Multifilar Generator Coil - Lenz delay Experiments

[bistander]

Cogging again

...{your edit}... Are you going to tell me it makes the hysteresis and eddy currents go away?

What do you think? If you "neutralize" magnetism in the core(s), then there is no core flux, or changing flux, so there would be no eddy currents or hysteresis, right? But then there would be no generated voltage in the coil. So kind of makes the machine useless.

The way I see you "magnetically neutralize" is to mount magnets on the rotor and stator remote form the coil core. So your neutralization magnets do not alter the flux in the core. Your neutralization magnets produce a counteracting force on the rotor at specific points which offsets the pull force from the main field magnets and cores. This appears effective to counteract cogging. But does nothing to alter the flux from the main field magnets through the core(s).

Regards,

bi

[SkyWatcher]

Hi all, am going to set aside the big coil for the moment, it is possible it's not built properly.

Am going to try the 51 strand-30awg. coil made from the previous smaller project.
Will hook up 25 strands to start with, which is 1000 feet and see the difference.

It is possible the 24awg. strands on the big coil, are not tight enough together, to give the required capacitance, maybe.

Don't know what to say about turion's amp draw lowering with use of magnet to core cancelling at speed.
It's obviously helping in some way we're not comprehending yet.
Ideally, at speed, the magnet to core attraction incoming and outgoing phases would be perfectly equal.
Though with eddy and hysteresis in the mix, things probably change that we are not realizing, regardless of my simple test, only one core with probably fairly low eddy and hysteresis, my core pieces are insulated, painted.
I noticed in a video of turion's, it looked as though he used a grinder to flatten the core rod pieces and that would increase eddy currents by not keeping the rod pieces insulated electrically.
Now amplify that by 12 coil cores and we can see that yes, he probably had some good eddys and hysteresis going.
Though even with silicon steel laminates, 12 of those cores and the magnet neutralization would still lower amps quite a bit, probably.
peace love light

[BroMikey]

@Bi is right magnets and hysteresis plus core loss at speed mitigate
flux during start up. Right Bi

You can get paid now Bi you have done your job.


@Sky
Transformer core leaflets of grain oriented steel are welded (Electrically)
together to hold the block. Yes there are always some lose of perfection.

Motor stator leaflets are drilled and is often stamped or hit like a dent
(at which time each hole electrically contacts) All motors and transformers
leaflets are electrically connected.

Sounds like fun over there, keep me up to date on the 30awg coil.

[BroMikey]

It may be the correct value but your equation is wrong.

1/Rt = 1/R1 + 1/R2 + 1/R3 + ..... 1/Rn.

bi

The value is right,

The equation should just be 1/(1/R1 + 1/R2 + 1/R3)

All the Best

I really got these guys rattled the math you have down pat.

[alexelectric]

Being a small unit they most likely have to use smaller wire with lots of turns to achieve a reasonable voltage level for transmission as well as making the best of the real estate available for the wire and keep the rpm's within a reasonable range for the blade design. With something that small their probably using blades that run in a TSR range of 7 to 9 which is pretty fast.

I started building 3 phase air core alternators in the late 90's. Much more efficient and very light weight. I used to have custom triangle magnets made, not for the cogging - specifically for the magnetic surface area over the round or rectangular to advantage the real estate for maximum copper. Still have a few hundred of these in a box I use for my own toys... The stators were designed for the lowest possible resistance as well as ultra low rpm operation.

Given this background I can see a few flaws in the solenoid style alternator design, I understand your reasoning for the design but with a few design tweaks you may end up in a much more efficient place.

The low Lenz design that I posted doesn't stop or lower the lenz force ( we need this for a powerful output ). What it does is divert the force away from the rotor - that is - because the magnets are stationary and the stator coils are stationary the Lenz force is diverted into the solid mount of the case. The rotor simply directs the polarity. There is still a slight force working on the rotor but most of the Lenz force is against the magnet and stator. I posted a video of the stator wound with 8 ga wire producing 28 amps in that small fan motor conversion. Even at very low rpm the current output is very high for it's size. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dordyphTKFs

In any case, I know you guys will figure it out... I'm simply a curious observer in your project.

interesting what you mention, but you can give more details and more clear demonstrations
Thank you

[BroMikey]

I'm getting old. I wasn't exactly sure about the ohm measurement on those coils I posted about, so I scoured my old notebooks this morning until I found the proper entry. All coils were SUPPOSED to be 3 strands 800' of #23.

