Roto Verter

[esaruoho]

which dollard book?

In the last analysis, Power Factor Correction is a manipulation of the phase relationships between the Voltage and the Current in any AC power system. Solid-state methods to convert ordinary Reactive Power back into Real Power are not a part of "standard practice", but they are a mathematical extension of the same process. All of this was published by Borderland Sciences Research Foundation in the 1980's in books authored by Eric Dollard, using his Four Quadrant Theory of AC power and Versor Algebra.

good day peter. thank you so much for your strength and clarity in this thread. you are encouraging others to be clearer with your attitude, and this is what has been missing for so long.

if its ok, i would like to ask - which books authored by eric dollard would be crucial for further understanding his four quadrant theory of ac power?
thank you very much in advance, and now its back to at the thread and at the good will that is coming out in this thread. almost every single other thread has died elsewhere into skepticism and namecalling, or just not received any attention, but this one is one worth archiving.

thank you everyone!!

[Peter Lindemann]

Most Coherent Explanation I have Heard

Ash,

Thank you very much for this "overview" of the RV operations. This is the best I have seen.

If you don't mind, I would like to ask you some very simple and direct questions about the behavior of this set up, since you already have this mostly explained in readily accepted AC power terminology.

1) You state: "When loading the RV prime mover, we will get closer to resonant state and the current that is consumed from the power supply, WILL NOT increase linearly with loading, but may even DECREASE due to the fact, that the overall system resistance might be several times bigger due to high Q non-linear effect."

My question is this: Under this condition, or any other favorable set of circumstances, have you ever MEASURED a mechanical energy production at the shaft (on a dynamometer) that exceeds the electrical input to the motor (ie. COP>1) ? A simple Yes or No will suffice.

2) You also state: "Another aspect with the RV is that the second motor (generator) can be set to semi-resonate at a reasonably hi virtual power. In contrast to the PM which is an example of a parallel resonance tuned to PF=1 under load, the generator exemplifies a series resonance and will have max current & minimal impedance when a cross phase cap is adjusted towards resonance. The virtual power in the alt vs the cap adjusted pf=1 power in the Prime Mover can easily exceed 10:1.."

My question is this: Do you accept that the phenomena you refer to here as "virtual power" is the same as and identical to what is referred to in standard terminology as "Reactive Power", measured in VARs? Again, a simple Yes or No will suffice.

3) And finally, you state: "As theory goes, a percentage of the virtual power can be extracted to a real load with out reflecting back to the PM"

My comments on this are as follows. I know of a number of researchers who have successfully extracted 95% of this power by using complex LRC networks and, for all intents and purposes, phase shifted the current the rest of the 270 degrees forward to create REAL POWER again, with only nominal loading of the generator.

My question is this: How much of this power have you seen extracted, and may I review any data that you have documenting this?

In the last analysis, Power Factor Correction is a manipulation of the phase relationships between the Voltage and the Current in any AC power system. Solid-state methods to convert ordinary Reactive Power back into Real Power are not a part of "standard practice", but they are a mathematical extension of the same process. All of this was published by Borderland Sciences Research Foundation in the 1980's in books authored by Eric Dollard, using his Four Quadrant Theory of AC power and Versor Algebra.

I look forward to learning your answers.

Peter

[ashtweth]

>Even without the output generator, for starters, can we accurately say that the input motor will run more efficient when hooked up in a certain way?

Yes, using a Freq drive and tuning the caps under load. Another dood recently used one of the phases and a choke l and charged a battery, Jason might post this soon after a few bugs

>Therefore, by itself, standing alone, the "prime mover" runs extremely efficient and even more efficient beyond what just power factor correction does?

sort of Well, you can still have all the benefits of the Alt reactive power extraction with the PM, you can loop the PM almost the same way too. I am putting new ideas and circuits off the group together in the new version of the Comp ATM. I guess using the Freq drive and Tunning the PM with the cap to the needs of the lad RUN IN RV MODE, is more efficient then a normal electric motor (off the shelf).

