Roto Verter

[ashtweth]

Mart thanks for the update, check out that comp i posted, remove that Fan and grease those bearings, you will drop that figure almost in HALF. The torque may not seem like much but i have Drilled stainless steal and will show you in my new video.

Ash

[Aaron]

power factor

Hi Mart,

When doing those readings, would you mind posting the power factor readings on the meter too?

[theremart]

Hi Mart,

When doing those readings, would you mind posting the power factor readings on the meter too?

It was .02 Killowatt if that is what you mean...

I was thinking if only I could find a way to get this motor to produce heat, which seems really doable I would turn off the oil heater. That is why I was so interested in caviation of water.

[Aaron]

Power Factor

Hi Mart,

If you go through the options on the Kill A Watt meter, there is a power factor reading..should be something like .95 or something like that. If it is measuring the input and the motor is running very efficient, it should be up high like that. 1.0 would be "perfect" like a resistive load for example.

If there is some radiant energy effect on the output where you might have current and no voltage for example (instead of voltage potential without current), you might have a 0.02 PF but I doubt that would be the power factor on the input from the wall.

[Peter Lindemann]

Power Factor

Ok, I took Peter's advice and I bought myself a kill -a watt meter.

What I found really surprized me.

The rotoverter ->

I was able to use only two caps to start the rotoverter but I had to have all the run caps on to do so.


It took about 9.6 to 11.5 Amps to start the motor.

Then after I shut off the start cap it dropped down to 2.46 Amps.
it was turning at 3512 RPM.
257 Watts is what the Kill -a Watt was reporting.
122.0 Volts supply voltage


I then hooked up the meter to my oil heater for a comparison.

It was pulling 12 Amps...


Then my fancy Vitamix blender at full speed 11 Amps.
( normally about 29,000 RPM ) this baby MOOOOOVES

----------------------------------------

I have not done the other means of improving performance yet, that is oiling the bearings, removing the fan etc.... But just an update...

Still have not got a battery to start it. I did some testing it stops when it draws 2 amps from source battery. I beleive I am tripping the inverter before it can pull the full amount... The inverter is rated at 2500 W 5000W peak.... I am thinking something is very wrong here I should be getting more out of the batteries than I have... my guess is to point the finger at the inverter.

Mart,

Yes, that "surprise" is your education moving rapidly in the direction of REALITY!!!!

Your Kill-A-Watt meter is over 99% accurate for all 60 hz, single phase power situations within its 1800 watt capacity. So, the Power Factor readout is there, if you push the right button. It will be a number between 0 (zero) and 1 (one), usually a decimal fraction, like .85 or something, and a little "PF" will show up on the screen.

In fact, the data you posted here says, that the WATTS reading is 257, and your voltage reading is 122 volts @ a current of 2.46 amps. So, the math says this: 122 volts X 2.46 amps = 300.12 VA. Real Watts is 257, so PF equals watts/VA = .85 PF. This should be verified by the meter. If you have to resort to (heaven forbid) reading the DIRECTIONS, we won't think less of you!

My preliminary suggestion is that you can still trim up the capacitor system to reduce input power still further. With the meter in the PF mode, keep switching caps in and out until you see a PF reading of .97 or better.

This is the point at which your capacitors are supplying all of the "reactive power" your motor needs, and the grid is supplying all of the "real power" the motor needs. The cost savings in running any electric motor this way, is that you do not ask the GRID to supply you with any reactive power.

Great Work

Peter

[theremart]

Ok Ok Ok

Now I know what you are refering too.

Today I feel VERY blessed because I got a 1,000 amp battery ( commercial grade for $10.00 ) and at 12V, and RUNS THE RV with zero problem......

Hurray!

Now for what you asked for and more.

