Roto Verter

[sykavy]

Sykavy,

Excellent!! The first link is relevant here and in the EMS forum. There is a lot to learn here for beginners as far as how the different GEOMETRIES affect the behavior of different motors. This is a primary theme in my EMS DVD.

The second link seems to be limited to Members Only. I do not encourage pirating restricted material, so i guess the rest of us can't view this, but at least you can see that Switched Reluctance Motors are very powerful and rising in popularity.

Thanks for the links.

Peter

Sorry I posted it at school so maybe I have access that others dont but here are some relevant quotes from The American Society of Mechanical Engineers in Febuary 1998 (blue are quotes):

"Locomotives in the early 19th century were the first machines to use variable-switched-reluctance (VSR) motors. "They did not perform satisfactorily," said George Holling, president of Advanced Motion Controls (AMC) in Princeton, Wis., "and they soon faded into obscurity."


But with the advent of new and better switching controls they are making a come back:

"The Department of Defense has pursued VSR-motor applications aggressively. The motors are now used in such military applications as generators for turbine engines and pump motors for jet fighters. Military planners and researchers liked the technology mainly because of their high reliability...."


"A four-phase, 1/2-horsepower variable-switched-reluctance motor, used in applications such as electric motor scooters and industrial fans, can run at more than 90-percent efficiency"

"A barrier to the rapid commercialization of VSR motors has been that few engineers are trained to perform the exacting and specialized design the technology requires."


They said that SR motors are durable, reliable, and could be improved with time.

"With the appropriate switching and energization of the stator coils, the rotor can be encouraged to rotate at any desired speed and torque.... It can maintain higher torque and efficiency over broader speed ranges than is possible with other advanced variable-speed systems....The optimal waveforms needed to excite a VSR motor...are typically the result of a fixed voltage applied to the motor coils at predetermined rotor angles. Such waveforms can be achieved at virtually any speed....


There are other pros and cons but efficiency is not one of them. By recycling the counter emf what was a draw back in typical AC/DC motors can be used as an added benefit in SR motors.

"VSR motors are not without their drawbacks, however. The most significant downside is the acoustic noise and large vibrations often caused by the motor's high pulsating magnetic flux."

"Another limitation is torque ripple. It can be difficult to give VSR motors a smooth torque profile...If torque ripple is of primary concern, the best alternative might be a permanent magnet motor instead."



"VSR motors work with relatively small air gaps. If the shaft is off-center, unbalanced tangential forces come into play, so shafts and bearing systems generally need to be of a higher quality than with other motors. Various motor designers are working on designs to widen the air gap."

"The adoption and proliferation of VSR motors is about 15 years behind brushless motors," said Dan Jones, a Thousand Oaks, Calif., consultant to the motion-control industry. "However, it appears that they are experiencing the same acceleration curve as permanent magnet motor. Although they will never be ideally suited for all applications, they are emerging as a viable competitor to ac induction motors and permanent magnet motors."

Those were some main points from the article.

PS here is something interesting the writer described the rotor with teeth. Teeth could make for stronger torque.
"Basically, the motor is a rotor and stator with a coil winding in the stator. The rotor, which consists of a laminated permeable material with teeth, is a passive device with no coil winding or permanent magnets."

[Aaron]

reluctance motor

Check out the Johann Grander thread. It is on a reluctance motor. I knew people who visited him in Austria and said they saw a giant version that runs itself and generates enough power to power the entire village. I don't know how accurate that is.

[ashtweth]

Hi all,

Okay, sorry. I haven't had time to keep up ATM. Now peter thanks for the comments i happen to like you too. How ever in this practice we are yet to have a research center with qualified validated results, This is what i am pushing for. The engineers who put the comps data together have done it by their lab and meters and tests. I am working towards a more formal presentation, yes i said i would clean it up for YOU. But i cannot produce this over night. I understand what your saying and have always moved towards it, hence why you have what you have in the comps so far

The Drill and water pump is sufficient to suffice for now by showing the DRAW comparisons with the NORMAL 3/4 HP motors. Dont forget to add in a higher rated motor run at 1/4 of the voltage with a Freq Gen and tune the caps if the load changes then you have the non waste full and or energy saving RV.(Not just a Variac run Drill).