[ashtweth]

Mart i have the latest frequency driven RV inverter called the Sg V4. 12-24 votl and kicks behind Can you ndorp me an email ill send it to you? Not sure if any one on the group cna make one but this document has all the stuff you need for some one who can.

Aaron, no question is painful man.

In the beginning of the RV operation by a 3 Phase configuration the capacitor vectors the current and voltages into a rotation. At the start we have 2 wires AC input and we use capacitor to create the 3rd phase. The chosen (vectoring) capacitor puts voltages (or current) to rotate, all phases 120deg (3 x 120 = 360). In a stand-alone system, the key to operation is the presence of capacitance. This gives electricity somewhere to "go" without the capacitors acting as a load. Thus enabling current to flow in the motor and get it all excited.


The roto verter stator windings are wired in Y configuration and are having 3 terminals. We are feeding 2 of these directly with some sinusoidal voltage, which creates some current in 2 of the stator coils (they are connected in series in case of Y-connection). this current in these coils will lag the applied voltage by 90 degrees due to the inductive nature of these windings. The third terminal is fed through a capacitor. This compensates the lagging of current (current which is going through a capacitor will be leading the applied voltage for 90 degrees) in the third stator coil. So there will be created a rotating magnetic field in the stator windings, which will induce the current in initially static squirrel cage rotor windings.

The squirrel cage can actually be considered as a transformer secondary winding, which is in "shorted" state when the rotor is just starting it's rotation. And what happens when you short a transformer? It's primary virtual inductance (and thus the total impedance) decreases very much and lot of current will be needed from the power source. Point is, that to maintain this rotating magnetic field in the stator when the rotor is just accelerating, we have to supply a lot of current to ALL of the stator windings.

That's why we need much bigger capacity for the start cap - Xc=1/(2*PI*f*C) - we are having constant frequency and in order to pass more current to the third coil also we need to decrease the reactive resistance of the capacitor, thus we need to increase the capacitor's value. So we will use the start cap that is able to pass almost similar amount of current to the third stator coil also.


Now when the rotor comes up to speed, the rotating magnetic field of the stator will cut less and less. the squirrel-cage windings and the virtual transformer shorting effect decreases and thus the needed current from the power source also decreases. Now when we still have the big start cap in place, then it's Xc (reactive capacitance) will be so small when compared with the third stator winding's XL (reactive inductance XL=2*PI*f*L), that the total current in the third winding will be mostly determined by this XL value and thus the current in first two stator coils and third stator coil will be almost in the same phase, thus killing the rotating magnetic field that should be produced by the stator for normal operation for this kind of motor.

Now we need to disconnect the start cap and keep only the much smaller run cap, which will restore the properly rotating field in the stator (the cap creates the needed phase shift for current in the third winding). This advice is valid only for the prime mover in UNLOADED CASE (for the case when we do not need to run big loads with it). The values of the capacitors and components are specific to the motor size used.

The starting cap is 100 to 200uF, the running cap is from 7 to 40uF (370V oil caps). Starting cap is to give a boost from 0. Big motors require it to acquire torque to move the rotor mass plus alternator mass to rotational RV effect speed. The run capacitor is chosen as to maintain best 120 degree rotation within the 3PH windings under the intended target load.

This is what hector regards as a high Q (reactive power) semi resonant state. The loaded motor is a bit similar to a starting but unloaded motor - you need especially to tune the caps so, that the semi-resonance takes place at LOADED STATE. Then according to the resonance laws and depending on the Q factor, the apparent parallel LC circuit resistance can be many times bigger than the individual XL or XC (and so the consumed power from the power supply is minimal). At the same time very big circulating currents will be existing in the same parallel LC circuit (motor windings).So the effect will be such: when the RV prime mover is running idle,. then it will consume some amount of power and it's total resistance is mainly determined by the XL of the windings.

