Electric Motor Secrets

[Jetijs]

Peter,
did you mean something like this?





If yes, then I must say, that this approach would be a bit tricky to make, because the slot in that plastic piece must the be very precise. If it will be too wide, then the startor will move inside it. If the slot is too narrow, there will be problems getting the startor inside. This design is harder to make (at least with tools available to me). My previous design is easier to build (at least for me ). I think I will stick to my design and see how it works. When it will be assembled I will just need to attach the coil to a battery and see if the startor is moving or not. If everything will be ok, then we know, that this design works
Thank you for your support
Gatis

[adam ant]

i just received my tachometer today, so i will run some tests on this motor before i start cutting anything. this way i wil have figures to compair against. i had to jerry rig the connection to an extension cord, when i pulgged it in, it purred like a kitten. but after a few minutes, it started getting really hot and then vibrated hard. i held a screw driver over the coil and i could feel the magnetic vibrations without even touching the motor.

[Jetijs]

Bryan,
no problems, you can use my images if you want.
About your motor, did you mean something like this?

Because at first I had the same idea. But you can see how the flux flows in such arrangement. some of the flux bypasses the ball in the middle and flows around it. I used vizimag trial software to simulate this. See how the flux flows without that adittional piece:

You can see, that the flux lines are more dense and compact and all the flux flows through the ball in the middle.
But see what happens if you add an adittional coil:

I really don't know if that's better
Thank you,
Gatis

[adam ant]

i had mentioned this before, an "H" or "8" style motor, i was just told that i need to experiment.

if im not mistaken, arent your + and - in the wrong spot? wont that be displayed at the ends of the coil? or is that your dipiction of the winds?



the motor that i aquired is exactly the way i shaded in your picture above, but before i got that motor, my idea was similar to your 3rd graphic, circular rotor, and "8" style, double coiled.

here is my take on your magnetic flux lines



NOTE: the straight lines are only there to show direction, the thumbnails are too small to draw all of the exact detail. yellow would be positive+ red is negative-.

you see, i believe there are TWO different kinds of magnetic flux (actually three) you have the positive, and negative. (and a nuetral) just like a yin yang, there is always white/black, positive/negative, good/bad, and this applies to magnetism, electricity, gravity, superconductivity, manifestation (intent), and anything else in nature.

-bryan


btw, this is how i see a bar magnets flux

[Jetijs]

Bryan,
the + and - in my pictures represent the coil wire windings in cross section.

[adam ant]

ok, i thought that is what it was, but i want to be sure.
what do you think of my pics? (errr, your pics with my additions)

[Jetijs]

Bryan,
my english is not the best, I am not sure, that I understood your picture and explanation completely. What did you mean with the red + and the yellow -? Were those supposed to be coil windings? The flux in my pictures is represented by those lines. The arrow shows the direction, but the line density shows the strength of the magnetic field - the more lines, the stronger the field also the darker the red color. There is much interesting stuff about magnets, for example how the real field around a permanent magnet looks like. In school we are shown the experiment with magnet and iron fillings and how they form lines of force around magnet. But there is a theory that these lines are not exactly what they ares supposed to be, because in a magnetic field, the iron fillings become a magnet themselves and can freely move to a needed position. Actually a field around a magnet is a bit different. The magnetic lines come out of the N pole of the magnet, but instead of going in the S pole, they go to the middle of the magnet. The same happens to the other pole. To see if it is really so, I bought a magnetic field viewing film and put it on a strong neodymium magnet. See for yourself:

This happens because the small particles in that film cannot freely move, only turn around themselves. That shows the real field. This is the principe how the Perendev motor should work.
I do not want to speculate about this and also this theme is offtopic for this thread. Lets talk about that in my perendev motor topic
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...dev-motor.html

[adam ant]

you are right, i dont want to take away from this thread.

but my questions to Mr. Lindeman (from above) still are valid to this thread.

