Sales Info: EFIE, PWM, Mixture Display etc.

[samregina]

4 wires. They are labeled ground, O2 heater control, O2 return upstream, and O2 signal in the AllDataDIY connector diagram.
I checked the two pre cat O2 signal wires against their harness ground wire this last time, instead of a frame ground. They were running 2.2 to 3.5 V.
Also heard back from my EFIE maker. He told me how to replace a couple of resistors with lower ohms that will give me a higher adder voltage. That may be my next move.
Or should I be modifying the O2 upstream return V?
Heelllp me, Red

[samregina]

A quote from ACR Man on forums.neon.org

This is from a forum on performance modifications for, of all things, Dodge Neons. ACR Man is described as a Master Neon Tech...
"The 1996-2008 stock PCMs use the downstream O2 sensor for the catalyst efficiency monitor and for the downstream fuel control strategy.

The PCM has a programmed goal voltage for the upstream O2 sensor. This could be thought of as the average voltage (over time) that the PCM wants to see from the upstream O2 sensor. Prior to 1995 this was thought to be .5 V, but in reality that was not necessarily the case on Chrysler products even in the early 90's.

The upstream O2 goal voltage can be changed by the PCM based on the behavior of the downstream O2 sensor, within certain parameters. The PCM expects to see the downstream O2 sensor at a particular voltage (which indicates efficient catalyst operation) when the engine is operating within each particular RPM/MAP breakpoint. This is a calibratable value which is programmed for each engine package. If the downstream O2 sensor is reading a lower voltage (higher oxygen) than the PCM wants, then the PCM will react by moving the upstream O2 sensor goal voltage higher. This will provide marginally more fuel which will alleviate the "excess oxygen" problem. If the downstream O2 sensor is reading a higher voltage (less oxygen) than the PCM wants, then the PCM's reaction will be the opposite: to move the upstream O2 sensor goal voltage lower which will provide less fuel.

Note that you can read the upstream O2 sensor goal voltage on a DRB III, StarSCAN or StarMOBILE scan tool, but the "desired downstream O2 sensor voltage" (for lack of an official term) is not displayed on the scan tool."

If this is accurate it explains how the Chrysler PCMs could be so resistant to precat sensor modulation... Any comments on this welcomed!

[Redmeanie]

This is from a forum on performance modifications for, of all things, Dodge Neons. ACR Man is described as a Master Neon Tech...
"The 1996-2008 stock PCMs use the downstream O2 sensor for the catalyst efficiency monitor and for the downstream fuel control strategy.

The PCM has a programmed goal voltage for the upstream O2 sensor. This could be thought of as the average voltage (over time) that the PCM wants to see from the upstream O2 sensor. Prior to 1995 this was thought to be .5 V, but in reality that was not necessarily the case on Chrysler products even in the early 90's.

The upstream O2 goal voltage can be changed by the PCM based on the behavior of the downstream O2 sensor, within certain parameters. The PCM expects to see the downstream O2 sensor at a particular voltage (which indicates efficient catalyst operation) when the engine is operating within each particular RPM/MAP breakpoint. This is a calibratable value which is programmed for each engine package. If the downstream O2 sensor is reading a lower voltage (higher oxygen) than the PCM wants, then the PCM will react by moving the upstream O2 sensor goal voltage higher. This will provide marginally more fuel which will alleviate the "excess oxygen" problem. If the downstream O2 sensor is reading a higher voltage (less oxygen) than the PCM wants, then the PCM's reaction will be the opposite: to move the upstream O2 sensor goal voltage lower which will provide less fuel.

Note that you can read the upstream O2 sensor goal voltage on a DRB III, StarSCAN or StarMOBILE scan tool, but the "desired downstream O2 sensor voltage" (for lack of an official term) is not displayed on the scan tool."

If this is accurate it explains how the Chrysler PCMs could be so resistant to precat sensor modulation... Any comments on this welcomed!

I guess anyone putting Hi Flow Exhaust or a Performance Cat on a Mopar Product is just Screeewwwweeeddd....

Thats a First for me hearing that, but then again my experience is in imports. I mean from a tuners perspective that would be a Nightmare, and an obvious reason why few people purchase the little Turbo Charged Neon for Auto Crossing and the like.

