Electric Motor Secrets

[sykavy]

Yes, lighty
I was thinkink about that too, that way I would not have to use two battery sets. Also there is some radiant charge in these BEMF impulses that are going into the charging batteries, so there is also the battery conditioning process happening, just like with Bedini SSG. This means that if I swap these batteries around for some cycles, the battery capacity should increase to some degree.

congrads on your great work! What material did you use for your rotor?

Ive been looking for 100% iron for my project but can't find it anywhere!! I did some reading and iron doesn't hold the magnatism while steel does. In the SG motor, John Bedini uses welding rods, are they close to iron. I think they are soft steel. Do they hold magnatism? I'm really shocked to find it soooo hard to find some pure iron. It just seems so weird.

Ps Peter,
In one of your videos you spoke about black sand that can be molded in plastic and it magnatizes and releases magnatism very quickly with no retention of magnatism. Would this material be good for iron parts of my motor? At least to enclose the coil?

[gabriolaman]

well if your looking for iron you might try your local metal working company they might know where to get if they dont got it some times high schools even got some or colleges if they dont they might know where to get it

[Peter Lindemann]

Almost Right

You could also use isolated strands to charge the capacitor and then discharge it to the main power battery. Just a thought.

Lighty and Jetijs,

The output on the isolated windings can be put directly back to the front of the circuit to off-set the input. That is the purpose of the isolated output arrangement. That is why I wanted you to test it out and get it working. You can test this for yourself.

Place your 10,000uf capacitor in parallel with the input battery and isolate it from the battery with one diode on the negative line with the cathode toward the battery. Then just connect the plus and minus from the isolated output directly to the capacitor plus and minus. This is the arrangement Lighty asked me about earlier. The energy recovered from the collapsing field charges the capacitor above the input battery thereby cutting off the input current from the supply. The next power pulse will first drain the excess recovered energy from the capacitor and then draw more from the battery to complete the pulse. This is the method to run the motor on full power but only draw the amount equal to the "losses" from the supply. As the power of these systems goes up, it becomes impossible to charge batteries with the recovered energy, so it must be recycled immediately. This is how to do it. When you can recycle 80% of the energy from each pulse, the motor will run at full power on 20% from the supply.

Jetijs, when you have the new rotor pieces cut, put smaller alignment holes out in the arms and use brass hardware to hold them together. Make the pieces over-sized and carefully machine them down in your lathe. Try to set the air-gap to .002 inches, or less. Also, mount the new rotor on a longer shaft so there is sufficient length for the rotor, bearings, commutator wheel and output pull to take power off for mechanical load testing.

You are making great progress. Keep up the great work.

Peter

[elias]

buying a motorcycle engine

Dear Peter,

I was considering to buy a small motorcycle engine for modification. Do you recommend this approach? I wanted to see if I could build a teal attraction engine by modifying it.

Thanks
Elias

[Peter Lindemann]

You Can Try It

Dear Peter,

I was considering to buy a small motorcycle engine for modification. Do you recommend this approach? I wanted to see if I could build a teal attraction engine by modifying it.

Thanks
Elias

Elias,

You can try it, but I think that this approach will present a lot of problems. It would give you a good bearing system and a balanced crank and piston. That is what is good about it. But the cylinder wall will act like a big shorted turn, so the magnetic structure will have to be mounted some distance from the block. However you approach this, it will require precision machine work. Do you have access to a mill and a lathe?

If you want to try it, I've got some ideas on how to set it up so you get two power strokes per revolution.

If you are going to purchase the small engine block, don't spend a lot of money.

Peter

[Peter Lindemann]

Don't Use Black Sand

congrads on your great work! What material did you use for your rotor?

Ive been looking for 100% iron for my project but can't find it anywhere!! I did some reading and iron doesn't hold the magnatism while steel does. In the SG motor, John Bedini uses welding rods, are they close to iron. I think they are soft steel. Do they hold magnatism? I'm really shocked to find it soooo hard to find some pure iron. It just seems so weird.

Ps Peter,
In one of your videos you spoke about black sand that can be molded in plastic and it magnatizes and releases magnatism very quickly with no retention of magnatism. Would this material be good for iron parts of my motor? At least to enclose the coil?

Sykavy,

Look for Cast Iron. If it's pure, it releases its magnetism completely, and can be machined to any shape. But like Lighty says, stay away from Italian Cast Iron, because it is all "re-cast" material and does retain its magnetism slightly. I also have some direct experience with Italian Cast Iron and don't recommend it. Here in the USA, Cast Iron works fine.

