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  • Hi Robert,

    Well, one of the differences I did not consider in the placement of the switch is that the direct connection of the puffer cap to the diode bridge would make the cap to be seen by the input current draw all the time (the cap would always be in parallel with the half coils via the diode bridge) while in your schematic the cap is present only when you activate the switching at the diode bridge output and the two input MOSFET switches are also off.

    Now I wonder what may cause the "effect"? You wrote that it disappears when the cap is not fully disharged: this means that for the effect to occur, a nearly zero capacitive reactance should suddenly appear across the coils (one half of the coils in this case) and the reactance of a cap is the closest to a short circuit when the cap is fully discharged. And it must be the current (what this cap starts to take from all the half coils from the moment of the cap switch-on) which may make magnetic fields in the half coils that may add / help positively to the normal fields the input current creates. And of course the capacitive current is driven by the instanteneous AC voltage difference across the series half coils (when the input current is off and the AC voltage across the half coils comes from the induction and from the remains of the collapsing fields spikes).
    When you connect the resistor, the effect is less pronounced, probably because there isn't an instanteneous short across the coil like in case of the empty cap, and when both the cap and the resistor are present across the diode bridge output, then the instanteneous load is even more like a short (paralell RC impedance is at the smallest value). Obviously, the rise time depends on the load impedance (RC time constant of the charging cap) as you found.

    Would like to ask whether you have the possibility to change the duty cycle for the input pulses? Their duty cycle now is less than 50% I guess. Also, you drive the two input MOSFET switches in push pull? when one of them is on, the other is off and vice versa, right?

    You mentioned a possible similarity with Jim Murray reactive power experiment: while it is not known yet how Jim does 'his tricks' I think what I wrote above can fairly well explain the effect? You have a DC voltage source at the input and the input current is reduced from it when the load is switched across the half coils via the diode bridge, and it is at the output where the current is instantly high and the voltage is lagging, right? While in Jim's case the input voltage source is AC and (I assume) the lag-lead situation exists for the input voltage and current I guess.

    Greetings, Gyula

    PS: When you wrote "I put a bridge rectifier on just one half of the coils for this test and only capture the output between the drive pulses. If I try with the two halves, I get the usual drag with a 50% rise in amps." did you mean with "the two halves" that you placed the red coloured AC input of the bridge to the drain of the red MOSFET?
    I ask because if the answer is yes, then what if you try a second diode bridge across the red half coils too? and also switch the diode output like for the first bridge (but perhaps with different timing)?
    Last edited by gyula; 11-04-2014, 10:02 PM. Reason: addition

    Comment


    • a lot to think about

      Gyula,

      We seem to understand all this the same way so I think we're getting somewhere.
      I have three different timing wheels that I can use. One at 5% ,the present one at about 12% and one at about 50% ( which is too much).
      My next drive circuit will have 555 timers to control the duty cycle and timing of the drive pulses.(for delaying the pulse)

      When I put the bridge ac input between the two drains of the mosfet instead of between the plus and the blue drain, the effect was not there and the input current rose about 50%.
      I already thought of using a second bridge on the other coil also. And I will.
      For now, I'll be working on a new circuit which will be able to delay the start of the switching-on and the duration of the capture to the cap, and also switch the cap to some load.I think that timing is critical on this thing.

      I'll get back as soon as it is done.

      Robert
      Last edited by Robert49; 11-04-2014, 11:17 PM. Reason: correction

      Comment


      • O.U.

        Hi

        I just realized that I never measured the output power.

        input: 63.8v x 0.302a =19.26w

        input with cap and 200w light bulb in parallel staying connected on output: 63.8v x 0.05a =3.19w for a brief moment

        Then when stabilized, input: 61v 0.28a =17.08w
        Measuring the power on light bulb, I get: 40v x 0.83a= 33.2w
        COP > 1.94
        Slight decrease on rotational speed.

        Maybe I'm dreaming!