I pulled all 12 coils off the big machine because some were NOT speeding up under load' They measured as follows
1 @ 5.2 ohms Nope
2 @ 5.4 ohms Nope
6 @ 5.5 ohms Nope
2 @ 5.6 ohms DID speed up under load
1 @ 5.7 ohms WASN'T tested

Hummm..... Very interesting, let me think about the old coils BRB.

1000' = 20 and using 800' could be multiplied as .8 X 20ohm = 16ohms
then using the parallel resistance calculator = 5.33 ohms

not sure what happened there.maybe they are a little longer?

If they were 900' each that would be .9 X 20 = comes to 6 ohms

So I guess they are 850' this must be why you went to 1000'??

[BroMikey]

If 2" is the average diameter, the distance AROUND a two inch diameter circle (circumference) is 6.28319 inches and 125' divided by 6.28319" would be 238.7 turns per strand x 12 strands of wire = 2,864 total turns of wire.
https://youtu.be/A3DakXN-cR8

That is an awesome video Dave. I wish I could see it light up the bulbs
and say maybe 5 or 6 with the rotor turning at 2800 rpm's the motor
amp draw might go down?

would it run at 24vdc @ 18 amps because 36vdc X 18 amps =650watts

3857rpm's. That is a crazy speed, do you have to run it that high to get lenz free?

That is a beautiful machine Dave, you should be very proud of it.

Look at all the money you have tied up in it, so incredible.

You could put 10 or 15 LED bulbs in parallel to get what you want, a
small price to pay considering all you have tied up.

Let's see the average LED bulb is 12 watts and you are putting out
say 180-220 watt so 15 bulbs is 15 X 12 = 180 watts. Or does that
throw a damper on speed up?

That would be dramatic wouldn't it. 15 bulbs per channel X 6 coils.

Doing the math even at 650w input you could show 1200w output
with only half the coils hooked up. Not bad. Are all of your coils that
are left over not speeding up? So run 3850 r's then and use two
bulbs in series? No? Use two 75w bulbs in series and your voltage
will work out better.

Just kidding on having it speed up but you know what I mean.






[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3DakXN-cR8&feature=youtu.be[/VIDEO]

[SkyWatcher]

Hi all, thanks for sharing all the good and helpful information.
Just finished connecting 25 strands in series and will be mounting the coil/core where the other large coil/core was, we shall see what happens.
Will increase strands in series if needed, though have a feeling 25 will do it with the more powerful magnets on the drill press magnet rotor.

Also, take note of me homemade back to back drill chuck, motor arbor/adapter.
Will be using this in the near future, to use with the scooter motor that I was trying to use, and maybe get a different one, higher power scooter motor.
peace love light

[BroMikey]

That is an old version...... Kept trying to
redo it and make the grooves deeper and the clamp tighter, but gave up after 3 tries. It had lots of problems..... so high amp draw.

Here is a later version running with ALL coils speeding up under load
and six 300 watt bulbs lit. Still NO magnetic neutralization in place

With 12 of the 1” magnets that are 3/4 thick the output goes up to 250% of the original. Just so you know.

In the video above, I NEEDED the 36 volts to break the magnetic lock because that rotor had six magnets and places for 12 coils, so on start up, each magnet was aligned with a coil on each side of it. Once it was running voltage could be turned down to 24 or 12. I eventually settled on 24 volts as the best input.

In the video below, to get the machine to even start with all 12 coils on the machine, I had a button that would fire all the coils as motor coils for a split second to break the magnetic lock,

https://youtu.be/l4Rjh0w3SuY

Wow it is a beautiful thing to neutralize and use 12 X 1" magnets
wow wee that's a lot of improvement and with both in place a 2000w
machine becomes a 5000w machine. Better get a cooling scheme.


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4Rjh0w3SuY[/VIDEO]

[dragon]

Turion, nice build ! Sounds sweet humming away there. What are you estimating the efficiency to be as shown in the video? Are those 220 volt 300 watt bulbs?

[SkyWatcher]

Hi all, the double drill chuck motor adapter works nicely, it runs very true.

Going to use this scooter motor now and remove the drill press monstrosity.

Now the motor can easily be swapped for anything with a shaft diameter of 1/2" or less.
And if it needs some pillow block bearings, etc., that can easily be implemented as well, as some are on my shelves.

