Roto Verter

[Peter Lindemann]

Alternator Drag is Too Much

I did some research and i found that I needed a resistor in series with the coil.

Great info found here...
Using an Alternator in Renewable Energy Projects

The alternator seems to be TOO much for the rotoverter not enough torque when the coils are engaged.

Mart

Mart,

Yes, this is what I have been trying to tell people. When the current is restricted to the RV in the motor mode, the electric input goes down, BUT SO DOES THE MECHANICAL OUTPUT! A standard automobile alternator is NOT very efficient, and has significant drag from hysteresis even BEFORE producing any output current. (That is why they run so HOT in your car.) When these "real loads" are applied, the RV motor cannot respond to produce more torque, because its input current is limited by the capacitors and the reduced run voltage. The RV systems that are saving people money are designed to run a specific, fixed load, and the system is tuned to do that. It cannot respond to a variable load without being thrown out of its "operating window".

Peter

[Chip Shorter]

It takes a few horsepower to run an alternator. Depending on the fla I would say 15-20 for a modern automotive say 130 amp alternator. I can get back with some real numbers for certain series alternators but generally thats the deal.

[theremart]

RE: Alternator...

ok...

I think I was introducing some how TOO much load on the alternator at one time. If I could figure out how to downgrade the load to match the output to a fixed point, that matched the RV, plus a small load I think I would have something. ( see next post for HP calculation )

I think I will pull my wheel off my SSG with the wind generator and try it on the RV. I could then tune the alternator for a fixed point of voltage.

It is just now I have to be much much more careful about the balance of the magnets turning at 3200 RPM is a new ball game. Will enclose this in a box...

maybe I could embed the magnets into a wood wheel.... or cast a resin mold for the magnets...

Before I invest in a frequency generator, I believe I need to know who has built one, and how much more horsepower this will put out.

BTW I have pulled the hood off of my Air conditioner unit, I found tons of dust on the screen, getting this off alone will help tons on the cooling costs...

I hope to lubricate each of the motors in the AC unit and see if I can measure how much voltage is going to each.

Mart

[theremart]

Horse power for alternator...

Calculation for an alternator horsepower...
FAQ

How much horsepower loss
will an alternator cost ?

As was stated in the answer to the first question, an alternator is a power converter. It converts mechanical power into electrical power. So it doesn't lose power, but rather changes its form. No electrical motor or generator is 100% efficient and this is true of alternators as well. Alternators are about 85% efficient with power being lost in the form of heat and wind resistance (cooling fans). Thus the real power loss of the alternator is relatively small.

How much horsepower does an alternator pull ? You can mathematically determine the horsepower cost at any given load. (Remember, alternators respond to load. If there is no load present the alternator is basically freewheeling.)

Amps x Volts = Watts
Watts / 745.7 (one HP) = Electrical HP Produced by the Alternator
HP x 15% Efficiency Loss = HP Loss
HP + HP Loss = Total HP Used

Example:
57A x 14.9V = 849.3 Watts
849.3 Watts / 745.7 = 1.14 HP
1.14 HP x 15% = 0.17 HP
1.14 + 0.17 = 1.31 HP Total

Now we know the cost to run the electrical system. The most important question is what is the payback ? Which way does the horsepower benefit you ? How much horsepower are you currently losing because of low electrical system voltage ?

[Peter Lindemann]

Theoretically, YES, but actually, NO!

Calculation for an alternator horsepower...
FAQ

How much horsepower loss
will an alternator cost ?

As was stated in the answer to the first question, an alternator is a power converter. It converts mechanical power into electrical power. So it doesn't lose power, but rather changes its form. No electrical motor or generator is 100% efficient and this is true of alternators as well. Alternators are about 85% efficient with power being lost in the form of heat and wind resistance (cooling fans). Thus the real power loss of the alternator is relatively small.

How much horsepower does an alternator pull ? You can mathematically determine the horsepower cost at any given load. (Remember, alternators respond to load. If there is no load present the alternator is basically freewheeling.)

Amps x Volts = Watts
Watts / 745.7 (one HP) = Electrical HP Produced by the Alternator
HP x 15% Efficiency Loss = HP Loss
HP + HP Loss = Total HP Used

Example:
57A x 14.9V = 849.3 Watts
849.3 Watts / 745.7 = 1.14 HP
1.14 HP x 15% = 0.17 HP
1.14 + 0.17 = 1.31 HP Total

Now we know the cost to run the electrical system. The most important question is what is the payback ? Which way does the horsepower benefit you ? How much horsepower are you currently losing because of low electrical system voltage ?

