Conservation of Charge violated?

[Rich sas]

formula

Sep, I think one of your units is off. I ran across a formula for calculating energy in watt seconds. En=(c*e)^2/2 . where En= energy in watt seconds, C= capacitance in Farads and E=volts. Example: 30000 micro farads=.03 farads.

Rich

[Sephiroth]

this is some of my working (as you said 10,000uf would be 0.01 farads)

J = 0.5 x V^2 x C

so...

( 10,000uf, 12v )

J = 0.5 x 12^2 x 0.01
= 0.5 x 144 x 0.01
= 0.72

Where did i go wrong? It looks correct

[patmac]

Sephiroth

Ok let's see if I can help you

En = CE2 / 2 == J = 0.5 x V^2 x C

En = Energy in watt-seconds
C = Capacitance in Farads
E = Volts

Now one example:

Capacitor labeled 10000uf x 25 volts. = Max energy stored is: 3.125 joules.

But this capacitor is charged to 12 volts so:

En = 12^2 x .01 /2 = 0.72 J

You try to tell me that capacitor equal farads stores half energy because voltage is half????

By using formyla that is very incorrect. There is another implications on it. At least by using formula, if this formula is incorrect can be possible demonstrating by practical. Maybe using a Oscilloscope to measure joules x time that this capacitor can give when is fully charged and half charged:

Reading on internet I found this formula
Pav = CV2/2t where t = time in seconds. Pav is in Watts.

That mean that if you try to measure with oscilloscope, to measure decreasing voltage in the time that get down to 0 volts by using a resistor as load. Is possible measure Power in watts x seconds.

You too can conect in paralel this capacitor (10000uf x 25 volts) fully charged on another 1000uf x 25 volts discharged.

Now in Coulumb Q=CxV.

Q=0.01x25 = 0.25
Q=0.01x12= 0.12

Voltage in capacitor keeps equal on both capacitor. But energy stored no... To pass energy from capacitor 1000 uf x 100 volts to anothre 10000 x 12 volts. Need differential potential to electrons pass to anothre capacitor with lower potential.

[Rich sas]

your right

Sep, who ever put that formula out on the net got it wrong. So keep yours its right,, my bad. You may find this link interesting.Free Online Calculators for Engineers - Electrical, Mechanical, Electronics, Chemical,Construction, Optical, Medical, Physics, etc... .

Rich

[Sephiroth]

Sephiroth

I think undestand your point... you're intenting discover one mathematics explication about transfer energy between capacitors....

Wow. This is heavy.... if you discharge a capacitor 100 volts. on another charged on 12 volts. then second capacitor need dielectric at least 125 volts???

I'm not sure if I understand you... I'm not trying to find a loop hole in equations.

What has puzzled me for a while is that I am almost certain that John Bedini recommends (or at least practises himself) discharging a low farad capacitor at high voltage into the charging battery.

However, so far everyone I know who has replicated the energiser has reported better results discharging high farad caps at just a few volts over the charging potential. This is still a puzzle.

However, these thought experiments possibly show why using high farad caps at low voltage gives better charge than low farad high voltage assuming that these equations work the same way with capacitors as they do for batteries.

Let's try another example.

I have no idea what a battery would equate to in farads but lets go for a ridiculously huge capacitor....

start with

1,000 microfarad - 100v ( 5 joules )
1000 farad - 12v (72,000 joules )

which would discharge to

1,000 microfarad - 12.000088v (0.0720010560039 Joules)
1000 farad - 12.000088v (72001.0560039 Joules)

so 4.927998943961 joules left the charged capacitor but only 1.0550039 joules made it's way into the charging capacitor. Which means 21.4% of the energy required to charge the original capacitor to 100v made its way to the charging capacitor.

or in other words 79.6% of the energy was lost.

If we do the same experiment with a high farad capacitor at low voltage...

50,000uf - 14v ( 4.9 joules )
1000 farad - 12v (72,000 joules )

(so we are discharging approximatly the same ammount of joules as the first experiment)

we end up with

50,000uf - 12.000099995v ( 3.60005999725 Joules )
1000 farad - 12.000099995v ( 72001.199945 Joules )

So the charged capcitor discahrge 1.29994000275 joules and the charging capacitor gained 1.199945 joules. Which is a 92.077% efficient transfer of energy.

so only 7.033% of the energy was lost.