Review and summery of prime mover operation: In the prime mover he is connecting the windings in series (to 480V mode), but driving the motor only from 110V grid (operating at ¼ of the voltage) this series-connection further helps to reduce input current. The HI impedance and 3rd phase generation create a transformer alike operation were 1/10 power usage can be attained at no load.

Tips on tunning the prime mover (and An introduction to the alternator system) The PM is a parallel resonant circuit configuration (when connected to the alternator) When properly tuned, it should have a PF of as close to 1 as you can get. A PF of 1 is when the reactive components C&L cancel each others impedance and the apparent power = the true power. In a parallel resonant circuit the impedance as seen from the source goes to a high level (PM unloaded). When the PM is loaded more true power is dissipated so the impedance goes down. With the PM under load you have to retune the C box for best PF (closest to 1). For the alt circuit we are dealing with a series resonant circuit configuration. In a series resonant circuit the source sees minimum impedance at resonance.
The alternator side

Now we are connecting the RV prime mover with another identical motor to become the alternator side. As we need to achieve a parallel resonance condition. (or nearly such kind of resonance condition) in the prime mover (when the RV alternator part is loaded with needed load), so that the consumed power from the power supply will be minimal.

when we are loading the RV primary with some mechanical force (like loaded alternator for example), we are reducing the rotors speed, the revolving stator field will cut more of the squirrel cage windings, the transformer-kind-of loading effect increases and stator windings virtual resistance decreases. Your goal is to find a proper run cap for this proper loaded state of operation to achieve such state, that the consumed current from power source would be minimal.

When loading the RV prime mover, we will get closer to resonant state and the current that is consumed from the power supply, WILL NOT increase linearly with loading, but may even DECREASE due to the fact, that the overall system resistance might be several times bigger due to high Q non-linear effect.

The opposite is true to alternator part - there you will want to create maximum current in stator windings and also maximum voltage in stator windings and all this without causing TOO much drag to the prime mover. So basically with RV you need to tune 2 caps, the alternator cap and also the run cap. First use a bit bigger run cap, get the alternator to properly generate (by selecting/changing the value of alternator's vectoring cap) without bogging down the prime mover.

Also you need to do the tuning in the LOADED state, where some useful load is also connected to the alternator. So, when the alternator works and load is powered, then tune also the prime mover's run cap to the minimal value of consumed current from the power supply (of course you need to keep the alternator running too, so reducing the run cap too abruptly can cause the prime mover to lose too much of it's driving power and alternator might stop).

The essence of RV is not running on minimal current if idle. The essence is to have 2 motors connected, one as motor and the other as generator. A load will be connected to generator (having it's dual windings in parallel, thus low Q, motor part has it's dual windings in series => high Q, big inductivity) and only then the motor part's run cap is TUNED to MINIMAL MOTOR CURRENT WITH DESIRED LOAD.

Now we have a High Q narrowband motor part driving low Q wideband alternator part with desired load. Motor part will be tuned to resonance and this resonance will contribute a lot of mechanical power to the alternator part while consuming minimal power from the power supply. The motor part should have U voltage driving 4*U rated windings, this gives some headroom for resonant rise and resonant amplification effects without the irons saturating.

If run without load with the same run cap, the motor part will not have minimum current because Crun for loaded case is bigger than Crun for idle case. So in idle mode the RV primary's input current will be actually capacitive instead of inductive as with normal motors. But when loaded, the sweet point is attained where the PF=1 and resonant current amplification occurs and motor torque will be much bigger than normally expected with this low input voltage.

Another aspect with the RV is that the second motor (generator) can be set to semi-resonate at a reasonably hi virtual power. In contrast to the PM which is an example of a parallel resonance tuned to PF=1 under load, the generator exemplifies a series resonance and will have max current & minimal impedance when a cross phase cap is adjusted towards resonance. The virtual power in the alt vs the cap adjusted pf=1 power in the Prime Mover can easily exceed 10:1.. As theory goes a percentage of the virtual power can be extracted to a real load with out reflecting back to the PM

[Aaron]

simple questions for definition

Please humor me on these simple questions. I already know the answers, but lets get the ball rolling ok? If this is painful for any of you, skip the message please

[Aaron]

RV basic ABC

Looking at some of the basic stuff on the RV, there is a prime mover (input motor) and an alternator (the output motor used as a generator that gives some phenomenal gain if hooked up in a certain way).