[Redmeanie]

4 wires. They are labeled ground, O2 heater control, O2 return upstream, and O2 signal in the AllDataDIY connector diagram.
I checked the two pre cat O2 signal wires against their harness ground wire this last time, instead of a frame ground. They were running 2.2 to 3.5 V.
Also heard back from my EFIE maker. He told me how to replace a couple of resistors with lower ohms that will give me a higher adder voltage. That may be my next move.
Or should I be modifying the O2 upstream return V?
Heelllp me, Red

I guess pretty much your options are limited if what this Dodge Master Tech Says is true. Not even a Wide Band Controller will make a permanent change because if the post cat O2 has anything to do with A/F Ratio in Mopar Products then it will simply void out the changes.

I hate to say this but, try the resistor route and see what happens. Have you asked that guy what he would suggest?

Do a search on Hemi, Wide Band Controller and see what people are using to modify the A/F Ratio. Maybe someone in that area already has come up with a viable solution. Let me know what you find out.

[TheLoiteringKid]

This may be a shot in the dark but,

Why not just add a 2nd efie to the downstream o2 sensor, then using a volt meter, see what it normally reads, without the hho gen on and then with it on, set the efie on that o2 sensor to the difference.

Youll have to be set up where you can get a reading the instant the hho starts to flow as only the first few readings will be accurate before the ecu starts correcting.

I'll be keeping an eye on how this gos as i may be in the same spot with my jeep, 2 cats,4 o2 sensors, 2 pre cat, 2 post cat. all 4 wire narrow band as far as i can tell.

[Aaron]

great story!

Great to hear this story! I get PM's from members all the time that it happens to them once they come here but they don't want to post that publicly. Anyway, welcome!

One more comment...I spent several hours last night studying this website from one end to another, from technical posts to more metaphysical collective consciousness issues...I have read most of Hicks' books and am familiar with Law of Attraction, but have never seen a site where LOA and technical issues are so comingled...
Anyway, my area of concern for the evening was. of course, getting my Jeep ECU to cooperate with hho...
Today we went to an old hardware store in Huntsville looking for flowerpots. There happens to be a kid working there who is slowly building a Ball jar hho for his car - we met before when I went there for Marine Goop and he told me that was a dead giveaway that I was building an hho generator. So he asks me for the latest, and I tell him I have 1.5 lpm gas output but my Jeep hemi ECU is defeating me. He says a guy with a 2008 5.7 hemi just left, and that he is getting 26 mpg, up from 12 mpg on that vehicle. Then he pulls out the slip of paper the guy gave him with his phone number...he says the guy is eager to talk to anyone about hho, and I should give him a call. So I do, and sure enough he has a new Dodge 5.7 hemi, is getting 26 mpg, and has worked through every issue I have encountered.
Pretty weird, overall. Spend 12 hours looking on internet for any info specific to hho and hemi's, end on this website with a close examination of Aaron's consciousness LOA diagram, then 12 hours later receive a phone number for a guy in the same town who has solved my issue and wants to help me with it.
What are the odds of that?
All I can say is thank you, guys, for building this website!

[west_beach]

Great, I just asked RedMeanie this week to send me a SINGLE EFIE for my 2003 Dodge Neon's single pre-cat o2 sensor. If i get no improvement, I'll be looking to manage the post cat o2 sensor too.

I'm going to control this Neon and try my best not to have it control me.

[samregina]

New Mopar EFIE info

OK, guys...
I just bought some info from a Jeep expert with 20+ yrs experience on just.ask.com. He confirmed redmeanie's 1st statement that the post cat sensors have no role in fuel mapping. In fact here's his quote:

"OK... first thing that you need to be aware of is that the pre-cat oxygen sensors are used for fuel mixture control. The rear (post-cat) oxygen sensors are used by the PCM only for monitoring catalyst efficiency for emissions reasons, and do not affect fuel mixture at all. So, you can ignore the post cat sensors for what you are trying to do.

All oxygen sensors operate in the zero to 0.9 volt range. The median is .45 volt (450 mv). The oxygen sensor actually chemically generates it's own voltage here; nothing is fed into it from the computer.

When the engine is warmed up and in closed looop operation, the ECM monitors the front O2 sensor voltage. the ECM wants to keep the voltage as close to .45 volt as it can; it does this by adjusting the fuel injector pulsewidth to slightly change the amount of fuel entering the engine. If oxygen sensor voltage starts to drop below .45 volt 9indicating a lean condition) the computer opens the injectors a little longer. If O2 sensor voltage starts climbing above .45 volt (indicating a rich condition), the ECM opens the injectors a shorter amount of time to reduce fuel entering the engine. keep in mind that this voltage is switching back and forth extremely quickly; many times per second.

