed up or achieve the lenz free state but be at a higher
rpm. Instead of 2800rpm it may take 3500 rpm's

Weak magnets still work but generator less current and if you use
3000rpm's on an 8" rotor you may need the 1300' to reach the
null point. NULL not speed up.

[BroMikey]

Let me continue by giving everyone an example of one machine I
have upstairs. The coil is 60 oz with the big fat iron "C" core. This
puts the copper much less because the iron core is 3/4" X 3/4" with
the "C" at 3" X 4" X 3" a fairly weighty piece of grain oriented electrical
steel.

The magnets are 50 plus pulling power. The rotor 10" The wire spool
holds 24 strands of number 29awg wire with each strand measuring
170' each.

I am not using magnetic cancellation on this rig so it is a beast to get
it started, in fact a burnt up an AC induction motor starting it as it
needed 5.5amps at 120vac to get her up and running. After start up
or while running the amp draw was lower and yet again dropped by
using a Variac to bring down the voltage.

So on this generator head I used a clutch from off of a chainsaw to
slip start it up. This saved my motor. I have set the stage so I can
show you the results of my coils testing.

READY?

I found my favorite gap and number of strands to be dramatic in
video. After start up is out of the way the drive motor runs at 85vac
and 2.38 amps and coil is open circuit so 202 watts of drive power is
needed to hurl the 20 magnets of 50lbs each past two 3/4" blocks of
core. Lots of drag.

I found 17 strands connected in series to be the most exciting for
that puny wire size max rated in coils at 100ma. At 2890' or 17 X 170
I could power a 5 watt led light at 3 watts of real power and at the same
time get the drive watts to drop to 85vac and 1.87amps = 159 wats.

This is a 43 watt drive input savings or 202 - 159 = 43 watt savings.

The rpm's wer already at 3000 before speed up and went much much
higher when the coil is engaged. This is for a single coil not 10-12 coils.

In this case the focus is on the energy stored in the coil magnetically
that is set to be released at TDC (Top Dead Center) This shows just
how effective coils can be to assist rotor action.

[BroMikey]

Now let us talk about the same rig in the previous post using or
stopping at the correct number of strands so as not to be sensational
but to generate without any speed up and more importantly with any
slow down of the rotor. Now I could make a video of that but who
would be the wiser?

What would I need to do? Well first I would need to explain that today
the generators all slow down the rotor when power is drawn so a governor
is used to raise the throttle up to maintain rpm's like rider mower does
in tall grass.

Did you see it? Yup, it went right over you heads.

Anyway I get 220vac at 50ma using 6 strands or 6 X 170' = 1020"
just like Dave said. This is 11 watts of real power using an Ohmite
resistor block then times that by 4 gives 44 watts or 4 channels using a
24 strand coil which is what mine is.

Or if you so desire to add a strand you can balance between current
output and drive motor assisting. Take your pick.

This is the null, a place where the rotor does not speed up nor slow down.

Thane Heins has shown both setups in his video's.

[SkyWatcher]

Hi all, Hi bromikey, thanks for the positive encouragement and thanks for sharing all the good information, do enjoy reading your posts.

And thanks for sharing all that you share and have shared turion, without your sharing, I would probably not be working on this project.

Been working on the coil, have one 13 strand power channel marked, wired and ready to go, need to finish the other 13 strand power channel.
peace love light

[BroMikey]

Hi... do enjoy reading your posts.

And thanks for sharing all that you share and have shared turion,

Looks like another excellent build, better than shooting in the dark.
Thx 4 the pat on the head. Just keep going and you will be in shock
all day long in the weeks to come, knowing what you will see is the
key to further success.

You know what would be really cool? If that arm that that holds the
repulsion magnet could be pivoted out of the way and then back again
to show the difference with and without. Also i learned that using a
repulsion magnet on an angle (Mine is a long cylinder) did the cancellation
and once it got past TDC the rotor got a big push. Something to ponder.

The MADMACK wheel I built last winter is showing me things at slow
speeds, like 20rmp's. Maybe later.

Also I looked hard and found the dual terminal connector strips that use
a miniature watch screw driver. You know like the connectors on a
circuit board that are ofter green. Makes for a much more compact
wiring layout. Phoenix makes some, they are very tiny holes with hardly
any space between them.

Right now I am using the huge strips like you are.I'll find them
and post it later.

[bistander]

Losers

For those who still want to argue that magnetic neutralization is worth nothing:

werjefelt

Scroll down to the info on the "Magnetic Battery" (3rd entry down, but the FIRST entry is also worth reading) and read to your heart's content. These are the principles I applied to the generator I built. Specifically figure 9.

This is the original patent on the use of magnetic neutralization that I read BEFORE the idea was brought to this forum. Which is why, when it WAS brought here by MadMac, I supported it. Still do. Always will.

Dave

Hi Turion,

Yep, saw that a while back. A quote from the linked article.

A representative of the Sumitomo Corporation who visited Werjefelt's manufacturing facility said that the invention could be "the most important discovery this century."

Which century was that? 29 years ago. Didn't pan out there did it Turion? You should pick better ideas to copy. Losers like Werjefelt or MadMack have nothing that works.

BTW, I still think MadMack had some connection to https://ie.energy/earth_engine.html
A bunch of losers.

Regards,

bi

[SkyWatcher]

Hi all, hi bromikey, thanks for the positive words, the magnet arm can pivot out of the way.

Sounds like the minato wheel, angled magnets giving propulsion, tested that also in the past.

Stopped at the local surplus store and found these 3 terminal, euro style connector strips. 25cents a piece, good deal, just glued enough together on stick, they are much nicer.

Hi turion, thanks for sharing the information.
No argument here, as this project only has one core so far, so that is not conclusive of anything.

Besides, I AM not here to disprove anything, just experiment and hopefully get similar results as you, though will be lower power of course.

Here is both power channels wired up and ready to go.
peace love light