Even without the output generator, for starters, can we accurately say that the input motor will run more efficient when hooked up in a certain way?

Therefore, by itself, standing alone, the "prime mover" runs extremely efficient and even more efficient beyond what just power factor correction does?

[linesrg]

Correction to an earlier posting by esa

esa,

You posted earlier about the failures Dan(?) had with his SCR's when he tested them.

He did indeed make such a post but he also found (and I'm sure posted) that if you increase the 9V battery in the test device he had to 18V then the test device works properly.

I can confirm this as I bought such a kit here in the UK. I have never known of an SCR to be non-functional from new anymore than any other semiconductor.

I look forward to PL investigating the RV issue. I broadly agree with his sentiments with regards to Hector as well. Personally I find most of Hector's post to be unintelligible. That is not to say he's wrong, he may possibly have the way forward to solve some of the world's energy problems but he needs to communicate it better.

Regards

Richard

[theremart]

Rotoverter

Great! I like it when super minds bend and warp time

As for the RV, I am now shifting all my energy to learning how to program pic controllers. I am frustrated as I am unable to get the computers to talk with either of the pics I have purchased. But, hard headed as ever, I will ask those that know to point me in the right direction.

The RV is still not out of my mind, but I think I will look at the EV gray group on yahoo, and ask around to see what works, and works well.

Ash, I am very interested in the next steps on modifying and inverter. I am thinking I would pay someone to modify one for me, think I will ask Kone if he could recommend someone to do this task. I will survey what it takes to make this modification, but since I have no scope, I am not sure I want to invest in a scope, then in a project that will take me much time to do. I am thinking I would rather pay someone to do this for me who has the skill.

Much to think about, and it is so good to see teamwork guys!

[ashtweth]

What a post thanks allot PL.

Aaron, know where your coming from, but this is a special case, so far using this "lingo" we have come up with circuits that behave as the lingo states , i know where your coming from, but with H, its best to go with the flow Bro.

I can see Aaron getting an RV, if you do and put it in another language its all still relative.

Ash

[esaruoho]

hi peter. i've notified konehead to have him approve you. hope this will result in some good stuff.

in regards me getting a response from others to your response to my question, i apologize, but my understanding is limited to dcoffset, resonance, and digital distortion (clipping) on audio. i can use software oscillators to create impulse plsations of whichever pulsewidth and frequency i want, but that just results in wonky sounds, not anything else. i've been looking at the RV thing for a while and hoping it to develop into something that is attractive to people, not just splintered and detractive.

here's an extra pair of nerves for the hurricane H's effect on evgray. he'lltry and wind you up but as long as you don't respond to the cussing, and you display a greater amount of courtesy + gentlemanlike behaviour than he (is easy, i know ), we'll maybe finally get somewhere.

i am really hoping that you and konzen will get tao have a good chat about this stuff. all i can do is throw keywords out that i see connected to the recovery, and then function as a relay-conduit.

if one day i could do these things with hand-size motors, safely ( but im afraid of simply just dying if i muck around with highvoltages - i have nothing but an interest in understanding this stuff and this frequency multiplication), and i can get someone whom i trust to assist, i'll definitely be looking at various solutions, but from a "power a laptop+synth" angle. sorry. i wish i could talk the jargon and know what im doing, but all i can do is look at you all talk and see the connections. other than that its all to me)

>The operating machines will tell me everything I need to know.

i really hope that you and konehead will walk up to a table and you guys will get down to the nittygritty. nothing but good can come out of this

[Peter Lindemann]

Esaruoho, Konehead, and Hector

Esaruoho,

My comments were directed to YOU, in response to your question to ME. That others may be viewing this thread is inevitable, because it is a public forum. However, the next time you answer my post with remarks from others, is the day I stop answering any of your questions.

