$2 for 125 miles aircar

[Aaron]

AMAZING AIR CAR!
"The Compressed Air Car developed by Motor Development International (MDI) Founder Guy Negre might be the best thing to have happened to the motor engine in years.

The $12,700 CityCAT, one of the planned Air Car models, can hit 68 mph and has a range of 125 miles. It will take only a few minutes for the CityCAT to refuel at gas stations equipped with custom air compressor uni ts. MDI says it should cost only around $2 to fill the car up with 340 liters of air!
The Air Car will be starting production relatively soon, thanks to India 's TATA Motors. Forget corn! There's fuel, there's renewable fuel, and then there's user-renewable fuel! What can be better than air?"

Off Grid Living: Expensive Gas ? Drive a Compressed Air Car.

company hompage: Air Car Factories - The Air Car

[Redmeanie]

Awesome!

I saw this guy on "Cool Fuels", Im glad he has been able to put them into production. That was his big fear on the show.

You know what upsets me is the US won't let them be imported and driven on the roads as a licensed vehicle, because it won't have the "Safety Features" that are required by "DOT"!

Just Watch that will be their reason....

I would still LOVEto get a hold of one of the motors!!!

[ashtweth]

Always wanted to do a LEE Rogers compressed air replication, you could use the RV to drive an Air compressor spinning at 2800 RPM on .4ACA (if not heavily loaded).

No one does compressed air replications sadly.

Ash

[theremart]

RE: Air car

I saw this guy on "Cool Fuels", Im glad he has been able to put them into production. That was his big fear on the show.

You know what upsets me is the US won't let them be imported and driven on the roads as a licensed vehicle, because it won't have the "Safety Features" that are required by "DOT"!

Just Watch that will be their reason....

I would still LOVEto get a hold of one of the motors!!!

If they work as they say they do, I would say... Send them to Mexico and Canada where they do not have our STUPID ( or planned regulations as the powers may be ) regulations. Then, after our country goes broke paying for the gas prices, we can have the choice of either being Mexicans or Canadians.. I think this is doable. Most of the jobs here in the US have gone to other countries that don't have the Union Mafia bosses, and poor regulation.

Now mind you, I am glad we do have safety measures here in the US, that they don't in other countries, ( sweat shops ) and employee safety. But why can we not change?

But why can we not change..... ( at least at the rate I would like it to go

Mart

[rickoff]

Air car - not a new idea

Hi folks,

I read Aarons post about the air car with great interest, and it reminded me of something I had read on KeelyNet about 15 years ago. That article was about a Harold L Boese's Nitrogen powered engine, which used liquid Nitrogen as the "fuel." The Nitrogen was then fed through a heat exchanger coil, turning the Nitrogen into its gaseous state, which produced an increase in volume of 980 to 1! The original concept was tested with an off-the-shelf air motor, and it worked great. NASA later used Boese's design to power the Lunar Rover, and Boese also converted a Ford Pinto station wagon to operate reliably with this technology. According to the KeelyNet article, "Boese claimed he had also discovered a means of generating his own liquid nitrogen AS THE CAR WAS RUNNING, so that it could partially or fully replenish its own fuel." In other words, he was reclaiming the expanded gas and returning it to its prior liquid Nitrogen state at the storage tank. I read somewere else (I'll look for that reference later) that an internal combustion engine could be converted to run on Boese's technology. It makes perfect sense. The force of the expanded Nitrogen gas would definitely be sufficent to powerfully drive the pistons. The ICE's intake/compression/power/exhaust cycles would only need to be converted to intake/exhaust for each down-up movement of the piston in a Nitrogen engine, and this would be accomplished with a different camshaft/timing arrangement . Atmospheric air would not be allowed to enter the intake stream, and exhaust (remaining very cool) would be rerouted to pass through a compressor to further cool, and return to the liquid Nitrogen storage tank.
You can read more about Boese's technology at the following link:
Boese Nitrogen Engine

Enjoy,

Rickoff

[Aaron]

Papp Engine

Rick,

Reminds me of the Papp Engine that is supposed to run on nobel gases...not necessarily by it expanding volume but with plasma discharges in the gases...maybe they do expand, not sure.
http://peswiki.com/energy/PowerPedia:Joseph_Papp's_Noble_Gas_Engine

This one is totally sealed.