        Robert
        Last edited by Robert49; 11-05-2014, 01:42 AM. Reason: Forgot to mention

        Comment


        • hi robert.nice outside of the box concept and nice build.just a thought.i'm not sure if your switching devices are fets or igbts or something else,but if they have a built in diode then a portion of the collapsing field energy might be pulsing back to the power source via one or both devices,(not a bad thing but it may affect meter readings and/or reduce the output at the fwbr).cheers.
          Last edited by voltan; 11-05-2014, 11:51 AM.

          Comment


          • Hi Robert,

            Very interesting measurement data for sure...

            I wonder what may cause to measure 61V at 0.28A load current on you input DC voltage while you measure 63.8V at 0.302A load current? (on load current here I mean the current taken out from the DC supply by your pulse motor setup of course)

            It seems a bit strange that a DC supply drops its output voltage by a larger amount when its load current is less (behaves just in a reverse way: 'normal' DC supplies drop output voltage the higher, the more load current you take out).

            I would suggest using an LC low pass filter between the DC output of your power supply and the pulse motor. Perhaps such LC filter could also be useful at the DC output of the diode bridge even if you do have a very high value puffer capacitor. Here is a link to a two-stage low pass filter:
            https://rdl.train.army.mil/catalog-w...p4.htm#fig4-51

            For L1 and L2 you could use the classic air gapped core choke coils of the past electric valve era but these are a rarity nowadays so if you happen to have any mains transformer designed for at least 30-40VA power, with 6 or 12 or 15 or 24V secondary windings, you could use the secondary as a choke (leaving the primary coil floating and isolated). So you would need two such transformers, in case you have any coil with some 10mH self inductance which does not saturate for a 300-400mA DC current, you could use them of course. For the C1 and C2 capacitors try to use some hundred uF or higher electrolytic type.

            IF you feel like using such two stage low pass filter between the DC supply and the pulse motor supply input, try to check the input current taken by your motor at numbered points 6 or 7 and 8 as labeled in Figure 4-51 in the link.

            Regarding your DC output after the diode bridge, a single stage LC filter could also be considered there. So the 200W lamp load would connect via a choke to the big puffer cap and a filter cap across the lamp would also ease the ripple if there is still some left. Checking these things by an oscilloscope can reveal the validity of measured values received by the DMMs.

            Gyula

            Comment


            • oops

              Voltan and Gyula

              Thanks for waking me up.

              I put an ac amp meter on the input from the variac and you are right.

              I use ixfh20n60 mosfets for my motors and I have a box of those but the box contained something else. There was a mix-up. There were some 12n50c3 in there and I never checked the part number since the box said ixfh20n60.

              12n50c3 has a zener diode from source to drain !!!
              So now, I'm back to reality but I still have hopes for this and will tinker with the timing and see what happens. ( and will clean that box )

              Thanks a lot

              Robert
              Last edited by Robert49; 11-05-2014, 12:37 PM. Reason: Error

              Comment


              • Hi Robert,

                I can "assure" you that your ixfh20n60 type also has a diode across its source and drain... in fact every power MOSFET has this so-called body diode, created by the manufacturing process, unfortunately.
                See the data sheet for ixfh20n60: http://ixdev.ixys.com/DataSheet/91526.pdf

                The 12n50c3 type has 'only' 500V drain source breakdown voltage and 12A drain current versus the 600V, 20A ixys type and their Rds on resistance is similar. Of course a 600V breakdown voltage device is "100V safer" to use in inductive switching circuits than the 500V device.
                But the mere use of the 12n50c3 type did not likely cause the measurement errors, and the use of low pass filters would still be a good method for cleaning up the DC supply, both at the front of the input and at the output of your motor setup (your motor's output, when rectified and filtered, becomes a DC supply).

                So what is the correct DC input current draw with the cap and 200W lamp loads I wonder.