[Peter Lindemann]

Welcome to the Forum

First I would like to thank Peter Lindemann for releasing the DVD. I saw about 45 minutes last night and got me very excited. I can not wait to go back home and finish it. I am very interested in magnetics and am reading whatever I can get my hands on. I have decided to build a motor with circuit of Peter suggestion posted on "Rotary Attraction Motor". Peter, I would really appreciate if you can tell me which materials (for rotor/motor) would be best suited for maximum torque? In the design you mention Iron. Since there are different types of Iron; is there specific requirements (for Iron) to achieve the maximum torque? I am an engineer and have access to machines that can hold tolerances up to 0.05mm (per side). I really wanted to test some of this theory to get a better understanding of magnetics.
Peter release of this DVD should be applauded. I understand the claims of some people that have worked on this and I agree with them. But I still think that the right thing to do is to give people the knowledge and not let it die with you. Get people excited, together we can achieve much more then individually could ever have hoped for.

Dear bmind,

The best type of iron for the rotor and stator is cast iron. This is "true cast iron" and not re-cast with a mish-mash of steel and other grades mixed in. Real cast iron loses 100% of its magnetism after a magnet is withdrawn from contact, and this is the most important feature you are looking for.

Thanks for your enthusiasm and support. As you build your model, stay involved in this forum so others can see your process.

Thanks,

Peter

[Peter Lindemann]

Precisely.....almost

Peter,
did you mean something like this?





If yes, then I must say, that this approach would be a bit tricky to make, because the slot in that plastic piece must the be very precise. If it will be too wide, then the startor will move inside it. If the slot is too narrow, there will be problems getting the startor inside. This design is harder to make (at least with tools available to me). My previous design is easier to build (at least for me ). I think I will stick to my design and see how it works. When it will be assembled I will just need to attach the coil to a battery and see if the startor is moving or not. If everything will be ok, then we know, that this design works
Thank you for your support
Gatis

Jetijs,

Yes, this is almost what I had in mind. You are still bolting the whole assembly together and to the base plate with the same bolts. What I was trying to describe was a system that bolts the bottom piece directly to the base plate. Then, if the slot is just slightly over-sized, the stator sections drop right in. Then, if the top piece has a slight clearance to the bottom piece when the stator is in place, then the clamping action of tightening the top down holds the whole thing in place. The top piece is designed to bolt to the bottom piece independently of the bottom piece's mounting to the base plate. The assemblies can be held together with brass hardware so the whole frame is non-magnetic. I have used systems like this in other models I have built and they work very well.

But like you said, the system you proposed in your previous post will probably work, and should be tried first.

Keep up the great work!

Peter

[Peter Lindemann]

Induction Motor

i just aquired a VERY old AC motor(pre 1940's, cloth covered wire) that has a layout almost identical to Mr. Lindemanns except instead of a "X" rotor it has a cylinder. the stator is almost the same, and even the coil is placed in the same spot.

another difference is that the iron stator "arms" completely surrounds the rotor.

what advantage is there of an "X" over a cylinder? i would assume that a cylinder would have a more constant turn.

the reason i ask, is because i was considering having the rotor machined into an "X", and the closed part of the stator trimmed a bit, but i wanted to confirm with Mr. Lindemann before i alter this motor.


Jetijs, i hope you dont mind, i used you pic to illustrate the motor i have.
here is the picture



if this is not better, then i will cut the yellow and blue sections away. and rewind the coil. actually, rewinding the coil the way it is is extremely hard. i would have to feed the wire through the small opening for every single wind.

thoughts??

-bryan

Bryan,

From what I can tell of your description, it sounds like you have an AC Induction Motor. The age is not relevant, as this is a Tesla design from the 1880's. They build motors exactly like this today.

This motor produces a "rotating magnetic field" and drags the rotor around behind it by a combination of induced currents and hysteresis. In spite of the physical design similarities, the operating principle is totally different. Attempts to modify this motor to run on the new principles discussed in this forum will require a lot of work.