[rickoff]

Re: Papp Engine

Hi Aaron,

I watched Jim Sabori's 60 minute Papp engine video, and it was interesting, though of poor quality. The engine uses 5 of the 7 known noble gasses, but only a small amount (about 3 cubic centimeters, if I recall correctly) of the gas mix is sealed in a long chamber. The gas mix has to undergo a complex treatment (or "polarization" process, as Papp said) before it can be used effectively. One interesting aspect is that the Tesla coils which produce the ball lightning plasma effect do this in a vacuum. As Jim Sabori says, "The energy comes from the vacuum." Seems to paraphrase Tom Bearden's book and DVD title, doesn't it? Anyways, the noble gases are not ignited and burned. They remain in the cylinder, except for what small amount is able to leak past the teflon rings of the piston. The only reason why noble gases are used is because they are inert and will not combust. That is important in a sealed engine chamber. If you used air, the engine would not function. Air contains all of the noble gasses used in the mix except for helium, which comes from oil wells. Air, however, also contains Methane, Hydrogen, Oxygen and water vapor, which is a highly volatile mixture when exposed to a plasma burst. The amount of heat and pressure produced would blow the engine apart. In fact, one Papp engine did explode, killing a bystander. This happened when a disbelieving scientist pulled a plug connected to an AC voltage source, thinking this would expose the engine as a hoax. Papp unsuccessfully pleaded with the scientist to reconnect the plug, then yanked it from his hands and plugged it back in, but it was too late. I would theorize that maintaining an adequate seal in the chamber was very difficult, and that a steady replenishment of the noble gas mixture was necessary, by means of an external, pressure regulated pump, which ran off the AC source, along with other engine controlling electronics. When enough of the noble gas mix had leaked past the piston, and was replaced by air leaking inwards, a critical point was reached where an explosion occurred. That's my best guess, anyways, and to me it makes sense.

I do believe, Aaron, that the noble gas mix would certainly expand when the plasma burst occurs. Each of the noble gasses is very sensitive to temperature changes. For example, Argon gas (the most plentiful Noble gas) becomes a liquid at -185.80 C degrees, and freezes solid at -189.5C degrees, a very short range indeed. In comparison, Nitrogen liquefies at -195.8C and freezes at -210C, a close but wider range. As pointed out in my previous post to this thread, Nitrogen has a tremendous expansive property when heated, and I believe that Argon, and the other noble gasses would react similarly. In the Papp engine, it appears that very little expansion is needed, because the engine can idle down to 100 rpm. That's probably why so little of the gas mix is required. The 2 cylinder engine produces so much torque that it yields 500 hp at just 1,000 rpm. Another very interesting feature of the engine is the use of a stack of three large coil spools that encircle each cylinder. Theoretically, then, if magnets were incorporated in the part moving past the coils, it could charge a capacitor bank during the expansion stroke that could be used to energize the coils to produce attraction and/or repulsion timings to assist the contraction stroke. A hefty flywheel also assists the contraction. All in all, a very interesting concept, and it would be great if mass produced. Of course we will never see that happen, and it is unlikely that any of us will attempt to duplicate the Papp technology. We could figure most of it out easily enough, but the optimal ratios of the mixed gasses, and the "polarization" process that Papp used could be very difficult to replicate. I believe it would be much easier to build a nitrogen engine, or achieve a plasma/air combustion effect in a normal internal combustion engine, or to perfect and standardize the Joe Cell design and usage to the point where it can be successfully duplicated for use without fuel. The compressed air engine technology looks promising, except for the fact that you would have to stop somewhere for recharges if traveling any real distance. Gas stations already have coin operated air compressors to charge for inflating a tire. I wonder - what will they charge for a compressed air engine recharge?

Happy motoring,

Rickoff

[Aaron]

nitrogen

Hi Rick,

Thanks for the very informative post on the Papp! I remember reading about the exploding Papp engine.

Because of your post, I just posted this:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...-nitrogen.html

About allotropic nitrogen | active nitrogen. I'll explain in that thread.

[Danny EscapeHybrid]

I know that regulatoins will keep this air car out of the US. Which seems strange considering they let the SMART car out on the freeway, go figure...

Anyway, I would be more interested in using the engine and storage system to retro fit it to say any number of small cars we have avail now. Im betting it can be done with out to much trouble. (cept maybe secret Oil Company troubleshooters...)

Danny

[rickoff]

Re: Active Nitrogen

Hi Aaron,

I read your Active Nitrogen post with interest. Some of the older material I had read before when exploring Nitrogen possibilities. The "Donut" configuration caused me to think of something Jim Sabori talked about in his Papp Engine video. I think it was somewhere near the end of the video, when they were stripping the upper engine parts down to the engine block. He was holding a chamber and showing the interior as viewed from the top, then flipped it end to end to show what he called a "donut" chamber at the bottom. It's difficult to remember the exact details from a 60 minute video, so maybe I'll go back in and look at that section again to see exactly what he was talking about at that point.

