Electric Motor Secrets

[Eric]

I had a similar scenario working on my Newman Motor, however, did not continue to establish a circuit with numerous pulsing when the circuit is closed. The following is what I believe should be done:

In order to established a electromagnetic field in our motor, the on time pulse, I think would be significantly short. Maybe 1/1000 seconds if not more. Therefore, in that time of pulse, we should open and close the circuit as many possible times to get the inductive collapse. The more pressure I put on the shaft, the more pulses I put through and the more inductive collapse I am retrieving. If the shaft slows down, on my motor currently, I am getting a longer pulse than if it is at a higher speed. Plus, only one duty cycle of recycled BEMF.

I believe the energy coming out of the inductive collapse is greater than the pulse that originated it, true or false?

What I meant in rest position is that, when one set of coils are pulsing the other set of coil are in idle awaiting its turn. I did a video to show 2 coils pulsing systematically one after the other.

i will check on that tranny.

I will try to get some pics on the scope of my emitter to collector, once i have some stuff down and understood

very nice!! i little different approach than i was thinking, which is good! its nice to see your ideas, not just a reproduction of my ideas/answers.

so here is some more of my thoughts and then you can share what you think about it.
it looks like your getting closer to what i was suggesting in regards to 2 duty cycles. i believe we can break the process down into 2, well maybe 3 categories.
1. electrical
2. magnetic
3. mechanical

the first duty cycle i observe is a magnetic/mechanical one. or how long do we need a magnetetic field to pull the rotor into alignment.

the second duty cycle i see is an electrical/magnetic. or how much energy(electricity) do we need to create the magnetic pull.

when i look at a scope shot of my motor i notice that the time it takes for a field to build in the core is a lot quicker than the time needed to pull the rotor into alignment. also in my first motor i used an adjustable window with an optotrigger, this allowed better control to change the ontime in a 1 pulse process, and if you stick a filament light bulb on the kickback and open the ontime up a lot its easy to see that you still only get 1 short flash on the kickback bulb. i wasn't sure why until peter helped me better understand that the ontime and the collapse operate under different mathematical principals.

the ontime is easier, it operates under the simple formula V=IR so the voltage of your source and resistance of your motor coil combined with the "time" spent in the ontime phase will tell us how much energy we are paying for at the source. but what then?

once we have spent energy to build a field in the core of the motor and then precede to turn the switch "off", does the amount of energy collected(recycled) also follow V=IR? no. its math is a lot more complicated i believe it can be found in this book Lindsay: Solenoids & Electromagnets i am still rereading that book to get a better understanding of the math. but for now i think the important point is that the "rule" is completely different. as i understand it, the amount of energy returned is not a function of how long we run the ontime but instead its a function of how strong the magnetic field is (amperturns) when we kill the switch and the impedance of the motor coil plus the load the kickback is connected to. now consider that when you use a low gauge wire (say 18 gauge) and apply your source the rise time(time needed to raise/build a magnetic field) is incredibly short. 2 things can determine when this initial process is done.
1. the voltage of your source in conjunction with the resistance of your coil (v=ir) has achieved all the amps times the number of turns in your coil(amperturns) it can. or 2. your core material cant accept anymore magnetic field energy(is saturated).

once this point has been reached "no more energy can be collected when you kill the switch" so if the ontime is left on longer than this point the, field is maxed, and is no longer "storing" more energy, all you are doing is allowing more(exess) amps to travel freely through the coil to drain/short your source. when this is understood you might be able to see what i mean by 2 duty cycles.
what you want to do is find a balance of how much time(energy=amps*time) is needed to build the field to its max then kill the switch and collect/convert as much "stored magnetic energy" into generated electricity back to the system. to answer another question of yours. where you believe you are getting more energy from the kickback than what you put into the ontime, the answer is no. the electric circuit used to "run" the motor is/was never intended to be cop>1 (overunity) the magic is not in the electric circuit. if you get 70% back that's pretty good! this is why i like to use the word "recycle" when talking about the electrical part. the "secret", if you want to call it that is in measuring how much "total" mechanical energy you can harvest from the shaft after you "recycle" the 70% back into the "runtime" process. if you want something more conceptual to read about recycling electrons then i would get this book "Energy Conserver Theory" by George Wiseman found here Energy Conserver Theory, Book 1 [4901.99.00.503] - $8.00 : Eagle-Research Store