Because the switching rate is so fast, you cannot possibly adjust the voltage manually; you cannot turn on the voltage supply on and off amny times per second manually to accurately control fuel mixture. All you can hope to do is skew the reading overall to one side or the other, which causes the ECM to not be able to control fuel mixture accurately since it is getting a false reading."

He also said this:
"All oxygen sensors used on modern vehicles operate within the exact same voltage range: 0 volts to .9 volt. There is no other operating range for oxygen sensor signal.

As far as whether this falls within "narrow band" or 'wide band" depends on your definition..."

Of course this gave no explanation why my sensor signals were reading in the 2.5 to 3.5 V range with respect to ground(frame ground or sensor harness ground). So I went back to AllData to get wiring diagrams and found that both precat sensors did not go to ground, they went to a third wire called "O2 Return". When I checked it vs ground it had its own sinusoidal wave pattern...who knows where it comes from, but measuring the signal vs that wire gave me a swinging voltage between 400 and 600 mV. Indeed a narrow band O2 sensor signal.
Next I took advice from my EFIE make and decreased the ohms on one little resistor on my board enabling it to add up to 600mv. I am currently testing an addition of about 275 mV to each sensor and my first test run brought in about 22.4 mpg on the highway at speeds where my MDS usually kicks in. This will probably be my sweet spot on this vehicle until I can get my hho output up to 4 lpm.

Sorry about any previous misinformation, with special apologies to redmeanie, who, as far as I can tell, was only wrong one time, and that was the time when thought he might be mistaken

[samregina]

Oh No, more Mopar EFIE info

Here is a quote from another forum on PT Cruisers, from a Google search on "Mopar O2 sensor return"

"I finally broke down and spent the bucks for a set of 2003 PT Cruiser Diagnostic manuals. Here is the description of the O2 Sensor's operation:

************

O2 Sensor (NGC)

The O2 system with the ignition on and engine off has a normalized O2 voltage of around 5 volts as displayed on the DRBIII or measured with a high impedance voltmeter. As the O2 sensor starts generating a signal the voltage will move towards 2.5 volts. The voltage will typically vary between 2.5 volts and 3.5 volts on a normal running engine. The goal voltage is also typically between 2.5 and 3.5 volts. This implies that the 0-volt through 1-volt range that you are used to is shifted up by a 2.5 volt offset. This 2.5 volt supply is being delivered through the sensor return line."

So that is the latest for anybody trying to get a Chrysler PCM to cooperate with an hho generator. I will post again once i figure out whether the polarity of the return is the same or opposite to the O2 sensor signal, meaning that the sensor is subtracting amplitude or adding amplitude to the return voltage.

[Redmeanie]

Here you go in laymens terms how a Wide Band Works. I could probably modify the EFIE I build to work here but it will take some time that unfortunately I have none of. Ive been thinking of just altering the Voltage levels and flipping it like the others say that it should work. This would have to be Guinea Pigged by someone that is not afraid of taking a Chance Though!

Wide Band O2

[wpage]

Fountain of info

Red,

You are a great resource here at the forum!

Got the package today thanks!

Tell the princess nice!

W

[Redmeanie]

Red,

You are a great resource here at the forum!

Got the package today thanks!

Tell the princess nice!

W

Sure Thing!
Thanks

[TuxAir]

Here you go in laymens terms how a Wide Band Works. I could probably modify the EFIE I build to work here but it will take some time that unfortunately I have none of. Ive been thinking of just altering the Voltage levels and flipping it like the others say that it should work. This would have to be Guinea Pigged by someone that is not afraid of taking a Chance Though!

Wide Band O2

Red, I can be a guinea pig.

[samregina]

Self Ordained Pig

I guess I'm guinea-ing myself, altering resistors in my efie to get more adding or subtracting voltage, and switching leads. (Can anyone loan me one of those $8000 mopar NRBIII diagnostic scanners, in case I blow something?) Bummer. I had just bought a Scan Gauge II, but the auto industry has outsmarted me again.

Any coherent results, post I will, Yodas.

[lynnj]

order single 02 enhancer

: I need to know how to go about ordering seveeral 02 enhancers, i have paypal and I am a member---Thanks lynnj2007@yahoo.com:

Ok,

I am starting this thread here also because for some reason I keep getting Bombarded with PM's about access to the members only forum.
"THESE KITS ARE FOR MEMBERS ONLY" So if you want to place an order you MUST put your "Username" in the Notes Field in Paypal. Absolutely NO Guests! Any payment received from non members will be returned via Paypal minus their charges.

These kits are put together with Quality components from Fairchild, National SC, and Texas Instruments, NO Garbage Components like The "Kits" that are out there!