Konehead,

I have taken up your offer and have resigned up to the EVGRAY Yahoo Group. My approval is waiting in the que. My Yahoo ID is PAL112358. Please approve me and call me on the phone. My number is in the comments box.

Hector,

I have NOT been a supporter of your project up until now. What has turned me OFF mostly has been my inability to make any sense of your writings, coupled with the multiple demonstrations of your ill temper. You seem to have very little understanding of how much this has affected other people's willingness to look seriously at your work.

From your own point of view, you don't need anyone else to approve of your work. Fine. You know what you have. Fine. Everybody else who doesn't see it is a jerk. Fine. That includes me. Fine. At least that is settled.

Be that as it may, you can be a genius in your own mind, but if you are unwilling to behave in a civil manner toward the rest of us, WE JUST WON'T CARE!! If your discoveries are important, then it is equally important that you do not project a persona that repels potential supporters. Regardless of what it feels like to be you, inside, the rest of us only see your BEHAVIOR. So far, as an observer from a distant country, I have viewed your behavior as atrocious, and your behavior has KEPT me disinterested in your work all this time!

I am going to look into this technology you have been promoting, starting now. But I am not going to put up with you projecting your anger and frustration at me because it has taken me SO LONG to become interested. You have a number of very intelligent people involved it this so far, but everyone is tip-toeing around, trying not to upset you, because no one wants your anger projected at them. Me? I don't care if you like me or not. My loyalty is to Science History and to Science Fact, as best as I understand them.

My goal will be to understand what this technology is and what it's historic roots are. At this point, my understanding is that it all relates back to Tesla's brushless induction motors, and his "Method of Conversion" processes for cracking Radiant Energy out of Resonant AC tank circuits. If you have found practical ways to accomplish this with off-the-shelf technology, then it is AWESOME. Secondly, I will try to develop a vocabulary that describes these methods in a way that is directly connected back to fully understood terms in electrical engineering. So far, I have not been able to derive these understandings from your writings, even if this is what you have been trying to convey. Since I do not understand your writings, I will not rely on them. The operating machines will tell me everything I need to know.

I am going to connect up with Konehead. He seems to have a fairly decent grasp of what your technology is. I have known him for 7 years. He lives relatively close to me (I think) so I can go and see his working models (I hope). In the meantime, please leave me alone and let me learn in my own way. Thank you for your understanding and patience.

Peter

[Aaron]

Hi Peper,

What I said doesn't have anything to do with the validity of any technology. It has to do with language and that is it. I can accept people saying "zero point energy" as a term for "free energy" type technologies...this term has made its way into the language far enough and is accepted as such..that is one thing but to erroneously say where the term "zero point energy" came from saying it comes from the 0 line in the AC wave, that is another and is incorrect.

Same as the term "overunity," which is an oxymoron, but it has made its way into the language deep enough that it has become accepted as being a common term to describe something that has over 1.0 COP.

Also with over 100% efficient...there is no such thing but there is over 1.0 COP...but when people refer to something as being over 100% efficient...that too has become a commonly accepted concept showing more out than the operator puts in...even though it is technically incorrect.

Just like many people think when they are capturing the collapsing field from a coil it is capturing back emf, but it is not. There is no more back emf when the circuit is disconnected and what comes back is the spike, which is not the back emf, which doesn't even exist anymore (since the circuit was disconnected).

When people refer to these things like this, I get what they are saying even though I know they may not be technically correct and they may not even know themselves the correct distinction...that is fine.

I'm very open to what others are saying and can look at anything with brand new eyes as if I never even heard the word electricity or anything else for that matter.

I simply believe that if everyone started to get on the same page with the same language on all the distinctions in this field, we can communicate and figure out what the heck we are all trying to say.