The advanced circuits are being up graded/Tested. Don't forget what RV mode is in with a Frequency Gen. You are leaving it out. Also there are many different ways the RV is different (in practice not principle)to your variac way, when you load your Drill with 1/4 of your voltage, you DONT TUNE IT WITH CAPS UNDER CONSTANT LOAD CONDITIONS. The RV energy saving = 1/4 frequency driven and tuned with caps CONSTANTLY to the needs of the load.

The Advanced RLC way is different ofcause. This is the Rv energy saving way, you call it not wasting energy and is fine, we call it more efficient, but who cares about semantics Peter . We are a forums of tinkers and not at the noble prize place yet . Adding the caps to the needs of the load and frequency driving a higher rated motor to the RV comp author engineers, is impedance matching, matching the source to the needs of the load, and the advanced circuits are about that. Again i stated in the early posts not to let this [Jargon] GET to you, just if you need to understand it, then ask away, and l clean up a version for YOU.

The Engineers who have done it can tell you it saves ALLOT of energy that's enough for me to publish what there is in the compilations. Again If we had your drill under a variac, with just adjusting the voltage that would be fine but is not RV mode.With the RV, we would run a bigger motor at 1/4 of the voltage, Freq drive it and tune it TO THE NEEDS OF THE LOAD , at every load we do. Slightly different.

I am sorry we don't have a research center with grants and equipment yet tailored specifically for alternative and suppressed energy . I am putting together demos with our press and grant, sponsors for this to happen(under my non profit org i work for).Yes mart if your near peter you could take him an RV to do the research i have asked Koneheadx to work with peter and show him.

Also for Peter since i was being BARKED at

>Do the science correctly, and you will see what it is. Then report the experimental results to the rest of us, in a language we understand. Then we will know the facts as well.

What we have done can be verified by any one given our tools, We don't have a university lab to do this at this time, so this is not needed constructive criticism at this time (i am aware of this) we are all aware of what can convince skeptics who don't build, perhaps you should build it your self and experiment :").

Trafo = transformers, a FAQ is available in the EVGRAY forum showing these terms.
Plus a "single phase SCh in the energy saving comp" = we have a single phase RV SCHematic in the energy saving compilation

Ash

Ps, and ye i am aware peter probabaly is foaming at the mouth and steam is coming out of his ears at this time., but be kind to your students and fans , its the best they can do for now)

[theremart]

If I lived by Peter

Well, he would have no rest from questions Well, it is sorta like that now

Yes I live in Fort Wayne, IN, Not sure where Peter is, but would love to have him do the measurements.

Thanks for your well thought out reply Peter, we have the same goals of finding the best and simplest methods of increasing efficiency, and getting the most for the energy put in, and having a common way to express that.

Mart

[ashtweth]

>But the economics of replacing all single-phase motors with large 3-phase motors that are wired this way, and remounting them in your appliances MAY NOT be worth all of the time, money and effort simply for the energy saved.

Hi Peter,

I have to disagree, i know some one who runs Hydroponic pumps on his farm(s), He saves 3000 dollars a quarter since running his 1HP pumps in RV mode, the bigger motors have paved off in a year and now saves him energy.'(remember our planet) . It also saves him MONEY due to how much energy they save on a large scale. In fact he runs SOME of them solar now, as some of them have to idle at different times, before he could not do this.

Your comments might be mathematical to SOME to a degree, but not relevant to ALL, in fact i suggest people don't worry about money even if it is the case, and SAVE energy and our planet. This is more ethical and towards the education to build a better "Human" I say if you can save energy NOW, do it, Help save our planet no matter what cost.

Also if you added up the energy in an industrial Drill place, the ANNUAL energy saved per year is amazing. Also the SOLAR aspect (which is what Peter is leaving out) is amazing too. You can Run 1HP appliances under a FEASBLE solar application. Before your 1HP variable load application would run down on a 120Watt panel, not in RV mode.

So it depends, for those that want off the Grid for GOOD, its a tiny sacrifice for a solar shop.

Ash

[Peter Lindemann]

Thanks for the Offer

Well, he would have no rest from questions Well, it is sorta like that now

Yes I live in Fort Wayne, IN, Not sure where Peter is, but would love to have him do the measurements.

Thanks for your well thought out reply Peter, we have the same goals of finding the best and simplest methods of increasing efficiency, and getting the most for the energy put in, and having a common way to express that.