Also, will be able to use the motor pulse controller I built to run this motor and we can see changes in rotor speed better.
peace love light

[BroMikey]

@ Dragon
Turion's coils put out 130v his bulbs are for USA grid. 120vac

@Sky
Great Idea, excellent brain storming.

[BroMikey]

Dragon,
Those are 300 watt bulbs.

At 2800 rpm those coils put out 130 volts @ 1.5 amps. (with 6 of the 2" neos on the rotor, which is what I had.) And there are 12 coils. I know the generator in that video is doing at LEAST 2800 rpm because Lenz neutralization is evident. If there wasn't delayed Lenz with that many coils loaded, the rotor would have come to a screeching halt as the motor burnt to a crisp. Those coils REQUIRED 2800 rpm with that rotor and those magnets to get the delayed Lenz effect, so it is going at LEAST that fast. It may have been going FASTER, which would actually REDUCE the output of the coil as a generator coil. You have to remember there is a "Wind" of operation for these machines. Too slow, and you have Lenz. Too fast and you have a motoring effect and loss of power. Just right and you get NO Lenz, and MAX coil output as a generator coil. If the machine in the video is going the predetermined 2800 rpm, the output is at least 1800-2000 watts. The motor was running at 24 volts at probably about 33-34 amps since magnetic neutralization was not in the picture yet, so it was consuming almost 800 watts. That's about 2.25 times as much output as input, but it is NOT sustainable with that setup. The motor would soon burn up pulling that many watts. Gotta have that "worthless" magnetic neutralization.

The thing about this whole setup is that it has to be tuned to do what YOU want it to do. For instance, let's say you give it a bit more voltage. Now it speeds up and the output SHOULD go up, but it DOESN'T because instead of an increase in output, you get a "motoring" effect from the speed up under load, which actually decreases the generated output of the coil. You can't have your cake and eat it too. So you have two things you can adjust. You can decrease the voltage supplied to the motor back to what it was, or you can shorten the wires on the coil. Shortening the wires on the coil SHOULD cause the voltage output to drop, but instead it raises the frequency at which the coils will delay lenz, so now lenz is delayed at this new, faster rpm, there is no motoring action at this increased speed, and the output of the coil goes up. It went DOWN because you shortened the wire, but it went up because you are operating in the window. A lot of this stuff is counter intuitive. If you haven't built it, it is sometimes hard to get your head around. The main thing to keep in mind is EVERY coil will speed up under load at the correct frequency for THAT coil.

I spend a lot of time looking at the "effect" something has rather than trying to figure out how the laws apply, because in some situations, they do NOT. Find an effect. Figure out how to manipulate it to your benefit. Reap the rewards. Or not.

Nobody wants to listen to me. That's ok. I know what I know.

So think about what I just said. The MORE wire put on the coil, the slower it can run and still achieve Lenz delay. With longer wire and more strands in parallel, we get MORE output, but also LESS output because the magnets on the rotor are not going past the coils as many times per second. How do we make up for THAT? We add MORE magnets to the rotor. What does that teach us about the kind of machines we ultimately want to build. The bigger the rotor, the more magnets we can put around the outside of it so the more output we can get, and also, the bigger the rotor the more coils we can put around the outside. Since there IS no cost to us in Lenz and there IS no cost to us in magnetic drag if we are using magnetic neutralization, it may be possible to REALLY slow the rotor rpm DOWN. How slow can we go? I have NO IDEA. There are lots of things to experiment with here.

That is a good post. I enjoy all repeats because in them you are reminded
of things you had forgotten. For instance the 300w bulbs sometimes
get mistook for the 100w bulbs in the other video.

great post Dave for those of us who want to build these OU genny's.

[Quantum_well]

Light bulb moment.

During a lifetime there are some memorable days like when you learn to ride a bike or the day your first child is born.
For me one of those days was when I discovered that induction was a relativistic effect.
If you don't get Lens's predicted sign change you don't get anything.
I'd like to know what other's view on the subject is.

[BroMikey]

During a lifetime there are some memorable days like when you learn to ride a bike or the day your first child is born.
For me one of those days was when I discovered that induction was a relativistic effect.
If you don't get Lens's predicted sign change you don't get anything.
I'd like to know what other's view on the subject is.

ANSWER
Get up off of your plus and minus sign then do the experiments. the
lights will turn on more than in theory it will be literal. You'll have the
power.