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**future pather** · 08-20-2007, 04:50 PM

Peter,

No problem. It was obviously a deviation from the thread topic, but I felt your words:

dishonesty will be out of fashion. . . people will want to live together in peace and cooperation.

Caring for others, speaking your truth, and living in integrity is the beginning of this future.

allowed for what I wrote.

I would never want to take away from what you are doing with motors, etc. God knows I can't!

But the clips I posted give what I feel is an excellent overview of a big problem when it comes to world economics and freedom AND it provides a solution. The speaker seems very confident it would work. That positive message seemed worthwhile to me but if you don't feel "attracted" to checking it out, I hold nothing against you

-Jessica

**nali2001** · 08-20-2007, 05:57 PM

**nali2001** · 08-20-2007, 06:05 PM

Other permanent magnet reluctance machine

Other permanent magnet reluctance machine

http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/Gen/002.jpg
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/Gen/003.jpg
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/Gen/001.jpg

Steven

**Peter Lindemann** · 08-20-2007, 06:57 PM

Ecklin designs and more...

Steven,

Thanks for putting these links up for people to study. The problem with most of the Ecklin designs is that they DON'T work the way Ecklin imagined they would. He was primarily a theorist, not a model maker. He did NOT test most of these designs. During this period, I was working with Bruce DePalma and Michael Knox in Santa Barbara, California. Either Michael Knox and I or someone else in Bruce's larger circle tried every one of these designs. Many of them, especially the ones with the AC coil and the DC coil on the same piece of iron, don't work! The DC field is too strong in the local area and even opening and closing the gap with the rotating iron piece causes almost NO FLUX CHANGE in the AC coil. In some cases, special changes had to be made to the circuits to make them work at all. But then it wasn't an Ecklin design anymore.

The second set of designs you posted are much better, but they too have loading sensitivities. If you put a simple resistive load on the output of these generators, they experience much of the same back EMF drags as a standard generator. Lenz Law is tricky to side step, but it can be done. If you diode block the electricity generation on the magnetizing cycle and only draw power out of the coil during the field collapse, the system works better. With other minor modifications, the performance of this style of generator can be excellent.

Its good for some of the newbies in the group to understand that the ideas I am presenting are well established in the literature, and people have been working on solving these efficiency issues for decades.

Thanks again for the links. This is the material people should be thinking about and experimenting with if the cost of electricity is to be reduced to a tenth of its current cost.

Peter

**nali2001** · 08-20-2007, 10:24 PM

Ecklin's real work

Thanks for the reply Peter,
I have always wondered if Ecklin actually build/test 'his' devices.
I mean look at this one:
http://www.rexresearch.com/ecklin/ecklin9.jpg
I mean the thing is 12" wide and 36" !! High, totally made from laminates and needs an air gap of less! than 0.003". There is no way in life that one can build that in their garage, that big and accurate fully from laminates...! So I always wonder with these descriptions If he really did test these things. But from what you said I guess he did not. Ok, a real motor factory will have no problem with this motor they just stamp 1 million laminated shapes for you once the dies are made. But it will probably be beyond the financial capability of a home experimenter.

As you can see half down this page, the EBM machine uses also a reluctance switching principle.
Leslie Szabo, Energy by Motion, over-unity, free energy generator

http://www.rexresearch.com/szabo/wo9213.jpg

EBM (Energy By Motion) machine

Steven

**Peter Lindemann** · 08-21-2007, 01:38 AM

Don't Misunderstand Me

Originally posted by future pather View Post

Peter,

No problem. It was obviously a deviation from the thread topic, but I felt your words:

dishonesty will be out of fashion. . . people will want to live together in peace and cooperation.

Caring for others, speaking your truth, and living in integrity is the beginning of this future.

allowed for what I wrote.

I would never want to take away from what you are doing with motors, etc. God knows I can't!

But the clips I posted give what I feel is an excellent overview of a big problem when it comes to world economics and freedom AND it provides a solution. The speaker seems very confident it would work. That positive message seemed worthwhile to me but if you don't feel "attracted" to checking it out, I hold nothing against you

-Jessica

Jessica,

My comments DID allow for what you wrote. The intent of my comments was not to suggest anything inappropriate on your part. I was merely saying that "I don't do politics". In my "IDEAL WORLD" I would outlaw politics as a profession, but I don't think the world is about to be remade in a way that I like. In the meantime, it is necessary for each of us to find our own "path of integrity" and do what is "ours to do".

I honor your path, even as I honor my own.

Please feel free to comment as "the spirit moves you". I'll respond in kind.

Peter

**future pather** · 08-21-2007, 02:56 AM

**sykavy** · 08-22-2007, 01:08 AM

Originally posted by Peter Lindemann View Post

Dear Sykavy,

You asked "Could the gap be wider if we made a stronger electro-magnetic pulse?"

Yes, in the motors I have now, the gap is wider. The motor still runs but is weaker. Making the magnetic field stronger makes the motor run faster and stronger, but also draws more electricity to accomplish this.

The purpose of making the air-gap smaller is to make the motor run faster and stronger WITHOUT drawing more electricity to do it. This makes the production of mechanical energy MORE EFFICIENT.

I hope this helps you understand the relationship between the power of the motor, the air-gap, and the efficiency of mechanical energy production better.

Peter

Yeah thanks.

**nali2001** · 08-22-2007, 12:39 PM

Air gaps

Well Sykavy,
small air gaps are indeed much desired. But if you go too crazy with them they can in my opinion become problematic. When you want to get in the range of like 0.02mm you really stet the bat pretty high for yourself. Everything must be machined with top notch precision, and also you must start to think about what the eventual bearing wear will be doing, also metal expansion due to to heating will become considerable. Stator vibration and stretching will also now be an issue.