(The maths is a bit tougher on these values so I may have made a mistake)

Peter, I would appreciate your thoughts on this.

[Sephiroth]

Sephiroth

Ok let's see if I can help you

En = CE2 / 2 == J = 0.5 x V^2 x C

En = Energy in watt-seconds
C = Capacitance in Farads
E = Volts

Now one example:

Capacitor labeled 10000uf x 25 volts. = Max energy stored is: 3.125 joules.

But this capacitor is charged to 12 volts so:

En = 12^2 x .01 /2 = 0.72 J

You try to tell me that capacitor equal farads stores half energy because voltage is half????

By using formyla that is very incorrect. There is another implications on it. At least by using formula, if this formula is incorrect can be possible demonstrating by practical. Maybe using a Oscilloscope to measure joules x time that this capacitor can give when is fully charged and half charged:

Reading on internet I found this formula
Pav = CV2/2t where t = time in seconds. Pav is in Watts.

That mean that if you try to measure with oscilloscope, to measure decreasing voltage in the time that get down to 0 volts by using a resistor as load. Is possible measure Power in watts x seconds.

You too can conect in paralel this capacitor (10000uf x 25 volts) fully charged on another 1000uf x 25 volts discharged.

Now in Coulumb Q=CxV.

Q=0.01x25 = 0.25
Q=0.01x12= 0.12

Voltage in capacitor keeps equal on both capacitor. But energy stored no... To pass energy from capacitor 1000 uf x 100 volts to anothre 10000 x 12 volts. Need differential potential to electrons pass to anothre capacitor with lower potential.

patmac... your formulas seem correct. Though they don't conflict with the formulas I am using.

You are right.

a 10,000uf cap charged to 12v will have 0.72 joules stored in it
and a 10,000uf cap charged to 25v will have 3.125 joules stored in it

joules in a capacitor doesn't increase linearly. It increases exponentially to the voltage.

[patmac]

patmac... your formulas seem correct. Though they don't conflict with the formulas I am using.

You are right.

a 10,000uf cap charged to 12v will have 0.72 joules stored in it
and a 10,000uf cap charged to 12v will have 3.125 joules stored in it

joules in a capacitor doesn't increase linearly. It increases exponentially to the voltage.

That is correct... and near to be amazing. In my Bedini I was charging first a capacitor 200 vols x 200 uf and charge is very slow. But a capacitor 2200uf x 50 volts charge very fast only take two seconds.

Then;

0.5 x 200^2 x 0.0002 = 4 joules

and

0.5 x 50^2 x 0.0022 = 2.75 joules

Seems obviuos but in practical time to charge second capacitor must be half time aproximately, but no. Second cap (50v x2200uf) take me only a fraction less than first cap (200v x200uf). After that experience many days ago. I was thinking to make my own electrolytic capacitors, for example:

12 volts x 100.000uf

This can be explained by electrolyte in high voltage and low separation plates.

[Rich sas]

formula

Sep, I was not saying that you where trying to find a loop hole in the equation. I have working with some rather large capacitors for the last few years. I have the Maxwell ultra caps, I have 25 of the pc2500, 2700 farad 2.5v units. Have been test charging with radiant energy using a zero recovery diode. They are setup as 6 in series. That gives me 450 farad 15 volt bank. Sorry, don't want to get the thread off topic, Just want to say what I was experimenting with.

Rich

[Peter Lindemann]

Bedini.....

Sephiroth,

I agree with you completely. Bedini built only one SG motor system that I saw run continuously for 60 days. There are many pictures of it on the net. The system used a "Cole Switch" triggered by a hall effect device to turn the two power coils on and off. The output pulses were taken off a separate winding on each coil and wired in SERIES and then put through a FWB to a capacitor rated at 333,000uf @ 36 volts. This was charged just a few volts above the battery and then discharged across a rotating mechanical contacter to charge five 12 volt batteries in parallel. The charge batteries were receiving one large current surge approximately once a second. Every 12 hours, John would take one battery from the charge side and swap it out with the run battery. After running for 2 months, the point was made, and the system was shut off.

This arrangement is what worked! I never did the math on the energy transfer before, but it is obvious now WHY this arrangement outperformed every other set-up. What a revelation!!!

Awesome work, Sephiroth!