                Thanks for your kind efforts and sharing,
                Gyula

                Comment


                • hi robert.it might be worth trying this on both fets or maybe try the fwbr with one ac leg connected to each drain.or maybe not.
                  with the collection scheme in the pic the load voltage won't go much lower than the supply voltage because switch-on would pull it up to match and when it's running the nature of the load and it's impedance might have some influence on the circuit. cheers.
                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by voltan; 11-08-2014, 08:12 PM. Reason: revised

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by gyula View Post
                    Hi Robert,

                    I can "assure" you that your ixfh20n60 type also has a diode across its source and drain... in fact every power MOSFET has this so-called body diode, created by the manufacturing process, unfortunately.
                    See the data sheet for ixfh20n60: http://ixdev.ixys.com/DataSheet/91526.pdf

                    The 12n50c3 type has 'only' 500V drain source breakdown voltage and 12A drain current versus the 600V, 20A ixys type and their Rds on resistance is similar. Of course a 600V breakdown voltage device is "100V safer" to use in inductive switching circuits than the 500V device.
                    But the mere use of the 12n50c3 type did not likely cause the measurement errors, and the use of low pass filters would still be a good method for cleaning up the DC supply, both at the front of the input and at the output of your motor setup (your motor's output, when rectified and filtered, becomes a DC supply).

                    So what is the correct DC input current draw with the cap and 200W lamp loads I wonder.

                    Thanks for your kind efforts and sharing,
                    Gyula
                    Hi Gyula

                    I know about the diode in all mosfet but the difference is with the zener diode of the 12n50c3 and the regular diode of the ixfh20n60.
                    I have changed the mosfet and the effect is completely gone.
                    But I will not give up. Some people have been at it for 30 years. This is only my sixth motor and I am getting better,... I hope.

                    Thanks for the good words.

                    Robert

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by voltan View Post
                      hi robert.it might be worth trying this on both fets.either take power off the caps or let em fill up to the point when they hardly conduct and take power off somewhere else,maybe try the fwbr with one ac leg connected to each drain .cheers.
                      Hi.
                      I have tried connecting one ac leg to each mosfet drain and the drag is awfull.
                      I am now building a circuit to control where on the mwm wave I take off power and also how long I take it. One 555 for delaying and one for the duration of the pulse.

                      Thanks for your input,

                      Robert

                      Comment


                      • smee again.2 posts ago,when you say the effect is gone,do you mean no power at the fwbr.if so it would suggest,if not confirm all of the spike energy is looping back to the power supply through the regular diode in the ixfhs.(the way your coil chains are connected to + is perfect for looping to the input), but if your after output or max output that path has to be blocked. i haven't had much experience with fets but i would assume a diode between ground and source would cure this,but there may be implications or anomalies with the fets that i'm not aware of. if they're ok with this then the revised collection scheme in my last pic would be worth a try .
                        aweful drag as you mention,as discussed here recently,is likely a mix of transformer/motor/generator functions,(changing magnetic fields -current flow in the off coil-lenz effect-etc),as opposed to just collecting the spike energy(buggerall drag).so far it's better to collect off each coil chain individually,and preferably both for max output for now.down the track if you can get real OU you might be able to loop 1 coil chain,for a self runner and draw power off the other.nice setup for trying different combinations.
                        i'm not a fan of fwbrs as you cop diode losses twice.am a big fan of 1n5189s but they are only rated to 40v.my next pick would be fr302s.starting to waffle now.
                        stick with it.history has shown that imagination and dedication lead to breakthroughs. cheers
                        Last edited by voltan; 11-11-2014, 09:33 AM. Reason: details

                        Comment


                        • Hi.
                          Sorry I've been gone so long and won't be back for a while.
                          Just got out of the hospital but still on intravenous antibiotics at home for
                          six more weeks.

                          Nothing new for my experiments.


                          Robert

                          Comment


                          • Hi Robert,

                            I wish you a quick and safe recovery.

                            Take care.

                            Gyula

                            Comment


                            • Thanks Gyula

                              Robert

                              Comment


                              • Question for P.Lindemann

                                Hi Peter,

                                I have watched your very interesting videos. I have a question about the switched reluctance motor tests you show in the demo video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuZ3...Y&spfreload=10).

                                When you brake the motor the current goes down. I understand the BEMF principles. But how can the current decrease with reduced speed? I mean, the frequency gets lower, the coil inductance decreases and the pulse width gets wider because the reed stays closed longer, meaning more current. Or does the pulse width stay constant for some reason in this setup?

                                regards,
                                Mario

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