The secret to extracting mechanical energy out of SSG

[theremart]

RE: Killing my ceramics.

Hi theremart,

Just to say be careful with those Nds. They can weaken your ceramic magnets if they are used in repulsion with them. Repulsion of magnets can deplete them, if one of them is too strong can kill the other!! So If I were you I would use them in attraction arrangement.

Elias

THANK YOU!

The more I look at this, the more I am thinking that I am liking the Muller design of a generator. Less drag, and better output perfect for the SSG.
It uses less copper too!

Instructions on building a Muller generator:
http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/32magnetrotor.html

I had been focusing on a wind genererator, but the Muller design just makes much more sense.

[elias]

Some Calculations

Hi,
As I am seeing some of the people getting interested for replicating this stuff,
I decided to make some calculations, to demystify this a bit. So here is my results in the attached picture.

These are the variables used in the calculation:

F_input: The force applied by the larger rotor. (Our work being done)
F_output: The resulted force on the smaller rotor.
F_repulsion: The repulsive force of the magnet.
x: Displacement from the tangential alignment of the rotor magnets. x = 0 means that F_output = F_input. And as x increases F_output changes, and will increase if F_repulsion is sufficiently high.
r_a: Radius of the larger rotor
r_b: Radius of the smaller rotor

What I found out is the fact that, excess torque will be obvious at a small rotor, which its radius is almost double the width of the magnets on it, meaning that for 1.5cm width magnets, a diameter of 6cm is good, and may produce very good results, although smaller, may work good or better too. The trick is not to sacrifice the repulsion force of the magnets by going too small.

Regards
Elias

[ren]

Hi guys, please visit below link to see an interesting design principle put into play.

GEMINI ELECTRIC MOTOR

[Jetijs]

Elias,
I made some tests today. Here is my setup:









At first I used single stacked magnets on both - bigger and smaller rotors. The spacing between both wheels was about 4mm. It was hard to get both wheels to couple, because if the SSG speed increased too fast, they would decouple ans the smaller wheel would stop. I found that this is because the space between magnets on each wheel is too big, just like in gears where there is a big space between teeth. So I double stacked the magnets on the smaller wheel (did not have enough of them to double stack also the bigger wheel), making the overall magnet strength bigger thus achieving better coupling. Just like in gears, if you reduce the space between loose teeth, you get less backlash and smoother movement. In this case we just made the gear teeth longer. But there is still some backlash as you can see in my video. As I rotate the smaller wheel, I can rotate it for a few degrees before the bigger rotor starts to move. When I attached the smaller rotor to the setup, i found that there is a lot more drag on the bigger wheel thus more force is needed to spin it. Also less RPM's are achieved. The smaller rotor acts like a load. The bigger wheel is still easy to stop by hand. I noticed, that when I gently load the smaller wheel, it slows down and so does the bigger wheel. This makes me believe that we are just dealing with a magnetic flywheel effect. Also the smaller rotor was easy to stop with my finger, felt just as easy as stopping the bigger rotor. Could it be that the torque you felt was just the matter of the diameter difference of both wheels? I mean it is far easier to stop my bigger wheel if I press on its outer side and harder if I press my finger on the area near the center. But the torque is the same, it just feels harder. Maybe I am doing something wrong, but this far I consider this only as a magnetic flywheel.
Will make some more tests tomorrow. Maybe I should try to pulse the smaller rotor and see how the bigger one reacts
Here is the video:
YouTube - Some SSG tests

[ren]

Good work Jet! I found out the same results as you. When the large wheel speeds up if the smaller wheel isnt kept in sync it will just make a mess of things. I found that overall speed was reduced slightly when they were in sync, so it kind of acts like a magnetic gear without a physical coupling. Id be interested to place a pick up coil near the small cog once it is up to speed to see if you can tap any current.

I also found that there was one ideal spot for the placement of the smaller rotor. It was unusually off center and ununiform to the rest of the setup. It could have been simply the geometry of the rotors as there was a 10 mag coupled to 2 mag, but I might be worth moving the rotor around a bit. When I had it in its sweet spot, I could spin the large wheel to start it and it would keep in sync all the way to running speed.
Keep it up guys.

[Jetijs]

Thanks ren
In my case the RPM and acceleration speed drop with the smaller wheel attached was very noticeable. When I took the smaller wheel out of the setup, the bigger wheel just "took off"
Elias, if possible, please show us some pictures of your setup.