They would include modifying the shape of the stator sections where they interact with the rotor and replacing the rotor with an iron rotor with a close gap. Plus, a commutator still needs to be added to switch the stator fields on and off at the appropriate times, along with the switching circuit and energy recover system.

So, it can be done.

Glad to see you are going to build a model!

Peter

[adam ant]

thanks Mr. Lindemann for your input.,

the commutator shouldnt be a problem, and i just received enough parts for the circuit.

cutting the stator will be alright, the cost of a new laser cut one will be my motivation !! this will make rewinding the coil much easier as well.

the rotor is going to be an issue though, but i do believe it is already iron.
the air gap is so tight that i cannot push a piece of paper through it. there are VERY tiny brass shims that maintain its integrity, and the bearings still seem to be in excellent shape. they are positively lubricated by cloth discs that are on the shaft.

-bryan

[FEstudent]

some questions

I bought the dvd and thought it was really interesting. I watched it many
times and learned a lot. Here are some questions I have for Peter Lindemann
or anybody who wants to respond. Thanks.

1. Is the rotating attraction motor superior to the Teal solenoid motor in torque?

2. What is a suitable material for the cylinder of the solenoid design?
Teflon? Nylon? Aluminum? Does the iron piston actually drag against or touch the iron jacket when it is folded under the coil in the Teal design?
This would help to support the piston.

3. This may be a dumb question, but in the video it is said that some DC
motors get an efficiency in the 95% area. Would it be possible to capture
any significant amount of inductive kick back from these motors to obtain
over 100% since we are only a few percent away?

4. The snubbers in the Teal motor seem to indicate that brief pulses were
applied, but doesn't the saturation of the stator and piston pose an upper
limit as to how strong the field can get, or can this be exceeded buy the
high ampere-turns?

5. Was the COP and efficiency ever measured on the solenoid motor
in the dvd? I was anticipating this but it was not shown. Can you give
details on this?

6. I think that an attracting keeper type of design,where a keeper moves only in a straight line, with a gap that would close to a distance of zero would be very strong wouldn't it?

[Jetijs]

Peter,
when you are showing the diagram of a double S rotor setup at the end of the video, I noticed, that the rotor is a little bit thicker than the startor. Is this crucial? Is the rotor thicker because that way it can better absorb those stray magnetic fields on the end of the startor piece?

EDIT: One more question for you Peter, what wire gauge would you recommend for the coil? All I got is AWG 21 wire, but if it's too thin, then I will order a bigger gauge wire, but it usually takes some weeks to deliver the wire form USA (its actually cheaper to buy these wires from ebay.com than to buy them here in my country). Then I could order the wire and it would arrive about as soon as I have finished the work with the motor. I have already made the bearing support blocks, the distancer cylinders and the base plate. There's some problems with the rotor, because when drawing those CAD files, I did not take into account the laser bean cut width. So when I drew those holes with a diameter 4.2mm, the actually came out 4.5mm, that means I will have to drill the holes bigger, because the 4mm diameter bolts are too small and the 5mm diameter bolts are too big for these holes. But that should not be a problem to do.

Thanks,
Gatis

[Bah]

Eric,

...It is well established that the energy conversion rate for the direct induction machine is 746 watts = 1 horse power = 550 foot-pounds per second of mechanical energy...

Dear Dr. Lindemann,

You state the above as if it were an arbitrarily-discovered characteristic of a certain type of motor. The relationship between Watts and Horsepower is by definition of the units themselves and has nothing to do with any particular machine. Is it your intention to confuse the reader or are you really that confused yourself?

No matter the machine, the efficiency, whatever...a Horsepower is 746W...they are two different units used for expressing power and have a fixed constant relationship like feet and inches, grams and ounces, etc. Your statement is very odd and could be rather confusing to the uneducated.

Bah