To power the inverter and the motor it took:

16 amps to start the motor Then floated 14.0 to 14.5 Amps

Battery starting voltage was 12.6 V

From the Killa watt

112.V

2.56 Amp

262 Watt

PF = .91

It is great that I can start this motor without using Grid powered AC! I can't imagine what a 1,000 Cold Amp batter will look like after it is conditioned on the SSG

Peter, I hope reality is good I may be getting 1/4 the power but I am thinking this baby sure could turn a generator easy

But the bad news to me is that my other batteries don't have much guts to them..... Oh well onward, ...... Ash and Peter, thanks for watching over me

[ashtweth]

Hi Mart and Peter. The real fun happens when you put a Frequency drive on there. You can raise the Frequency then LOWER the capacitance, Peter will be able to explain why that is needed as its (i think) due to the resistance of the caps and higher frequency.

Then you get more then 1/4HP OUT but your still in .91 PF! mode!

We did a test with this fancy inverter which you can find in the compilation (energy saver) and raised the freq, the RV mode remained the same.

If you have a powerful enough inverter drive, (and didn't melt the slip) you could get close to the rated HP out of that motor you have and still PF correct it to the needs of the load.

Now this fancy inverter is just right for the RV. It has an on board secondary battery that is about 4amps, (which is around what the RV takes when idle)

When un loaded(variable load) it uses the on board bat, When you load the RV it charges from the BEMF. All open sourced and in the comps, if you look for the Frequency Gen VIDEO test on the RV page , you can see the PM DC motor we used in the Freq drive test. We didn't have enough Freq to raise it up to 5,000 RPM to get power out of the PM DC gen, but we are building one for that ATM and will do the hard work for you guys and post.

Now Aaron was asking me about whats the best and recommended and comparisons of comps etc, i will be posting here if Mart lets me the recommended advanced stuff and the most promising, i have to put it all in a compilation for all and will get on to it in the next week.

Aaron we need 98 hours in the day, can you write a book on how to do that next Bro

[theremart]

Hi Mart and Peter. The real fun happens when you put a Frequency drive on there. You can raise the Frequency then LOWER the capacitance, Peter will be able to explain why that is needed as its (i think) due to the resistance of the caps and higher frequency.

Then you get more then 1/4HP OUT but your still in .91 PF! mode!

We did a test with this fancy inverter which you can find in the compilation (energy saver) and raised the freq, the RV mode remained the same.

If you have a powerful enough inverter drive, (and didn't melt the slip) you could get close to the rated HP out of that motor you have and still PF correct it to the needs of the load.

Now this fancy inverter is just right for the RV. It has an on board secondary battery that is about 4amps, (which is around what the RV takes when idle)

When un loaded(variable load) it uses the on board bat, When you load the RV it charges from the BEMF. All open sourced and in the comps, if you look for the Frequency Gen VIDEO test on the RV page , you can see the PM DC motor we used in the Freq drive test. We didn't have enough Freq to raise it up to 5,000 RPM to get power out of the PM DC gen, but we are building one for that ATM and will do the hard work for you guys and post.

Now Aaron was asking me about whats the best and recommended and comparisons of comps etc, i will be posting here if Mart lets me the recommended advanced stuff and the most promising, i have to put it all in a compilation for all and will get on to it in the next week.

Aaron we need 98 hours in the day, can you write a book on how to do that next Bro

I was talking with a friend of mine, he worked at GE motors for years built motors, he was telling me on airplanes they use different frequencies to run the motors there. He was telling me they made higher quality motors for airplaines cause... they just gotta work. Got me to thinking that Hector used to work on aircraft ... wondered if there was a connection. Anyways.. I am very interested in getting a modified inverter.

I was at the local "Harbor Frieght" and I saw a generator there with power outlets, it required only 1500 RPM to generate power, and had two outlets built in. That seemed very tempting to me to simply couple this prime mover to this ready made generator. It was $150.00 if I recall.. oh wait this is the web, let me find it..

Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

Well it was something like that... Actually that one is 3600 RPM... very close to what my motor is turning..... Very tempting to me... But the other one only needed 1500 RPM...

Am I crazy, but would this work?