Mart,

These statements about the efficiency of alternators are pure "parrot chips"! You can prove it to yourself easily. Just take a standard AC motor (something you can plug into your Kill-A-Watt meter) and use it to turn an alternator. Make sure you set it up so you can control the strength of the magnetic field on the rotor with an external power supply. Spin up the assembly with the Alternator field winding UNENERGIZED and record how much power it takes. Then, without connecting a load to the output, start turning ON the field windings. You will see that the stronger the magnetic field of the rotor, the more DRAG the Alternator produces. This is the Hysteresis Drag I was referring to. This LOSS cannot be recovered at any time, and is converted to HEAT in the stator core. Besides this loss, you have wind resistance, brush friction, bearing friction, and the standard Back EMF (reverse motoring effects) of electricity production.

The point is, the losses in a standard Alternator are significant, and (I believe) higher than what are stated in the normal literature. Efficiencies of 70% or lower are more likely than the stated 85%.

So, since the RV is COP<1 and the Alternator is COP<1, connecting them together CAN NOT create a self-running system. So, please, run the experiment. See for yourself. And, be done with it. That this myth still persists has been a huge waste of time for honest, yet under-educated experimenters. Let's put it to rest, right here!

Peter

[theremart]

RE: putting to rest

Mart,

These statements about the efficiency of alternators are pure "parrot chips"! You can prove it to yourself easily. Just take a standard AC motor (something you can plug into your Kill-A-Watt meter) and use it to turn an alternator. Make sure you set it up so you can control the strength of the magnetic field on the rotor with an external power supply. Spin up the assembly with the Alternator field winding UNENERGIZED and record how much power it takes. Then, without connecting a load to the output, start turning ON the field windings. You will see that the stronger the magnetic field of the rotor, the more DRAG the Alternator produces. This is the Hysteresis Drag I was referring to. This LOSS cannot be recovered at any time, and is converted to HEAT in the stator core. Besides this loss, you have wind resistance, brush friction, bearing friction, and the standard Back EMF (reverse motoring effects) of electricity production.

The point is, the losses in a standard Alternator are significant, and (I believe) higher than what are stated in the normal literature. Efficiencies of 70% or lower are more likely than the stated 85%.

So, since the RV is COP<1 and the Alternator is COP<1, connecting them together CAN NOT create a self-running system. So, please, run the experiment. See for yourself. And, be done with it. That this myth still persists has been a huge waste of time for honest, yet under-educated experimenters. Let's put it to rest, right here!

Peter

--------------------------------

Peter,

It does start to make sense to me after I realized the alternator was just like my windmill generator. The more you demand of the alternator the greater the torque that is put on the motor, I infer because of the greater magnetic fields that are created.

This has been a learning process for me. I admit I am a mere child trying to find his way around in the dark.

I do not have an electric motor to test the alternator, nor do I have the alternator, it was returned to the store and I got my money back
I am glad for this experience for I have learned a good deal more about alternators and their limits.

Onward to my Air condition system.... to see if the caps are tuned to the load, and to oil the motors for savings for the summer to come.

Mart

[aadee92]

So nobody has looped the RV? And it "cant" be done??

[theremart]

RE: looping RV.

So nobody has looped the RV? And it "cant" be done??

Ash says yes, Peter says no, but wants to have a test done to get to the real answers of how much torque this really has.. Ash has agreed to put up the bill for the test, but money is tight for Ash now.

All I have done is make a prime mover, but have not added all the fancy other stuff that supposed to make it even more better. My adding an alternator was my idea, not Ash's... or Peter's... and is not a standard RV.

I am going to hold off till Ash comes thru with the $ for testing, then I will test my RV and have a much better idea of what I can attach to it to generate energy... Till then I am going to be working on my other projects Air conditioner / Bedini / Alcohol still / geet...

Peace.

[ashtweth]

Mart, you can run your RV with more torque but as stated a zillion times before you will need a FREQUENCY DRIVE to get your shaft HP up.

Now i have reports from Hector stating that Looping is possible from that Sch, certainly if you can extract a portion of the reactive power it is certainly with in our grasp. It takes allot of tunning, so far we are still prodding away and injecting new ideas WHILST testing and refining the old.