so we have an electrical/magnetic proccess (duty cycle) or balancing the energy spent in the ontime with the energy recycled in the collapse
and a magnetic/mechanical proccess (duty cycle) time spent useing a magnetic field to pull in the rotor

so far i see a few ways to design a solution.
1. figure out how much time is needed to pull the rotor, calculated from rpms and the width of the rotor then figure out how many balanced ontime pulses you would need per rotor pass
2. figure out how much time is needed to pull the rotor, calculated from rpms and the width of the rotor and design the rotor width small/short enough that at a certain rpm the time spent in the rotor pass is short enough to handle one balanced ontime pulse
3. figure out how much time is needed to pull the rotor, calculated from rpms and the width of the rotor and design the coils resistance or impedance not sure which or both to slow or lengthen the rise time of the ontime.

anouther test you can try is to go back to just 2 poles/coils, ties both run batts in series for 24v, use each tranny circuit for each pole, you will want both reeds to fire at the same time(paralel) run only 1 pole/coil from the 24v source and dump the kickback into that big blue cap you have. the cap will now be source 2 for the other pole/coil so tie the second tranny circuit into the cap source and dump the kickback from the 2nd pole into a charge batt. in my weed wacker motor setup the rpms started out slow then increased more as the voltage on the cap got higher for the 2nd pole, this is like running a second motor on recycled energy alone and then you are also recycling some of the recycled energy again into a charge batt! after you play with
that you can come up with other ways to tie in the other poles.

hope that helps!
Eric

[uusedman]

very nice!! i little different approach than i was thinking, which is good! its nice to see your ideas, not just a reproduction of my ideas/answers.

so here is some more of my thoughts and then you can share what you think about it.
it looks like your getting closer to what i was suggesting in regards to 2 duty cycles. i believe we can break the process down into 2, well maybe 3 categories.
1. electrical
2. magnetic
3. mechanical

the first duty cycle i observe is a magnetic/mechanical one. or how long do we need a magnetetic field to pull the rotor into alignment.

the second duty cycle i see is an electrical/magnetic. or how much energy(electricity) do we need to create the magnetic pull.

I believe we are on the right track and the secret of magnet attraction is in collecting successfully and efficiently the B EMF.

The first and second duty cycle can be answered in terms of rotor angle degree according to the place of rotor to the stator. If pulsed too soon or too late, the rotor will only stagger to make a revolution. There is the point of bliss of attracting the rotary to its peak. Whatever the duration is for attracting the rotor into alignment, should be cut into pulse (DC - DC - on DC). For the duration of the coils to saturate is much shorter than the duration of on time. Once saturation happens, any more energy going to the coil will only dissipate into heat and be wasted, unless, if we pulse the coil just enough to meet the required energy to saturate and open circuit to let that B EMF to charging source or maybe to the second coil that is attracting the opposing rotor. The higher the RPM's the shorter is the time duration. The angle duration should be the same since it is based on magnetic attraction and not time constraint.

This circuit is in the starting stage and I have not tested it, however, the idea is when the transistor is closed, the coils oscillate pulses. The Cap is at 1 microF which is a little high if we going to get high number, maybe it should be in the nano Farads.

Back to the question that originated this discussion, how will the AMP react when we put a load with the ideas we presented?

so far i see a few ways to design a solution.
1. figure out how much time is needed to pull the rotor, calculated from rpms and the width of the rotor then figure out how many balanced ontime pulses you would need per rotor pass
2. figure out how much time is needed to pull the rotor, calculated from rpms and the width of the rotor and design the rotor width small/short enough that at a certain rpm the time spent in the rotor pass is short enough to handle one balanced ontime pulse
3. figure out how much time is needed to pull the rotor, calculated from rpms and the width of the rotor and design the coils resistance or impedance not sure which or both to slow or lengthen the rise time of the ontime.

hope that helps!
Eric

How can we start on the above? I can offer my simple and basic help.