Mart

Mart,

Thanks for the offer. I'd love to test your unit. Unfortunately, I live near Spokane, Washington, a mere 2000 miles from Fort Wayne, Indiana. But building your own dynamometer is simple and cheap! All you need is a tachometer, a wheel with a known circumference attached to the shaft of the motor, two spring scales and a leather strap. I show everything in my EMS DVD. Other than the cost of the tachometer, the total cost is about $25. If you want to understand the efficiency of the motor, its a great investment.

Peter

[Peter Lindemann]

Not Foaming or Steaming........Yet

Hi all,

Okay, sorry. I haven't had time to keep up ATM. Now peter thanks for the comments i happen to like you too. How ever in this practice we are yet to have a research center with qualified validated results, This is what i am pushing for. The engineers who put the comps data together have done it by their lab and meters and tests. I am working towards a more formal presentation, yes i said i would clean it up for YOU. But i cannot produce this over night. I understand what your saying and have always moved towards it, hence why you have what you have in the comps so far

The Drill and water pump is sufficient to suffice for now by showing the DRAW comparisons with the NORMAL 3/4 HP motors. Dont forget to add in a higher rated motor run at 1/4 of the voltage with a Freq Gen and tune the caps if the load changes then you have the non waste full and or energy saving RV.(Not just a Variac run Drill).

The advanced circuits are being up graded/Tested. Don't forget what RV mode is in with a Frequency Gen. You are leaving it out. Also there are many different ways the RV is different (in practice not principle)to your variac way, when you load your Drill with 1/4 of your voltage, you DONT TUNE IT WITH CAPS UNDER CONSTANT LOAD CONDITIONS. The RV energy saving = 1/4 frequency driven and tuned with caps CONSTANTLY to the needs of the load.

The Advanced RLC way is different ofcause. This is the Rv energy saving way, you call it not wasting energy and is fine, we call it more efficient, but who cares about semantics Peter . We are a forums of tinkers and not at the noble prize place yet . Adding the caps to the needs of the load and frequency driving a higher rated motor to the RV comp author engineers, is impedance matching, matching the source to the needs of the load, and the advanced circuits are about that. Again i stated in the early posts not to let this [Jargon] GET to you, just if you need to understand it, then ask away, and l clean up a version for YOU.

The Engineers who have done it can tell you it saves ALLOT of energy that's enough for me to publish what there is in the compilations. Again If we had your drill under a variac, with just adjusting the voltage that would be fine but is not RV mode.With the RV, we would run a bigger motor at 1/4 of the voltage, Freq drive it and tune it TO THE NEEDS OF THE LOAD , at every load we do. Slightly different.

I am sorry we don't have a research center with grants and equipment yet tailored specifically for alternative and suppressed energy . I am putting together demos with our press and grant, sponsors for this to happen(under my non profit org i work for).Yes mart if your near peter you could take him an RV to do the research i have asked Koneheadx to work with peter and show him.

Also for Peter since i was being BARKED at

>Do the science correctly, and you will see what it is. Then report the experimental results to the rest of us, in a language we understand. Then we will know the facts as well.

What we have done can be verified by any one given our tools, We don't have a university lab to do this at this time, so this is not needed constructive criticism at this time (i am aware of this) we are all aware of what can convince skeptics who don't build, perhaps you should build it your self and experiment :").

Trafo = transformers, a FAQ is available in the EVGRAY forum showing these terms.
Plus a "single phase SCh in the energy saving comp" = we have a single phase RV SCHematic in the energy saving compilation

Ash

Ps, and ye i am aware peter probabaly is foaming at the mouth and steam is coming out of his ears at this time., but be kind to your students and fans , its the best they can do for now)

Ash,

I guess I am just a little bit frustrated at the level of commitment you are exhibiting to maintaining the RV project in a state of confusion and scientific ambiguity. The cost and difficulty of building a dynamometer is very low, and the claiming that you can't do it until your non-profit is funded seems unnecessarily unreasonable. I apologize if it seemed I was "barking" at you.

As a cost saving, energy saving method, the RV process has proved itself, over and over. This is not in question. We all agree on this.

My contention is that similar energy savings and cost savings can be had by applying the same methods to single phase motors as well. In other words, if you take any single phase induction motor, loosen up the bearings, run it on reduced voltage through a variable frequency power supply, and Power Factor Correct it for the final load, you will find similar energy savings and cost reductions for operating your appliance as you see in the RV. To say that these energy savings ONLY appear when you rewire 3-phase motors in the RV mode is simply not true.