[ashtweth]

Hi Mart.

There are 3 guys i know of who have that gen and have RV'd a 40HP prime mover (on the EVGRAY group). They are still working on their custom inverters for it (which you will need). I know the principle will work, how? i have tested a DC PM gen on a prime mover and adjusted the Frequency and got more torque for the same energy.

I don't expect the draw figure to remain on there as the original value but i do expect it to remain PF corrected and the most torque for the least energy. What happens under load? you adjust your caps again and get less.


You could probably make your own generator for less Mart, i would look at the Fisher and Paykel ones (re enforce the plastic with steal), and or a PM generator on there which you could probably make for less then that HF genset.

Ash

[theremart]

RE: the generator...

Hi Mart.

There are 3 guys i know of who have that gen and have RV'd a 40HP prime mover (on the EVGRAY group). They are still working on their custom inverters for it (which you will need). I know the principle will work, how? i have tested a DC PM gen on a prime mover and adjusted the Frequency and got more torque for the same energy.

I don't expect the draw figure to remain on there as the original value but i do expect it to remain PF corrected and the most torque for the least energy. What happens under load? you adjust your caps again and get less.


You could probably make your own generator for less Mart, i would look at the Fisher and Paykel ones (re enforce the plastic with steal), and or a PM generator on there which you could probably make for less then that HF genset.

Ash

To me it seems simple to loop this ... Start with battery, generator starts then
switch power to generator. Is the output on this generator regulated? Don't know if you played with it directly.

But.. can also see coupling to another motor.. I just am trying to count the cost for best investment. .... I am looking outside at my large air conditioner, thinking man if I only had this motor in that unit for this summer.

Mart

[theremart]

More thoughts.

Ok...

I have 90V AC coming off the caps when I run the motor, i understand I can take that and charge batteries with it with a Bridge rectifier, and a transformer.

Makes me wish I had a HUGE Solid state SSG that I could charge all 8 of my batteries hooked in series.... so I would not have to have an transformer. ( to cut energy loss )

I am wondering if I pull this power off to charge batteries is this going to kill my power to the RV.... hmmm.

[Peter Lindemann]

Off Topic

To me it seems simple to loop this ... Start with battery, generator starts then
switch power to generator. Is the output on this generator regulated? Don't know if you played with it directly.

But.. can also see coupling to another motor.. I just am trying to count the cost for best investment. .... I am looking outside at my large air conditioner, thinking man if I only had this motor in that unit for this summer.

Mart

Mart,

As for saving money on your air conditioner this summer, you have everything you need. Just plug the air conditioner into your Kill-A-Watt meter, and read the Power Factor reading. The machine has a compressor and a fan motor. Put the right capacitors on each of these systems (inside the unit) until the PF is .98. You'll save a lot of money!

Power Factor Correction is universally applicable to AC induction equipment, not just 3-phase motors like the RV.

Peter

[theremart]

Mart,

As for saving money on your air conditioner this summer, you have everything you need. Just plug the air conditioner into your Kill-A-Watt meter, and read the Power Factor reading. The machine has a compressor and a fan motor. Put the right capacitors on each of these systems (inside the unit) until the PF is .98. You'll save a lot of money!

Power Factor Correction is universally applicable to AC induction equipment, not just 3-phase motors like the RV.

Peter

Very interesting.... and if I get this down, I could also charge batteries when my AC runs. Might as well recover that energy. I am thinking Solid state SSG so I don't have to worry with a wheel....

Mart

[ashtweth]

Peter is right as usual

We did a video to show this.
Basic RotoVerter demonstration on an air conditioner

[theremart]

Rotoverter pitstop

Results after Cleaning bearings and adding duralube oil instead.

Amps 1.07
Volts 123.6
Watts 132
PF .98 to .99PF ( I tunned it a bit )
3509 RPM ( free spinning )


When running on Battery it pulls an average of 3.5 to 4.2 Amp at 12.2V

WOOOOOWW