P.S. A part from this circuit I copied from learning electronics manual. Open Source

[uusedman]

I think i made a mistake in the circuit, that 555 IC timer should control pulse into the base of the transistor and not the way it is now.

[Eric]

hehehe i am seeing a few to many "we's" here. i have had these ideas for well over a year now and i am following my own path based on observations i have seen in my experiments with my motors. it looks to me that you are jumping ahead again abit to fast. but thats up to you, i tried a 555 timer circuit awhile back but dropped it for a different idea. i wouldnt worry about the amp draw for the time being. there are a lot of other things that can be learned first with the basic circuit first. yes it may appear that your amps go up a bit when you load the shaft but to put it into perspective try comparing amp increase with your motor when you load the shaft with amp increase in a standard dc permanent mag motor when you load its shaft. the standard motors amp increase will still be far more dramatic. as to the duty cycle it seems like what your describing has more to do with timing than duty cycle. duty cycle deals with length and duration, not when/where to initiate/begin and collapse/end. but both are important parts. again i would make make sure to more thoroughly play with the basics. start with 1 steady ontime pulse, work on how to adjust the length and timing of this pulse and see how the motor behaves. its good to see you thinking this stuff through, now just try not to jump the gun and skip ahead. you dont have to build the perfect machine the first time. start with 1 pole then add poles and get all the poles running before worrying about chopping the dc.

keep in mind the secret is not really in the BEMF alone, its in understanding the relationship between the electric circuit, the magnetic circuit, and the mechanical energy can use.

cheers!
Eric

[uusedman]

This is the circuit in action. I am going to apply it to the motor once i get a chance. Changed a few things in the circuit, tomorrow will post the difference.

YouTube - Rotary Attraction circuit 3-1A

[Eric]

nice! one thing you could add to the circuit are some simple manual switches so you can run the motor with the timer circuit and then run the motor without the timer circuit and compare how the motor performs.

Eric

[uusedman]

nice! one thing you could add to the circuit are some simple manual switches so you can run the motor with the timer circuit and then run the motor without the timer circuit and compare how the motor performs.

Eric

Last night, I put this circuit on one coil, and it reacted well, however, I did not take results or compare achievements. Let's see tonight when I hook it up to 2-4 coils how it reacts with and without timer.

I purchased a shaft coupler to add 3 more flywheels, however, I had to go to a machine shop to make the exact measurements because the shaft is exactly 8 mm which is between 5/16 and 3/8.

[uusedman]

already fried my first 555 timer this is an update to the circuit. Any thoughts how it happened, is much welcomed.

[Eric]

my guess is the output of the 555 timer is an npn transistor and your primary transistor is an npn transistor what you need is to wire your 555 timer to a pnp transistor with a anouther resistor bridge accross its base and then wire the pnp transistor to your primary npn transistor.

Eric

[uusedman]

@eric

i understand and i don't. can u make a simple schematic of what you just said, please?

[Eric]

sure!! (lol i was right where you are in understanding not to long ago)

a 555 is an integrated circuit which means it has some (very small) compontents in it. the leg(pin) in the 555 timer that outputs your pulse is a transistor, most likely an NPN. without getting into the complications of whats inside a transistor, just think of it as a switch. the emitter is the connection on the side of the switch that goes to the source of charge. the collector is the side of the switch that goes to the load to be turned on. the base/gate is the lever/knob/push button that physically turns on/off the switch. however it gets a little more complicated than that. there are 2 flavors of transistors NPN(negative/positive/negative) or PNP(positive/negative/positive). the sequence is (emitter/base/collector), this tells us what side of the circuit your tranny turns on, an npn's emitter and collector can only properly switch on/off a pathway that leads from the negative side of the source to the load, its base/gate is activated from the positive side. a PNP is the reverse of this.

so if you want an NPN whose collector is N(negative) to "talk" to anouther NPN whose base is positive you need to make sure the N(collector) of your first NPN transistor is connected(talks) to the N(negative) base of a PNP tranny that tranny whose collector is P can now be switched on to "talk" to the P base of the next NPN tranny. believe me i've blown some trannys up as well because i didnt understand this eather.

if you want to see a circuit just go here Eric's page, Photos click the photo of my first motor circuit. i needed this circuit because the optocoupler i used has an NPN transistor and i need it to "talk" to my primary NPN transistor.

hope that helps!
Eric

[uusedman]

Last night I dedicated most of Research to investigating the different kind of pulse and how they react against inductor.