My other contention is that these changes to the method of motor operation DO NOT change the underlying efficiency of the motor. These methods are "power management" methods and do not affect the PHYSICS of how the motor converts electrical energy into magnetic energy into mechanical energy!

The RV method DOES:
1) eliminate 98% of wasted energy
2) allow the circuitry to produce 100% of the Reactive Power the motor requires, thereby lowering the amount of Apparent Power required from the source
3) reduce mechanical friction by loosening up the bearings
4) reduce electrical input requirements even more by running the motor on reduced voltage.
5) convert the fixed speed induction motor into a variable speed motor whose output can be speed optimized for running the load

The effect of all of these modifications is that the motor is running "lean and mean" and very efficiently. It is ALSO running in a REDUCED mechanical capacity, so that a motor that was originally rated for 5 Horse Power is only capable of producing about 1/4th of this much mechanical energy after the modifications. So, it IS drawing a lot less electrical energy, but it is also producing a lot less mechanical energy. This is what I mean. The over-all efficiency of the electrical to mechanical conversion rate in the motor HAS NOT CHANGED.

In the end, as long as the amount of mechanical energy the motor produces is ENOUGH for the specific application, its just fine. But there is nothing magical about the 5 HP Baldor Motor. These are UNIVERSAL PRINCIPLES, and can be applied to all induction motors with similar results.

I'm glad your friend with the hydroponic gardens has saved a lot of money. You have provided him with a great service. Perhaps if you had known more, you might have been able to convert the motors he had to these methods, and even saved him the cost of buying the new motors.

And finally, like you, I think people SHOULD make energy saving decisions, even if they cost more. This is an attitude of an affluent society that needs to tighten its belt. Wasting energy has become a habit of unconsciousness, and we ALL need to wake up to how little energy we really need to accomplish our necessary tasks. More than 80% of the energy we purchase on a daily basis does NOT go to the purposes we bought it for. This is true of our automobiles, light sources that produce mostly heat, appliances that are still ON when they look like they are OFF, and the list continues inconveniently for a long time.... We are all participating in an unsustainable waste of energy resources, and we all have to learn to do better.

If the RV project addresses some of this, I am all for it.

Peter

[ashtweth]

Hi Peter , We have always said you can RV a single phase and or three phase motor, that is stated in the compilations, sorry about confusing you .

It comes down to my time for the revised and clearer version and prony breaks. Mean time i don't mind picking up the tab for Mart if he wants to prony break it mart? I have 4 projects ATM plus have to updates sites, edit videos and do promos, so don't have allot of time i ATM sorry peter but will get it done .

Am doing my best to get the standard you require just have to wait for me ATM . I am making a new video with all the themes you state (RV video) and will clarify all the jargon in it. Mean time we are getting some advanced SG inverter circuits and a double neon for that reactive power.

so hope to have some R and D to get you thining in 2 weeks.

Ash

[theremart]

RE: Prony break.

It comes down to my time for the revised and clearer version and prony breaks. Mean time i don't mind picking up the tab for Mart if he wants to prony break it mart? I have 4 projects ATM plus have to updates sites, edit videos and do promos, so don't have allot of time i ATM sorry peter but will get it done .

Ash

I guess for a prony break I need

1. A leather strap may need to get this ( $10.00 )

2. 2 scales to tension this strap ( Need to order this $? ) Now if what Master RV Ash says is true, I will scales for a 1 1/4 horse power motor as this is a 5 HP motor.

3. Regulated power supply ( I have this is very old but works have double checked it with my other meters)

4. An additional wheel at idealy cut at 1 foot circumference to make measuring easier for the shaft of the motor. ($?)

5. A tach meter ( I have this )

6. Six hands to do all at the same time like Peter does he he, I could enlist the help of a friend. ( cost of a pizza $ 10.00 )

7. Video of this and put on youtube ( free, I have the camera and the motivation to do this.

-------------------------------------

[Peter Lindemann]

Scales and Leather

I guess for a prony break I need

1. A leather strap may need to get this ( $10.00 )

2. 2 scales to tension this strap ( Need to order this $? ) Now if what Master RV Ash says is true, I will scales for a 1 1/4 horse power motor as this is a 5 HP motor.