All of These Circuits Have Been Redesigned or Modified To Be Used For HHO Generation and Operation Of HHO Boosters


Full EFIE Kit (Fuel Mixture Control) For One O2 Sensor $22.00 US
Used To Control A/F Mixture For Fuel Injected Vehicles
Includes:
1 Cut PCB (Just needs to be drilled) ADD $3 for additional board
1 Complete Set of Electronics
1 DPDT Mini Toggle
Please Specify Which Rotary Switch You Want
1 SP 6 Position Rotary Switch (For Complete Range)
or
1 SP 3 Position Rotary Switch (For 3 Preset Setting i.e. Power, City, Highway)


Full Dual EFIE Kit (Fuel Mixture Control) For Two O2 Sensors $40 US
Includes:
(2) Cut PCB (Just needs to be drilled) ADD $3 for additional board
(2) Complete Set of Electronics
(1) 4PDT Mini Toggle
Please Specify Which Rotary Switch You Want
(1) Double Pole 6 Position Rotary Switch (For Complete Range)
or
(1) Double Pole 4 Position Rotary Switch (For 4 Preset Setting i.e. Max Power,Power, City, Highway)


Full Pulse Width Modulator Kit $19.00 US
Used To Pulse Voltage/Current To Cell. This Prevents Run Away Current and Controls Temperature of Electrolyte
Includes:
(1) Cut PCB (Just Needs to be Drilled) ADD $3 for additional board
(1) Complete Set of Electronics
(1) 50A Mosfet
(1) Heat Sink (Heavy Duty Aluminum)


Full Hi Power Pulse Width Modulator Kit $24.00 US
Used To Pulse Voltage/Current To Cell. This Prevents Run Away Current and Controls Temperature of Electrolyte
* This Version is Capable of Driving 4 Off Board Mosfets
Includes:
(1) Cut PCB (Just Needs to be Drilled) ADD $3 for additional board
(1) Complete Set of Electronics
(2) 50A Power Mosfet
(2) Heat Sinks (Heavy Duty Aluminum)

Add Additional Mosfets $6.00 US
(1) 50A Power Mosfet
(1) Heat Sink (Heavy Duty Aluminum)

KIT ASSEMBLY This is being offered to help those who have contacted me wanting this service. So here it is.
EFIE (Fuel Mixture Controller)Adjusted and Calibrated $15 ea.
PWM $10 ea.
Hi Pwr $15 ea.

Pre Drill Boards $2.00 per board
This is being offered "By Request" This is the most time consuming step, but for those who do not have access to the Proper Size Bits or Drill I will do these for you. It will add a day or two to your order.

This is the easiest way to offer Kits that way you only get what you need...

TIPS:
* Remember allot of these components are STATIC sensitive, so be careful!

** I know this isn't the most ECO Friendly route but use 60/40 solder if you can get it. It has a higher lead content so it melts faster. This will help the more inexperienced.

*** Check the tracks and pads on the PCB. If they are touching or close scrape between them with a small flat head screw driver. This can occur during tinning.

**** Practice with the spare boards first. Just practice until you get a nice little solder pad at each hole spot. If your boards have the Blue coating over the copper, just wipe it off with acetone, or nail polish remover.

Notes:

**If you can solder 2 wires together soldering a small PC board is NOT out of your capabilities....

*** I will also be throwing in spare boards so that you can practice soldering on the boards and get the hang of it BEFORE you attempt to mount the electronics.


Shipping VIA Priority Mail will be $5 for Domestic. International should contact me first to check....We are in the Houston, TX area (Pearland)

International Orders Via Priority Mail runs $18.50 if however you want me to send it via Plain Air Mail I will but it will take awhile plus there is no way to track it...

Anyone who wants these should send payment whenever they want to get these... I will only be ordering once a week on Wednesdays for the people who paid the week prior. I will not Stock Extra, I have no use for a bunch of components I might be left with.

Process:
Each Wednesday I will make orders for all received that week prior.

Each Saturday I will Make Boards.....

That following TuesDay I will ship out Everyones Order that was received that week before...

*So there should be only 2 to 3 weeks from the time you pay to the time you receive everything give or take a couple of days (Just in case my suppliers are out of stock on something and I must go to a different distributer, Rare But POSSIBLE).....

I just set up a Paypal Account Solely for this....This is also an email address you can reach me at anytime directly....
c2d2@creative-concepts.us <<<Use this for PayPal Payments as well as Contact via email if you are a MEMBER and need to talk to me drop me an email with your contact info and I will Contact You ASAP.....