All I have to say is WOW.

After I am doing with my experimenting I post the numbers. The circuit that I had updated worked fine to check some numbers, however, if it does give me a problem, I will have to follow your route.

What I can say from last night session is the following primary results which are subject to change after conclusion of test.

I had a 10 mf capacitor as the timing of the pulse, which is around 2 pulse per second. The scope showed a long DC pulse which the inductor saturating in the very start of the pulse, which is what we are saying. The GOOD side of this long pulse setup is that the inductor does stabilize by releasing the magnetic flux established and clearing the way for the next pulse. This is important because the magnetic flux is recycled due to pulse duration. The magnetic residue was at minimal.

experiment 1:

Capacitor : 10 mf
Pulse Duration : 2 pulse - 1 second
Inductor saturation : Instant
Magnetic Residue : 5%
Capacitor Bank : incrementing in .30 volts per second
Electrical recycling : 95% (compared to the inductor stabilizing)
Conclusion: Greater recycling percent, the inductor is drained totally to the capacitor bank. However, wasted energy about 99% (if not more!) since the continuous saturation of the inductor as opposed to the pulse duration.

experiment 2:

Capacitor : .47 mf
Pulse Duration : 30 pulse - 1 second
Inductor saturation : Instant
Magnetic Residue : 20-40%
Capacitor Bank : incrementing in 3 volts per second
Electrical recycling : 80-60% (compared to the inductor stabilizing)
Conclusion: average recycling percent, the inductor is leaving magnetic residue which is limiting the amount of drainage to the capacitor bank. The amount of energy wasted here is still high, but more efficient than the previous trail since. The pulse duration has decreased to allow greater amount of energy to be recycled to the capacitor bank and less energy wasted.

Experiment 2 showed a greater amount of energy recycled however it is still limited. We can find a harmonic state to which the pulse is equivlent to the time of inductor releasing ALL magnetic flux. However, the better way is to find a way or use something to increase the rate of drainage from the inductor on off pulse state.


Experiment 3: The pulse that is from the collector the emitter showed a negative pulse which increase as time follows.

This stuff is amazing and I will post on pic or video this results once I conclude.

All figure are subject to change ( I feel like a banker saying this), I will keep you updated if there is a fault.

[uusedman]

I am re reading this forum, my experiments are already stated. Though, I did learn and UNDERSTAND of what idea is begin propagated by doing these experiments

I am looking for a DC motor to act as a generator. Once I get one and install, I will rely some numbers.

[uusedman]

Ok, tkank's Peter
For what I understood from your post, the circuit should now look something like this:

Is that correct?
Thank you

Edit: Can I use the MJ2501 PNP transistor for triggering? It is a high power transistor, but I found some of them laying around. The max base current of this transistor is 0.2A, but that is the absolute maximum rating. Here is the data sheet:
MJ2501 pdf, MJ2501 description, MJ2501 datasheets, MJ2501 view ::: ALLDATASHEET :::
If I can use this, then I need no aditional parts and can start soldering.

Jetijs

I am going to use this circuit for my next model but not the opto light trigger, for now, I will stick with the magnetic reed switch.

[Eric]

yup that looks about the same as what i did with my first circuit.

i my self have been spending many of my free hours locked up in my shop in front of my mill and lathe working on my mechanical switching device for my 3rd motor. when done it will have 3 sets 4 of adjustable cam switches, each cam switch will open/close 2 electrical contacts(1 contact per side of the circuit to provide complete isolation in each circuit) giving me a total of 24 switches.
i will post some photos for you when i've finished it.

cheers!
Eric