I suggest you read the Frequency drive part in the energy saving compilation to see how you can easily hack an existing inverter for proper RV operation with your Alt.

Ash

[theremart]

RE: more torque.

Mart, you can run your RV with more torque but as stated a zillion times before you will need a FREQUENCY DRIVE to get your shaft HP up.

Now i have reports from Hector stating that Looping is possible from that Sch, certainly if you can extract a portion of the reactive power it is certainly with in our grasp. It takes allot of tunning, so far we are still prodding away and injecting new ideas WHILST testing and refining the old.

I suggest you read the Frequency drive part in the energy saving compilation to see how you can easily hack an existing inverter for proper RV operation with your Alt.

Ash

Thanks for replying Ash,

What I lack is the technical skill that Hector has, I do not wish to spend my life working on something that I have no tangible evidence of performance. Or not be able to get it to work due my my lack of technical expertise.

Life is short and I have limited resources so I must choose well. I do think Peter has a good train of thought of taking one of the units that have been modified as you suggested and to test them with the test he suggests.

I would be interested in first getting a working device that Hector has working and doing the testing that Peter has suggested getting the amount of torque in documented form with the scale testing method.

To request me a kindergartener at electronics to hack an inverter I believe is out of my ability. I having read the other posts from the EVgray site have found that even the most experienced at this have smoked their inverters.

This raises many red flags to me, as.....

If I was to depend on this unit, how could I get an inverter that would last for a long time?

What exactly am I shooting at? I mean with this be a black hole for you need, the "one more device" to get this working?

I think Peter has a point in that we need all the cards on the table. If as you say the Frequency drive makes a ""Zillion"" times more torque, I need to know how much a Zillion is.

Not shooting bullets at you man, but asking honest questions...

Peace

[Peter Lindemann]

To re-state.....once again

Mart, you can run your RV with more torque but as stated a zillion times before you will need a FREQUENCY DRIVE to get your shaft HP up.

Now i have reports from Hector stating that Looping is possible from that Sch, certainly if you can extract a portion of the reactive power it is certainly with in our grasp. It takes allot of tunning, so far we are still prodding away and injecting new ideas WHILST testing and refining the old.

I suggest you read the Frequency drive part in the energy saving compilation to see how you can easily hack an existing inverter for proper RV operation with your Alt.

Ash

Ash and Mart,

I agree with Ash, here. An AC induction motor that is power factor corrected AND operated from a variable frequency power supply will have much better performance, and DUE TO the variable frequency supply, the OPERATOR will be able to tune the motor to the load more precisely. Regardless of how good this can be made, the COP of this part of the machine will still be COP<1, due to the function of the Back EMF in the induction motor topology.

Getting one of these systems to "loop" or "run itself and a load" is based on the processes involved in converting some of the captured Reactive Power back into a usable form of energy. We have discussed two methods previously in this thread. The first method was developed by Eric Dollard, and involves using a complex LCR network to phase-shift the current and voltage back into alignment. No one except Eric has accomplished this, and the method remains proprietary. The second method involves using the Reactive Power produced by the RV method as the first stage in a circuit that accomplishes Tesla's "Method of Conversion" for the production of Radiant Energy. There are files in the Panacea library where Hector has reported accomplishing this with some of his circuits. He reported that the "looped" energy easily ran the system, but that it also DRIED OUT THE BATTERY, and so, the experiment could not be sustained. Despite the battery problem, I consider this to be the most important report in the entire RV library, and an all out experimental effort should be pursued to duplicate these results.

The important point here is, that the RV system cannot be "looped" by simply having the RV motor turn a standard, "off-the-shelf" alternator! No one should be suggesting that that should work, and I specifically predict it won't.

So, the question in all of this is........if "looping" is possible, what part of the system is responsible for the real energy gain that makes up for all the losses? Is it the RVing of a motor? Is it simple power factor correction? Is it driving an RV motor with a variable frequency drive? Is it wishful thinking? Is it dumb luck? Or is it TESLA'S METHOD OF CONVERSION for the production of RADIANT ENERGY?

You can guess what my bias is.

Peter

[ashtweth]

Now thats the PL i am used too
Well i will try contacting Eric, tha last i heard he was partiicpating on a certian yahoo group but its inactive ATM.

its really so simple to create that reactive power from off the shelf as we know, even the solid state version. So i would be mortified if Eric wouldn't be interested if some some got hold of him.

