Roto Verter

[theremart]

Mr Ash,

Hey master of the RV....

What is the normal horsepower a 5 HP motor put out after being converted to a rotoverter? And how did you measure this, I noticed that Kone's prony brake was for small motors.

Thanks!

[ashtweth]

Hi Peter , Aron et all.

Thanks Peter, you have made a very valid point. Sure, dont worry Peter can do no wrong here, and nether can any body, it just comes down to the RV language and practical terms. Unfortunately Hector is not the best at practical terms some times, but does make up in other areas. He is not the easiest person to get a direct answer in the individuals language, but thats only the way he is able to explain things.

He is sort of "ahead",in his thinking and it takes allot of reading of his stuff over and over again to understand it. Sad but true. J is only beginning to grasp it too.

He models his experiments of RF protocol, now RF may not be RE to some, but to H it is and he focus's this thinking and circuit concepts based on how standing waves, wave propagation etc happen and make a comparison with RE's behavior.

Now whilst this may be bad, and or good for some, (Sure i understand Peter), and we would also love to hear about Tesla's methods of extracting reactive power, we were kind of hoping you were gonna hi jack this thread with that

We have found the best way to run with this information is to accredit hector and follow his thinking and TEST it, this led to the Neon extraction circuit and the Trans-verter concepts.

Peter is right, and so is H, we really need to get practical language and concepts of the RV/RF/RE comparison and mimic behavior under lab conditions THEN theorize. This then can be formulated into a evidence based fact book and clearer presentation.

Unfortunately We are stuck with this info in the mean time, but get an RV, get a Frequency drive and an extraction circuit and go for the reactive power, doesn't matter if its RF/RE or what ever. I think the theory can come later after the practical applications come through.

[theremart]

Thermart,
Try to find the lowest start up draw by adding or subtracting your start capacitance. If you decade box is wired like most I have seen, your run caps will add to the start capacitance. Start capacitance is not that crucial as far as tunning but too much or too little and you will have a much larger and longer start up draw.

When you do a prony test try to tune the capacitance to the lowest draw. I think Kone just did it without re tunning and he had more mechanical HP out then power in. I had to tune mine. I was latter able to get better results then what I have posted on forums.

I think a 5hp motor will be less then 2.5 hp. Ash would know for sure.

Jason

Thanks Jason..

[jason]

start caps

Thermart,
Try to find the lowest start up draw by adding or subtracting your start capacitance. If you decade box is wired like most I have seen, your run caps will add to the start capacitance. Start capacitance is not that crucial as far as tunning but too much or too little and you will have a much larger and longer start up draw.

When you do a prony test try to tune the capacitance to the lowest draw. I think Kone just did it without re tunning and he had more mechanical HP out then power in. I had to tune mine. I was latter able to get better results then what I have posted on forums.

I think a 5hp motor will be less then 2.5 hp. Ash would know for sure.

Jason

[theremart]

RV... more than a motor home

Ok, now I have a RV, I am thinking next step. I guess that would be to get this RV working from my batteries.

Just to double check things, here is my start caps ( I have 3 of them ) hooked up in parallel..

64-77 MFD 220 VAC START CAPACITOR

Surplus Center Item Detail

Again the way I started it, is I had all the capacitors on, then pluged into directly the motor....

I am wondering should I have another switch past the capacitors so I could first charge the capacitors, then flip the switch on to the motor...

[Peter Lindemann]

Thanks for the Link

Peter,

"If there is more to the RV than Power Factor Correction, then I am interested in learning about it"
Here is a start: http://panacea-bocaf.org/files/RE-OU-v6_1.pdf

"If there is more to the RV than Power Factor Correction, then I am interested in learning about it. So far, I have seen NO EVIDENCE to support this idea."

So do like the rest of us and read a little and BUILD IT. I am sure David's neon charger would be no problem for you. Have you seen Brains looped Lawn mower? How about Kones OU Prony test? How about my OU prony test? Have you read about Norman's OU test? Transverter?

"The Reactive Power circulating in the LC tank circuits can be converted to Real Power, using methods discovered by Tesla, but that is another matter entirely."

So, by your own words you think there might be something more then PFC but the you say there is not, which is it?

"Anytime you can run a piece of equipment with an 80% energy savings, its worth doing, and these techniques CAN DO THAT!!!!"

If it's worth doing, have you tried it?


"JARGON terms" yes they seem to be for most people. You can start learn what they mean here: http://panacea-bocaf.org/files/RE-OU-v6_1.pdf

Rv is simple to try, hard to understand. Tricky to get OU. Not imposible. Some motors can have OU with PM alone, others need an alternator or PM rotor.