Anyway, I look at this thread on the RV stuff every day to see what I can learn from it.

[peper10]

Aaron!!!

By saying this,you don't disclame or bring something new to this!!
If he bring something that might WORK,there a bunch of guys
that gonna tried this..
We just start to discover how it works,and there's not so much
people who REALY know that!!
BTW ! The bedini sg and the other stuff that we work on,is it called
by commun people...:ZERO ENERGY Is it?????
I dont want to approuve or disprouve nobody here!! I just said
that,maybe we might take a look to it and see if it work???
You know ;Every road go to ROME ,like the proverb said!!!
The more and more we learn about this,the more we gonna start
to think....but first,we must IGNATE our MIND ..

REGARDS!!!!!!!!

peper10

[Aaron]

zero point energy

Zero point energy comes from....

Bring something to absolute zero and motion is supposed to stop...but it doesn't...there is still energetic movement... that is where the term zero point energy comes from....not from the zero current 0 point from AC.

[esaruoho]

hector responds to peter lindemann recovery post

i was asked to post this to the thread, for peter lindemann.

Important: READ my comments within
Hector ...


--"esa juhani ruoho" <esaruoho@...
> newer circuit schematic for the neon peak recovery circuit?, please?

Given LONNNGGG time ago ......

Use Light dimmer circuit (2) remove triac use SCR and a pass diode
in series with the bilateral switching diode Make 2 units one positive
& one negative for full wave recovery ,
_
It will switch at TOP of charge slope but not before ...as neon does.

(now for the other comentary ...)


> ---
> Dear esaruoho,
>
> Thank you for this post and the link to the "neon peak recovery
> circuit". THIS APPROACH HAS MERIT!!!!! Going back to what I posted
> about Tesla's "Method of Conversion", clipping the VOLTAGE PEAK of a
> resonant tank created by an AC generator feeding a Capacitive load,
IS the first method he discusses. The trick is to clip the top of the
> voltage rise JUST AS THE CURRENT DROPS TO THE ZERO POINT. In a 60
> cycle system, that gives you about a millisecond to clip.
__________________________________________________ ___________________
Turn on within 90/360 R 1/360 + - R arc seconds of 1/120S top half
sine peak .
__________________________________________________ ________________

Capacitor in a tesla coil is Tailored to ARC gap Within PEAK of
resonance in a HV 60CPS LC setup ( Raivo got Corrected teslacoil
plans and I posted how to built a 10 to 40 KV tunable sliding
capacitor long ago to test this out ,

Using 3 glass plates 14x18 inches and 8x10 inch aluminum foil plates
the plates are tuned by sliding and offseting them to peak trafo
resonance ...

I can built 50 million volt 3 phase delta or Wye teslacoils (Easy).
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> Under these circumstances, this system WOULD tap Radiant Energy
> (voltage without current) just as Hector (apparently) claims. SIC*

What Hector CLAIMS and has being TESTED by engineers independently
is the WAY to CAPTURE radiant energy , AS RADIANT ENERGY IS RF and
can be NODE split using diodes as HOT carrier DIODES in FULL resonant
conditions or semy resonant ones .

(Just as Hector apparently claims.)

The 2 trigger systems are the best & more simpler to do by anyone .
With off the shelf circuits HACKS ...

PARTY strobelight circuits (Neon trigger )
Light Dimmers Downslope SCR (triac) trigering device (Switching diode
triger)

Its self driving ,simple parts , and as is PUBLIC aplication of
ALREADY expired PATENTS circuitry & NEW PUBLIC domain aplication of
SUCH to RADIANT energy ROTOVERTER RESEARCH it is UNLAWFULL and Inlegal
to even trying to PATENT the stuff (public sinse 1999 ..)

Keep copy , search old info , verify information ...

Thanks

Hector ~_~ !

from Yahoo! Groups (there was a bit more diatribe three on it)

lets move on!