I have done some searching on the Internet to see if there have been recent experiments with Nitrogen expansion technology, and I did find two universities that have conducted separate research on an "LN2" project. One was at Washington State University, funded by the US Department of Energy, and featured a 15hp radial air motor conversion in a 1984 US Postal Service delivery route vehicle. The other was at the University of North Texas, and utilized a go-cart like vehicle. The WSU project was discontinued after funding was withdrawn, but the experiment is still displayed on the University website at: CryoCar
A link is provided on the above web page to the experiment performed by the University of North Texas. It amazed me that neither experiment attempted to recirculate the expanded Nitrogen back into the Nitrogen tank, but instead exhaust wasted it to the atmosphere. How fuelish of them! Recirculation of as much Nitrogen as possible should be the goal in any serious Nitrogen engine project. And after all, how difficult could that be, considering that you only have to lower the temperature of the Nitrogen a few degrees to return it to its liquid state?

I did find another website that puts forth the interesting idea of feeding the unexpanded liquid nitrogen directly to the engine, instead of preheating with a heat exchanger. To expand the Nitrogen, a burst of steam vapor would be introduced to the engine at the same moment. It is thought that the liquid Nitrogen would initially freeze the steam vapor into small, dispersed ice crystals, but that the ice crystals would almost as quickly return to water vapor state. The theory behind why this might work quite well is stated by the author as such:
" 1) When the H2O drops 2 STATES DOWN, steam to ice, the vacuum created is going to be instantaneous.

2) The nitrogen will then be drawn into this vacuum at an even faster rate than the nitrogen would normally expand anyway in normal atmosphere.

3) Midway through all this near-instantaneous interaction the temperature differences will cancel out and the ice converts into water condensate. "

You can view the entire "Icy-Hot" engine proposal at the following website:
ICY HOT ENGINE PROCESS by Woodrow Riley

One last note: I'm not sure what the air-car (the first post in this thread) uses for its engine, but the compressed air is 78 % Nitrogen by weight and volume, so you could rightly call it a Nitrogen powered vehicle. Do you know if the compressed air is compressed to a liquid state, or only to a relative psi value? Hmmm, I believe that I just answered that question after referring to the Air Car link in the first post. The air is compressed to about 4,350 psi, about the same pressure used for liquefied Nitrogen. That will require some specialized air compressors at "refueling" stations, and I don't think that $2 recharges will be a likely scenario here in the US. Furthermore, the Air Car scheduled for distribution in the US by 2010 will incorporate a hybrid design that burns gasoline to generate heat for more rapid air expansion, thus delivering more power. So, unfortunately, that means you will have to not only pay for the compressed air recharge, but also for an 8 gallon gasoline fill-up. In the likely scenario that gas is priced at $12.50 a gallon in 2010, you may be paying $150 or more for a complete recharge of air and gas at a certified refueling station. You can bet that big oil would not allow the air car technology to come to the US unless they had an iron clad grip on the profits to be realized from the refueling aspect, and you can see that is exactly the way this is headed.

Best regards,

Rickoff

[rickoff]

Re: Jim Sabori's "Donut shape" chamber

I went back into Jim Sabori's 2-cylinder Papp engine video footage to see what the reference was in relation to the "donut shape" chamber. The chamber I am referring to is actually a long, hollow cylindrical metal chamber which acts as a moving piston. A smaller, stationary piston is inserted inside the top of the longer hollow chambered piston, and this seals the inert noble gas mix inside the chamber by means of teflon rings. The stationary piston is held steadily in place by the rigid upper framework, and the long chambered piston (attached to a shorter piston riding in the engine block bore) moves up and down on the stationary piston by means of crankshaft/connecting rod action, as in an internal combustion engine. After the double-piston unit is assembled, all air inside the long chamber is evacuated, and 3 cubic centimeters of the noble gas mix is then inserted and sealed. When the long chambered piston is at top dead center on the stationary piston, the remaining chamber area forms a toroidal "donut" shape. Jim Sabori begins showing the long chambered piston at 41:25 of the 60 minute Google video, seen at Jimmy Sabori's Papp Engine Video and mentions the "donut shape" at 41:48. The stationary piston is shown beginning at 42:40. Notice that the stationary piston has 4 stepped borings that pass through it. These are for insertion of the insulated electrodes. Early in the video, at about 1:00, Jim mentions that energy created in chamber #1 is released to the adjacent cylinder chamber #2, which in turn releases its energy back into chamber #1, and so on. It is not clear if he means by way of a passage connecting the chambers, or by energy developed by the 3 massive coils surrounding each chamber. Jim states that these coils operate on 24 volts, are independently timed, and that he develops a 1000 volt spike of 600 amperes. The voltage is perfect for firing the electrodes, but Jim has no use for the excess of amperes, so drains them off through some massive resistors, explaining that it would otherwise burn up his electrodes. Now imagine what you could usefully accomplish with those 600 amperes.......