Black Sand only magnetizes to levels equivalent to about 35% of iron, so does not magnetize to sufficient levels for making attraction motors.

Peter

[Jetijs]

As the power of these systems goes up, it becomes impossible to charge batteries with the recovered energy, so it must be recycled immediately.
Peter

Peter, what do you mean with that? Why would it be impossible to charge the batteries with the recoverable energy if we use a more powerful motor?

Speaking about core material, I experimented a little with some black sand material after I saw Peter talking about that in one of the videos. We actually do not have access to the real black sand here in Latvia, because there is no gold mining business here. But I searched around the web for the content of black sand. I found that it basically consists of two main materials - magnetite and hematite. Both are iron oxydes. I could get them from a local chemist shop as powder. I tried various ratios and resin types. I found that magnetite is attracted by a magnet more than hematite, almost like iron fillings. Also the best resin type I found is that type they use in fiberglass molding, making car bumpers, small boats and so on. With this resin I could add more magnetite/hematite powder and the mix would not turn out so britle. Also that stuff is easy to machine afterwards. But I must agree to Peter, taht althought there is a little drag if I use this core material for a generator coil, there is also a little voltage generated. The same goes if I use that kind of coil for a electromagnet. This stuff may have a high magnetizing/demagnetizing rate, but it can not magnetize to the level of an ordinary iron. Still, that was an interesting experience



sykavy, I dont really know what grade of steel am I using, but ir works well. I will clarify this when I meet my laser cutting guy

Jetijs

[Jan H]

about iron

I wonder what metal characteristic makes for a good rotor, it has to lose all its magnetism right? The biggest diffrence i see between steel and pure iron is the carbon content.
But cast iron holds even more carbon, so it would perform even worse? Since peter says that cast iron works great I'm confused.

Could it have something to do with the crystalline structure? If it does than heat treatment could change the properties.

All i know is that pure iron is VERY rare, because it does not have a lot of purposes. The next best thing would then be S235JR (Fe-360) wich is just plain old construction steel.

[Peter Lindemann]

Bigger Motors...

Peter, what do you mean with that? Why would it be impossible to charge the batteries with the recoverable energy if we use a more powerful motor?

Jetijs

Jetijs,

For little motors, charging and discharging batteries is fine. But what happens when the motors are 100kw or 1000kw? Charging batteries with the recovered energy becomes extremely challenging, not to mention the size and weight of the batteries. If the recovered energy can be put right back into the supply and seamlessly reused, it is a more practical solution, even if the total amount of energy recovered is 20% lower.

Every design has an economy of scale. What works in larger scale systems is quite often very different than what works in the desk top.

Peter

[Jetijs]

Peter, that is what I was thinkink, but I thought that maybe there is something else. It makes sense. For example, if we have a bigger motor and are recovering say 10 amps, that means the charging battery bank should be at least 200 amphours large to charge them safe at this current (C20 rate). That is a BIG battery.

[sykavy]

Peter, what do you mean with that? Why would it be impossible to charge the batteries with the recoverable energy if we use a more powerful motor?

Speaking about core material, I experimented a little with some black sand material after I saw Peter talking about that in one of the videos. We actually do not have access to the real black sand here in Latvia, because there is no gold mining business here. But I searched around the web for the content of black sand. I found that it basically consists of two main materials - magnetite and hematite. Both are iron oxydes. I could get them from a local chemist shop as powder. I tried various ratios and resin types. I found that magnetite is attracted by a magnet more than hematite, almost like iron fillings. Also the best resin type I found is that type they use in fiberglass molding, making car bumpers, small boats and so on. With this resin I could add more magnetite/hematite powder and the mix would not turn out so britle. Also that stuff is easy to machine afterwards. But I must agree to Peter, taht althought there is a little drag if I use this core material for a generator coil, there is also a little voltage generated. The same goes if I use that kind of coil for a electromagnet. This stuff may have a high magnetizing/demagnetizing rate, but it can not magnetize to the level of an ordinary iron. Still, that was an interesting experience



sykavy, I dont really know what grade of steel am I using, but ir works well. I will clarify this when I meet my laser cutting guy

Jetijs

Diekujeme!
I have just met a friend that may be able to help me. He told me that if I just make what I need in foam rubber he may be able to cast it in 100% iron or close to it maybe 70%.