3. Regulated power supply ( I have this is very old but works have double checked it with my other meters)

4. An additional wheel at idealy cut at 1 foot circumference to make measuring easier for the shaft of the motor. ($?)

5. A tach meter ( I have this )

6. Six hands to do all at the same time like Peter does he he, I could enlist the help of a friend. ( cost of a pizza $ 10.00 )

7. Video of this and put on youtube ( free, I have the camera and the motivation to do this.

-------------------------------------

Mart,

The calibrated spring scales I got at Edmund Scientific. Here's the link: Dual Calibration Spring Scales - Science Gifts - Edmund Scientific

Buy two of each of the 1Kg, 3Kg, and 5Kg scales. With that, you'll be ready for anything.

The leather strap needs to be SOFT leather, like un-dyed suede. I got mine at a craft store, but there are lots of options here.

The wheel I have always made on a lathe. Pick a material that the leather strap slides on easily. The black wheel I show in my DVD is made of Delrin, and it works really well. I have also made wheels of acrylic that work fine. But less expensive materials can also work, like a nice hardwood, like Oak. Just know that if the surface is too aggressive, it won't work.

It seems like you have seen the DVD (me with six hands) so you've got all the math. By the way, pizza and a friend is a better way!

For the input measurement, use your Kill-A-Watt meter, set to WATTS.

In the DVD, I show the method for testing a DC traction motor. For your AC induction motor, its slightly different. The dynamometer test of the AC motor will not slow the motor down by more than 5%, whereas the test of the DC traction motor showed a significant slow down in RPMs. This has to do with the different ways these motors produce torque.

When you get everything together, we can talk on the phone, if you would like.

Great work, Mart.

Peter

[Peter Lindemann]

I'm Not Confused

Hi Peter , We have always said you can RV a single phase and or three phase motor, that is stated in the compilations, sorry about confusing you .

It comes down to my time for the revised and clearer version and prony breaks. Mean time i don't mind picking up the tab for Mart if he wants to prony break it mart? I have 4 projects ATM plus have to updates sites, edit videos and do promos, so don't have allot of time i ATM sorry peter but will get it done .

Am doing my best to get the standard you require just have to wait for me ATM . I am making a new video with all the themes you state (RV video) and will clarify all the jargon in it. Mean time we are getting some advanced SG inverter circuits and a double neon for that reactive power.

so hope to have some R and D to get you thining in 2 weeks.

Ash

Ash,

I can see that you are busy, so please don't take my posts as if I was applying a hot poker to you. And these aren't the standards "I" require. They are the standards YOU require if you plan to educate others to the efficacy of the RV method.

I'll work with Mart over here to get a definitive dynamometer test of his motor.

I look forward to seeing all of your new videos and information compilations.

No worries, Mate!

Peter

[ashtweth]

Thanks peter

I see Peter speaks Aussie Slang . Thanks mate, am re writing all the comps and putting together a Video Script ATM. Shouldn't be too much longer. I am also going to talk to a technical TAFE (Australian university) to see if we can Hi jack their Dyno , looking forward to comparing yours and Marts with ours.

Ash

[theremart]

Ok just need to get the cost of two more parts

Peter,

How hard would it be for you to get me the cost of making a wheel for the motor? I am working on getting a total for the wheel, and if you have someone that you know who could do this and ship it to me I think that is a way that I would like to explore. I really want to do this right, and I think you know what we need to do to get this done right.

Thanks

mart

[Peter Lindemann]

Home Made

Peter,

How hard would it be for you to get me the cost of making a wheel for the motor? I am working on getting a total for the wheel, and if you have someone that you know who could do this and ship it to me I think that is a way that I would like to explore. I really want to do this right, and I think you know what we need to do to get this done right.

Thanks

mart

Mart,

I could make you one on my lathe. What is the shaft diameter of your motor?

Peter

[theremart]

RE: diameter of rotor

I put a rule on it and I measured 1 and 1/8 inch.

According to baldor web sight it is 1.125

http://www.baldor.com/DMS/documents/...3d36LYA003.pdf

So doing my math 1/8 = .125

So 1 and 1/8th inch seems to be the correct diameter.


P.S. How do you normal hold these on? do you drill a holding screw? I have a metal chuck but have never put one of these together.

mart