Now there is another way to combat the need for insane small air gaps. And that is to increase the 'contact' or 'pole' surface. The longer the total pole the more interaction surface you have.

Just look at this render and see the small pole surface:
Infolytica � Gallery � TEAM problem 24 - Nonlinear Time-Transient Rotational Test Rig

Now compare that with the stator of a real use reluctance motor:
http://www.eti.uni-karlsruhe.de/wolf...res/Laufer.jpg

Steven

**sykavy** · 08-23-2007, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by nali2001 View Post

Well Sykavy,
small air gaps are indeed much desired. But if you go too crazy with them they can in my opinion become problematic. When you want to get in the range of like 0.02mm you really stet the bat pretty high for yourself. Everything must be machined with top notch precision, and also you must start to think about what the eventual bearing wear will be doing, also metal expansion due to to heating will become considerable. Stator vibration and stretching will also now be an issue.

Now there is another way to combat the need for insane small air gaps. And that is to increase the 'contact' or 'pole' surface. The longer the total pole the more interaction surface you have.

Just look at this render and see the small pole surface:
Infolytica � Gallery � TEAM problem 24 - Nonlinear Time-Transient Rotational Test Rig

Now compare that with the stator of a real use reluctance motor:
http://www.eti.uni-karlsruhe.de/wolf...res/Laufer.jpg

Steven

Would the solenoid piston set up used by teal be an easier feat?

He had two coils in his drawings and I was thinking that maybe he had a set up like a steam engine piston. A coil that drew the piston up and then a coil to pull the same piston down in the same solenoid ( maybe that is why they were so long). By having a constant magnetic circle around the piston then friction would be low, because it would have equal pull on all sides keeping the piston from scraping the sides during the relax time.

**nali2001** · 08-23-2007, 02:44 PM

Designs

Hi Sykavy,
Well I don't really know if the solenoid piston design has significant advantages over the 'normal' switched reluctance motor design. On the one hand one might think there is better flux interactions since the coil encapsulates the piston core. But on the other hand you must have some support system to guide the piston, which results in noise, losses and wear.

There are so many different types of Reluctance motor design out there you wont' believe. Here for example is an interesting addition:
http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/...126/4/385/_pdf

Also another method for reducing the air gap size is having 'slots' in the stator and rotor core elements, so that the rotating parts kind of interlock or 'mix' with each other.
Like this:
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/SlotRotor/1.jpg
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/SlotRotor/2.jpg
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/SlotRotor/3.jpg

Steven

**nali2001** · 08-23-2007, 02:58 PM

Tesla Switch

Dear Peter,
I apologize for this somewhat off topic post, but since you and Bedini have history you might know a thing or two about the 'Tesla Switch' and alike systems. I think these systems might be a good addition for these No-back emf motor designs especially since they can be driven like dc low ohmic induction loads. Not much input is lost in the form of heat and such.

For those who do not know what I am talking about read:
THE TESLA SWITCH
And
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/D3.pdf
Start at page 25 (to 36)

So this post is kind of a double post. On the one hand I see the Tesla Switch having huge advantages, but on the other hand, except for the Bedini page there is no real info to be found anywhere about this system... Why? well Peter what is your take on the Tesla Switch, and in case Bedini is reading this, please feel free to jump in.

Thanks!
Staven

**Peter Lindemann** · 08-23-2007, 03:30 PM

Let's start a new thread...

Originally posted by nali2001 View Post

Dear Peter,
I apologize for this somewhat off topic post, but since you and Bedini have history you might know a thing or two about the 'Tesla Switch' and alike systems. I think these systems might be a good addition for these No-back emf motor designs especially since they can be driven like dc low ohmic induction loads. Not much input is lost in the form of heat and such.

For those who do not know what I am talking about read:
THE TESLA SWITCH
And
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/D3.pdf
Start at page 25 (to 36)

So this post is kind of a double post. On the one hand I see the Tesla Switch having huge advantages, but on the other hand, except for the Bedini page there is no real info to be found anywhere about this system... Why? well Peter what is your take on the Tesla Switch, and in case Bedini is reading this, please feel free to jump in.

Thanks!
Staven

Steven,

This topic is very important to consider, but is really OFF TOPIC for this forum, since it requires multiple posts to thoroughly discuss it.

Start a new thread and I'll address the answers there.

Peter

**nali2001** · 08-23-2007, 05:21 PM

Tesla Switch

Ok thanks, the Tesla Switch topic is now going on(starting) at:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...la-switch.html

Steven

**sykavy** · 08-24-2007, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by nali2001 View Post

Hi Sykavy,
Well I don't really know if the solenoid piston design has significant advantages over the 'normal' switched reluctance motor design. On the one hand one might think there is better flux interactions since the coil encapsulates the piston core. But on the other hand you must have some support system to guide the piston, which results in noise, losses and wear.

There are so many different types of Reluctance motor design out there you wont' believe. Here for example is an interesting addition:
http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/...126/4/385/_pdf

Also another method for reducing the air gap size is having 'slots' in the stator and rotor core elements, so that the rotating parts kind of interlock or 'mix' with each other.
Like this:
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/SlotRotor/1.jpg
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/SlotRotor/2.jpg
http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/SlotRotor/3.jpg

Steven

Hi Steve
You know I was thinking of the slot idea on my own, but I didn't know how to explain it.
What would be the air gap around these slots be?

Plus it looks a lot more complicated to make than just a simple flat air gap. You were saying that one would need a professional die-cast for Peter's air gap but wouldnt slots make it even more complicated?

What if the air gap was filled by a metal/plastic mixed plate. I mean iron filings mix with apoxy and then slowly shaved down till the perfect air gap was reached.

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