[elias]

Jetijs,

Nice setup you have! If your small rotor requires the same force to stop it then you have doubled the energy in your second rotor! because it is half the size with more RPMs, but I don't think so. Your small rotor is too big I suppose to produce this effect. I can't see in your video, any visual evidence (very little) of the utilization of the repulsion of the magnets. Your magnets are only using the tangential force to move each other, which is only putting drag on each other. I did the calculations in my recent post to show that in theory It should produce more energy if your small rotor is small enough to utilize the repulsion force. Now what theory says, is that your magnet dimensions and the rotor size are important and your small rotor may have better results if your small wheel diameter does not exceed four times the magnet widths.

I hope I get time to build it in the next few days, to be able to show you something in operation. I need to get some bearings for it. Wait until I implement this and show it here.

If you want to make adjustments I would suggest using a smaller 8cm rotor with four magnets, or 6cm rotor with three. But to get better results, I think that the magnet spacings must be smaller on your bigger rotor.

Best Wishes
Elias.

[Jetijs]

elias, that is why I wanted to see pictures of your setup, that would make many things clear for me

[elias]

Some photos

Hi

You asked for photos, so I took some. I am holding my small SSG near the large one. As you see My smaller magnets are using a little bit of the repulsion force of the magnets, on my larger wheel, if you pay attention to their alignment. This is not a very good setup at all, because my magnet spacings don't match precisely, but it was enough to demonstrate this fact to me. Hope these are useful. Remember, smaller rotor!! as small as your Lindemann attraction motor.


Elias

[Jetijs]

I can't really go with smaller rotor, because my shaft and the bearing holders does not allow that. To be honest I still do not quite understand this repulsion effect you are talking about . Can you make a drawing, showing what the best magnet/spacing/rotor diameter ratio would be? Maybe I should just increase the magnet count in my smaller rotor to say 9? Then they would be closer together.

[elias]

I can't really go with smaller rotor, because my shaft and the bearing holders does not allow that. To be honest I still do not quite understand this repulsion effect you are talking about . Can you make a drawing, showing what the best magnet/spacing/rotor diameter ratio would be? Maybe I should just increase the magnet count in my smaller rotor to say 9? Then they would be closer together.

Jetijs,

Take a look at this page http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/2magpup.htm, and you'll understand what I am talking about, I explained in my previous post, and calculated, and derived formulas to show how this can happen. Take a more close look at my posted diagram with calculations, It is so obvious.

I would like to propose a question. How do you separate two powerful magnets attached to each other? Obviously, no one tries to pull them away, because it is almost impossible, with Nd magnets especially. So you try to slide them on each other, to make them get separated. This is the fact I am talking about, magnets are much stronger in pulling or pushing each other, than sliding each other away.

So what we want to do? we want to utilize this force(The repulsion, push force), which does not put any drag on the rotor for kicking the magnet on your small rotor away (the only drag is from the sliding force). You can also use a piston, but I think that smaller rotor is just fine, because pistons have their own complications. Hope I could clarify this a bit.

BTW, remember to look at my derived formulas, which exactly show, why this happens.

Regards
Elias

[Jetijs]

I think I am getting this. If I understand it correctly, we just want to slide one N magnet beneath other so that two N poles are facing each other and then just let them push each other off. If the smaller rotor is small enough, the repulsive pressure wont be in the rotor center direction anymore, but rather in the one side direction, depending on if the rotation is clockwise or counterclockwise. Right?

[theremart]

Thanks for the pictures!

That helps alot.

I tried it today with my smaller neos with the ceramic magnets, could not get the timing just right, but the problem I had it would also act as a brake. when the magnets hit the field it would turn at the same speed but would not jump ahead like you mentioned.

[elias]

Almost right

I think I am getting this. If I understand it correctly, we just want to slide one N magnet beneath other so that two N poles are facing each other and then just let them push each other off. If the smaller rotor is small enough, the repulsive pressure wont be in the rotor center direction anymore, but rather in the one side direction, depending on if the rotation is clockwise or counterclockwise. Right?

Jetijs,

We just want to make use of a force normally not used, which is the strongest force of the magnet. Magnets pull and push very much strongly, and thus we can make the magnet push away some other magnet, by only sliding it over it which requires LESS force. I am going to buy a digital balance to measure the magnet push force in different alignments, to see if I could put some numbers in my calculations to make it more understandable.

Theremart,

If you love your ceramic magnets, don't expose them to Nds in repulsion, they will eat them, I warn you! And my ideal setup for the SSG you saw is using a 6cm rotor, with four 1.5cm width magnets on it, not the picture I have shown, that's why I was refusing to show it. Just wait until I build my unit, and I promise I'll show with numbers, the forces we are dealing with.

Elias

[ren]

I like your train of thought Elias. You're right about separating the magnets apart. No way you can just pull them apart if they are strong.

Its kind of like a weakness we can exploit and study, I think with some strong ones it could have an excellent effect!