Jason

Jason,

Thanks for the link. I have seen this paper before, but it was good to see it again. In my OPINION, this paper represents what is WRONG with the entire RV project, as I understand it. The author has simply "cut and pasted" text from various sources, without attribution to the real authors, and spun a yarn of Biblical Proportion! A simple case in point is found in section 2.2 on Page 4. This text is lifted VERBATUM from MY WEBSITE, with the addition of the paragraph about Hector. I see no footnotes, here! So, I know who wrote most of that section. I see other paragraphs with huge sections lifted from Tom Bearden's work, as well.

If you have seen my DVD Tesla's Radiant Energy, I quote Tesla as saying that RE is Longitudinal Waves of compressed ELECTRO-STATIC potential. To equate this with RF (radio frequency transverse electromagnetic waves) is historically inaccurate.

I do not wish to put too fine a point on this, but Dan Combine ("author" of this paper) has no idea what he is talking about.

Tell you what. I am going to bow out of this thread and let you guys move on with your experiments. There IS a lot to learn in this field and I only want to encourage that learning. I do not want to be a focus of dissent.

Best wishes,

Peter

[Aaron]

RV doc

Please keep this forum civilized

I started reading the document...I do not believe radiant is RF, but the RF may be an effect or symptom of the presence Radiant potential but is not the radiant itself. Anyway, that is my opinion and I'm only 5 pages into it.

Anyway, it is late and I'll continue reading later.

[jason]

OU-RE v6.1

Peter,

"If there is more to the RV than Power Factor Correction, then I am interested in learning about it"
Here is a start: http://panacea-bocaf.org/files/RE-OU-v6_1.pdf

"If there is more to the RV than Power Factor Correction, then I am interested in learning about it. So far, I have seen NO EVIDENCE to support this idea."

So do like the rest of us and read a little and BUILD IT. I am sure David's neon charger would be no problem for you. Have you seen Brains looped Lawn mower? How about Kones OU Prony test? How about my OU prony test? Have you read about Norman's OU test? Transverter?

"The Reactive Power circulating in the LC tank circuits can be converted to Real Power, using methods discovered by Tesla, but that is another matter entirely."

So, by your own words you think there might be something more then PFC but the you say there is not, which is it?

"Anytime you can run a piece of equipment with an 80% energy savings, its worth doing, and these techniques CAN DO THAT!!!!"

If it's worth doing, have you tried it?


"JARGON terms" yes they seem to be for most people. You can start learn what they mean here: http://panacea-bocaf.org/files/RE-OU-v6_1.pdf

Rv is simple to try, hard to understand. Tricky to get OU. Not imposible. Some motors can have OU with PM alone, others need an alternator or PM rotor.

Jason

[Peter Lindemann]

Open to Learning More

Hi Guys on the surface the RV looks like what Peter described and he is right to a degree, how ever the concept is more use of impedance matching and frequency adjusting. The concept of the RV is not just power factor correction or the Steinmetz circuit.

With the RV we do the same as the Steinmetz circuit., except for ONE MAJOR DIFFERENCE, it is run at 1/4 rated voltage which makes the huge difference of correct impedance match,broad banding, magnetic amplification, rotary effect, etc. In addition we do tuning to PF=1 in RV, and PF=0 in alternator. The end results are not like a Steinmetz circuit.

We do a good job so far of explaining this in the compilations,
Roto Verter

it's very clear in there. There are experiments we have done which are based on more then just PF . But I think we need to do a better explanation and video as we have given Peter and prob others the wrong idea.We have a new video coming which will clear all this up.

regards
Ash

Ash,

Do please excuse me, but what does "broad banding", "magnetic amplification" and "rotary effect" mean in relation to running induction motors? In my world, these are just JARGON terms, that mean nothing! If you want these terms to mean something, then you MUST define these terms for the rest of us!

If there is more to the RV than Power Factor Correction, then I am interested in learning about it. So far, I have seen NO EVIDENCE to support this idea.

Lowering the input voltage AND Power Factor Correcting are still ordinary methods that have been around for 100 years. PFC increases the efficiency of the motor. Lowering the input voltage does not increase the efficiency of the motor, but it will make the motor run COOLER.

What am I missing here, Ash?

Peter

[ashtweth]

Hi Guys on the surface the RV looks like what Peter described and he is right to a degree, how ever the concept is more use of impedance matching and frequency adjusting. The concept of the RV is not just power factor correction or the Steinmetz circuit.