Now Mart, i cannot tell you EXACTLY how much torque you will get , each one will vary for each motor. I have personally done the freq drive test and found the shaft power under powering PM DC gen went up, ad the amps stayed the same, i still need to get a more powerful Freq drive to do more video's and test on that one.

As Peter says the same laws apply here, you will need LESS capacitance when adjusting your Frequency. Thats brilliantly written and going in the compilations so we can clean this all up better.

Ash

[theremart]

Ash and Mart,

I agree with Ash, here. An AC induction motor that is power factor corrected AND operated from a variable frequency power supply will have much better performance, and DUE TO the variable frequency supply, the OPERATOR will be able to tune the motor to the load more precisely. Regardless of how good this can be made, the COP of this part of the machine will still be COP<1, due to the function of the Back EMF in the induction motor topology.

Getting one of these systems to "loop" or "run itself and a load" is based on the processes involved in converting some of the captured Reactive Power back into a usable form of energy. We have discussed two methods previously in this thread. The first method was developed by Eric Dollard, and involves using a complex LCR network to phase-shift the current and voltage back into alignment. No one except Eric has accomplished this, and the method remains proprietary. The second method involves using the Reactive Power produced by the RV method as the first stage in a circuit that accomplishes Tesla's "Method of Conversion" for the production of Radiant Energy. There are files in the Panacea library where Hector has reported accomplishing this with some of his circuits. He reported that the "looped" energy easily ran the system, but that it also DRIED OUT THE BATTERY, and so, the experiment could not be sustained. Despite the battery problem, I consider this to be the most important report in the entire RV library, and an all out experimental effort should be pursued to duplicate these results.

The important point here is, that the RV system cannot be "looped" by simply having the RV motor turn a standard, "off-the-shelf" alternator! No one should be suggesting that that should work, and I specifically predict it won't.

So, the question in all of this is........if "looping" is possible, what part of the system is responsible for the real energy gain that makes up for all the losses? Is it the RVing of a motor? Is it simple power factor correction? Is it driving an RV motor with a variable frequency drive? Is it wishful thinking? Is it dumb luck? Or is it TESLA'S METHOD OF CONVERSION for the production of RADIANT ENERGY?

You can guess what my bias is.

Peter

Ok Peter,

Question for you...

I am looking for a DC motor to modify in your way, you stated that one should look for a small gap between the stator and the coils.... ( if memory servers me right ) I wish to look for this sort of motor on ebay so I can build your circuit and hook it up to this motor. Any preferences on brands of motors?

This motor is close to me...

Equipment Resale, Inc. | 00005 Pacific Scientific 1/2 HP 1750 RPM DC Motor

Here are its specs...

Pacific Scientific - SR3642-4822-7-56BC-CU PMDC Motor Parameters


I guess another questions is what is the voltage range of your circuit? This will help me have a range of voltage to know for the target motor..

I am also thinking of tracking down a dyson Air motor. It sure seems tempting ready built balanced motor that looks like an optimal design...

Dyson DC07 DC14 Upright Vacuum Cleaner Complete Motor - eBay (item 190202453923 end time May-27-08 13:38:23 PDT)


----------
This baldor has caught my eye too..

BALDOR INDUSTRIAL DC MOTOR CAT NO CDP3455 - 1HP - eBay (item 130219550977 end time Jun-01-08 07:08:33 PDT)

I guess I am trying to find one that I can cut the rotor the easiest...



Not sure if you had anythoughts about it..

Thanks...

[Peter Lindemann]

Please Wait...

Mart,

There is no "off-the-shelf" motor that can be easily converted to a high efficiency attraction motor. There are dozens of details that must be observed to put the machine in the proper operating window. Please do not start this project at this time. if you would like more details, please call me on the phone.

Thanks,

Peter

[mskhalil]

I have been reading up on it and it seems they recommend certain types of motors.

I am puzzled to know how to wire this I am thinking of getting the two capacitors it requires and trying it.

Part of this is I am going to find a resistor that will help me short these caps, they are to risky to leave with that much voltage on them. I am thinking, I don't have much to loose on this motor, my worst thing I am loosing is time, but I feel I will be gaining experience. Here is a golden opportunity to try something on something I am not afraid to mess up.

that's the sprit
keep working
any help you will find me at ur fingir