Aaron - this all makes me wonder if Nitrogen could be utilized in the chamber instead of the noble gas mix. What do you think? As the Nitrogen is charged by the coils, Active Nitrogen would form in the lower space of the chamber, where it would take on the swirling yellow light phenomenon. As the Active Nitrogen is compressed by the dual piston action, it would become further cooled, thus increasingly multiplying the powerful effect of the phenomenon. Does that make sense to you, or am I just spinning my wheels?

Rickoff

[rickoff]

Re: Lee Rogers replication

Hi Ash,

I like your idea of the Lee Rogers air car replication and using a Roto-Verter to drive a compressor. Lee simply used a modified automobile engine and kept the air in a closed, recirculating loop. The loop was comprised of 4 air tanks and an engine driven compressor capable of maintaining 500 psi. As the primary tank emptied to a certain degree, one of the reserve tanks would take over as the supply, or could optionally be used to restore pressure in the main tank. At a standstill, the air tanks were initially pressurized using Nitrogen, which allowed the car to move out and build speed. As the desired 500 psi output of the compressor was required to restore pressure in any of the depleted (or partially depleted) reserve tanks, and was dependent upon the engine maintaining a highway speed sufficient to produce 2,000 rpm, lower speed city driving could only be maintained for about 20 minutes. The addition of the Roto-Verter to drive an additional "booster" compressor would likely solve the low speed problem, and would also place less demand upon the engine to drive the main compressor at higher speeds, thus freeing more energy to reach the drive wheels. The booster compressor could easily be a rebuilt automobile air conditioning compressor from a salvage yard, such as a Frigidaire A-6 unit found on many 1962-1985 GM vehicles. The A-6 can put out 42,000 BTU's and 240 psi if rotated at 4,000 rpm.

Your idea makes perfect sense, Ash, and is definitely worth pursuing. As I said in an earlier post on this thread, only a closed loop system that fully or partially regenerates its motive power source is worthy of consideration, and this application fills that requirement. Lee was supposedly going to mass produce and market a conversion kit for around $1,000 that could easily be adapted to any automobile engine, but I haven't seen that kit become available. It is thought that Lee died in Florida in 1995, so the kit plans may have died with him. Until such a kit becomes available, a similar investment could yield the same results for experimenters willing to do the work. Do you have a preliminary concept plan drawn up yet for the conversion, and do you have any plans to start an experimenters thread devoted to attaining a successful Rogers/Roto-Verter conversion?

Best to all, Rickoff

[Aaron]

cryo car

Cryo car is interesting. I'd like to see it if it is on display at WSU next time I'm in the Pullman, WA area.





Rick, what you say about using Nitrogen makes sense. I haven't put much thought into these kind of systems but am interested in some of the heat pump systems. I have some interesting info on this that I'll also post if I come across it. I would have to scan it in.

[Danny EscapeHybrid]

The air is compressed to about 4,350 psi, about the same pressure used for liquefied Nitrogen. That will require some specialized air compressors at "refueling" stations, and I don't think that $2 recharges will be a likely scenario here in the US.

Rick,

You can go to most dive shops and have the compressed air. That air is monitored and checked on a monthly basis. The tanks generally store between 4k and 5k psi. Ive seen some converted submarine ballast tanks working really well.

Danny

[rickoff]

Yes Danny, one could go to a dive shop for an air car refill supposing that the dive shop's manifold connectors are the same as utilized for the air car tank. A scuba tank air charge typically costs about 7 or 8 dollars, but an air car will require a much larger tank, so the refill would be quite expensive. Besides, how often do you see dive shops when out on an Interstate highway or turnpike? Commercial air cars will simply be impractical unless used for short distance drives near home, where you will be able to plug in an onboard compressor and recharge overnight.

Rickoff