With the RV we do the same as the Steinmetz circuit., except for ONE MAJOR DIFFERENCE, it is run at 1/4 rated voltage which makes the huge difference of correct impedance match,broad banding, magnetic amplification, rotary effect, etc. In addition we do tuning to PF=1 in RV, and PF=0 in alternator. The end results are not like a Steinmetz circuit.

We do a good job so far of explaining this in the compilations,
Roto Verter

it's very clear in there. There are experiments we have done which are based on more then just PF . But I think we need to do a better explanation and video as we have given Peter and prob others the wrong idea.We have a new video coming which will clear all this up.

regards
Ash

[Peter Lindemann]

Tuning Single Phase Motors

Peter,
Placing the proper cap parallel to the line in on a single phase motor is not really an “RV” conversion. To Rv a small motor you need to lower the voltage in by approx. ¼ of the motor rating, then tune with capacitance.

Jason

Jason,

YES!!! Induction motors operate by locking the rotor to the rotating magnetic field of the stator. Most loads do not require the magnetic field to be at full strength to achieve the desired mechanical power output. Lowering the input voltage to the motor with a Variac is a simple test anyone can do to prove this principle. Most drill press motors will run quite well on 60 volts input. Cutting the Voltage in half also cuts the current in half, which cuts the Power input by 75%! Once the motor is Power Factor Corrected for this voltage, the motor will appear to run on NEARLY NOTHING!!!! And of course, that is the point.

I applaud Hector for encouraging people to run these experiments, but the RotoVerter is an EFFICIENCY technique, not an OU technique. The Reactive Power circulating in the LC tank circuits can be converted to Real Power, using methods discovered by Tesla, but that is another matter entirely.

When you run these systems on Inverters from batteries, other factors come into play. Most inexpensive inverters produce a wave form called a "Modified Sine Wave". This is actually a 50% duty cycle square wave that rises to the true RMS voltage of the system, which is 160 Volts for a 120 Volts AC system. The LC reaction to this is similar to being supplied with sine waves, but not exactly the same. The loading on the supply side is pretty intense on the inverter and the batteries, as it draws large surges followed by null times, especially on start up to charge all the capacitors. You need some expensive equipment to see all of these things happening, like a current probe on a digital oscilloscope.

Anytime you can run a piece of equipment with an 80% energy savings, its worth doing, and these techniques CAN DO THAT!!!!

Calling it "RVing" a motor is a little misleading, however. That's my personal opinion.

Teach as many people about these things as will listen, and keep up the great work.

Peter

[jason]

You are right...

Peter,
Placing the proper cap parallel to the line in on a single phase motor is not really an “RV” conversion. To Rv a small motor you need to lower the voltage in by approx. ¼ of the motor rating, then tune with capacitance.

Jason

[jason]

Power Factor Correction Hector

Peter,
I don't think I see the cold water. When you use DC into an inverter you take power factor out. Measure DC volts and DC amps in, no power factor to correct? I have done many tests with small and large motors. A few caps and people can save money. It's simple stuff and you can use un-modified off the shelf parts.


I don't think anyone has claimed putting caps on motor windings was invented by Hector. He did disclose the Roto Verter which is much more then a motor with a few caps to get a 3 phase to run on single phase. I don't think it is an RV until the motor is properly tunned.

Jason

[Peter Lindemann]

Power Factor Correction

After you get a hang of it and want to try something (for energy saveings) you can RV single phase motors as well. My drill press is Rv'd, it has an old 1/3hp motor. Draws about 100 watts (while drilling wood)and no noticable defrence. I don't rember the exact figures but it used to use around 540 watts (no load).


Jason

Jason,

Placing the correct capacitor in parallel with the windings of an induction motor is NOT something that was invented by Hector! This has been standard practice in the industry for over 100 years. It's called Power Factor Correction. This is why I suggested Mart purchase the proper meter so he could see all of these things.

I don't wish to throw cold water on the RotoVerter, but the technique is really NOTHING more than Power Factor Correction combined with a method to run a 3-phase motor on single phase power. ANY induction motor REQUIRES a certain amount of REACTIVE POWER to run properly. When you purchase this reactive power from the utility, it costs a lot. It is just as easy to PRODUCE your own reactive power LOCALLY with a capacitor in parallel with the windings. This saves a lot of money and lowers the total amount of power purchased from the utility to run the motor. This is the savings you experience.

Peter

[jason]

RV single phase

After you get a hang of it and want to try something (for energy saveings) you can RV single phase motors as well. My drill press is Rv'd, it has an old 1/3hp motor. Draws about 100 watts (while drilling wood)and no noticable defrence. I don't rember the exact figures but it used to use around 540 watts (no load).


Jason