[sykavy]

Sykavy,

Look for Cast Iron. If it's pure, it releases its magnetism completely, and can be machined to any shape. But like Lighty says, stay away from Italian Cast Iron, because it is all "re-cast" material and does retain its magnetism slightly. I also have some direct experience with Italian Cast Iron and don't recommend it. Here in the USA, Cast Iron works fine.

Black Sand only magnetizes to levels equivalent to about 35% of iron, so does not magnetize to sufficient levels for making attraction motors.

Peter

Thanks Peter!

BTW you mentioned that there maybe a possible to short out by having the steel inside the coil?
you said: "But the cylinder wall will act like a big shorted turn, so the magnetic structure will have to be mounted some distance from the block."

What does this mean?

Before my friend casts it, I 'd like to know if there needs to be a distance around the coil and the iron keeper around the coil.

BTW I also have access to a lathe but no pure iron to lathe. I'll have to melt-down some old drain pipes or car radiators that is why i plan on casting it.

Will the drawing on your DVD about the Teal Motor due? Also I assume a small air gap on the botom part of the iron/magnetic enclosing the coil as to complete the magnetic circuit.

[Peter Lindemann]

Do NOT cast your own Iron!!!

Thanks Peter!

BTW you mentioned that there maybe a possible to short out by having the steel inside the coil?
you said: "But the cylinder wall will act like a big shorted turn, so the magnetic structure will have to be mounted some distance from the block."

What does this mean?

Before my friend casts it, I 'd like to know if there needs to be a distance around the coil and the iron keeper around the coil.

BTW I also have access to a lathe but no pure iron to lathe. I'll have to melt-down some old drain pipes or car radiators that is why i plan on casting it.

Will the drawing on your DVD about the Teal Motor due? Also I assume a small air gap on the botom part of the iron/magnetic enclosing the coil as to complete the magnetic circuit.

Sykavy,

CAST IRON is an industrially available metal. Whether or not it is readily available near you is beside the point. That you do not know this, or even know how to find out, is a reflection on your general lack of scientific knowledge. Even the assumption on your part that you could some how make your own "cast iron" by melting down "old drain pipes or car radiators" shows a complete lack of understanding.

Just to clarify, I am not suggesting that you cast your own iron.

This forum is about experimental electric motor building. Casting your own metal alloys is an experiment in metallurgy. That you would even suggest this is shocking to me. Your lack of knowledge about electric motors and electronics in general is profound, but the idea that you would attempt to begin a project like this by casting your own iron core is beyond my comprehension.

Over the last 6 months, I have been extremely patient and polite with you, but I am going to draw the line right here. I will not offer you any help with such a project. If you attempt any of this, you are totally on your own. I will not be drawn into a discussion about casting techniques, raw materials stocks, fluxes, slag, molds, or the like. Any posts on these subjects in this forum will be deleted.

The scientific knowledge base and engineering skill set required for success in the project of building your own experimental electric motor is considerably beyond your current abilities. A reciprocating solenoid engine like Teal's is a complex electro-mechanical machine. Building one from scratch is very difficult. Building one by modifying an existing internal combustion engine is no less difficult. Please don't waste any money by starting a project you are unlikely to be able to finish successfully.

Peter

[Jetijs]

Peter,
while I am experimenting, I was wondering about one thing. In your videos I see, that when you slow your motor down, it consumes more current, but also the charging battery voltage increases more. That means if we are drawing more current, we also can get more back. But for example:


Here you see two current waveforms, the first one is the waveform of the motor running at full speed, second waveform shows what happens to current when the motor is loaded. So in both cases we can only get back the yellow part, right? no mater how long the pulse is. But why is it then, that we are getting more back, if we are drawing more prom the primary? I mean the rise times are the same in both cases, so must be also the recoverable energy ammount per pulse. Why is the battery charging more when the motor is loaded? I should look at the current waveform on the output when the motor is loaded
Thanks,
Jetijs

[lighty]

Place your 10,000uf capacitor in parallel with the input battery and isolate it from the battery with one diode on the negative line with the cathode toward the battery.

Um, if one puts a diode cathode on battery negative and diode anode on the negative side of the capacitor, wouldn't that block current from capacitor to battery?

Then just connect the plus and minus from the isolated output directly to the capacitor plus and minus.

I suppose one should connect recovery coil to capacitor with appropriate diode in between? Otherwise it wouldn't make sense (at least to me it wouldn't).