Peter

[Aaron]

cap dumps

Sephiroth,

Also with these large cap dumps or any cap dumps....for the purpose of using the voltage potential, the caps don't have to fully empty, they just barely go down to the level of the battery. Therefore, it hardly takes anything to charge them back up to a few volts above battery instead of having to charge them from empty.

[Sephiroth]

Sephiroth,

I agree with you completely. Bedini built only one SG motor system that I saw run continuously for 60 days. There are many pictures of it on the net. The system used a "Cole Switch" triggered by a hall effect device to turn the two power coils on and off. The output pulses were taken off a separate winding on each coil and wired in SERIES and then put through a FWB to a capacitor rated at 333,000uf @ 36 volts. This was charged just a few volts above the battery and then discharged across a rotating mechanical contacter to charge five 12 volt batteries in parallel. The charge batteries were receiving one large current surge approximately once a second. Every 12 hours, John would take one battery from the charge side and swap it out with the run battery. After running for 2 months, the point was made, and the system was shut off.

This arrangement is what worked! I never did the math on the energy transfer before, but it is obvious now WHY this arrangement outperformed every other set-up. What a revelation!!!

Awesome work, Sephiroth!

Peter

YAY!!! I contributed!!!

Thanks Peter! You really helped me understand this arrangement and the details you have given about Bedini's system I haven't come across before and I am certain will come in useful in future builds!

[theremart]

Best charge..

YAY!!! I contributed!!!

Thanks Peter! You really helped me understand this arrangement and the details you have given about Bedini's system I haven't come across before and I am certain will come in useful in future builds!

Yes two three things Peter said that strike home.

1. FWBR
( found in patent, but also Daftman's setup that ran "for months" )


2. Cap just above charge voltage

( battery setup called Tunecharge from old yahoo group used this method)

3. Shutoff of primary from charge.

[theremart]

Adjusting the charge..

Sephiroth,

Also with these large cap dumps or any cap dumps....for the purpose of using the voltage potential, the caps don't have to fully empty, they just barely go down to the level of the battery. Therefore, it hardly takes anything to charge them back up to a few volts above battery instead of having to charge them from empty.

To adjust the voltage over the charging battery done by changing the timing on the 555?

[Sephiroth]

Yes two three things Peter said that strike home.

1. FWBR
( found in patent, but also Daftman's setup that ran "for months" )


2. Cap just above charge voltage

( battery setup called Tunecharge from old yahoo group used this method)

3. Shutoff of primary from charge.

FWBR? Sorry, what is fwbr?

I don't know what that is but one of the most siginficant things that stands out to me is the AWESOME size of the caps involved (which I think can be substituted with smaller caps on desktop sized models but still relativly large... testing is required!) and the interesting way the recovery coils are wired... in SERIES!

You mentioned the Daftman's setup... the most significant thing about daftmans energizer is that he has TWO recovery windings in series on each coil... after some thought, this made sense in that it would actually USE the energy put in to energize the coil... normally, since it is a one to one transformer and that the charging voltage is usually above the input voltage, the joules used in energizing the coil woudl go wasted... with the recovery windings wired like this or like in Daftman's setup would allow for the charge AND discahrge of the coil to be used. It may have other effects but without testing I cant be sure.

also there is the method of discharging the cap... I have alway thought that discharging the cap throught a physical contact would out perform an scr... for that reason I have always used relays...

the pieces of the puzzle are falling into place and I have alot of theories to test! on top of that, I have just recieved my first MJL21194 transistors.... ooooooooo, I am going to have fun this week!

[theremart]

FWBR? Sorry, what is fwbr?

I don't know what that is but one of the most siginficant things that stands out to me is the AWESOME size of the caps involved (which I think can be substituted with smaller caps on desktop sized models but still relativly large... testing is required!) and the interesting way the recovery coils are wired... in SERIES!

You mentioned the Daftman's setup... the most significant thing about daftmans energizer is that he has TWO recovery windings in series on each coil... after some thought, this made sense in that it would actually USE the energy put in to energize the coil... normally, since it is a one to one transformer and that the charging voltage is usually above the input voltage, the joules used in energizing the coil woudl go wasted... with the recovery windings wired like this or like in Daftman's setup would allow for the charge AND discahrge of the coil to be used. It may have other effects but without testing I cant be sure.

also there is the method of discharging the cap... I have alway thought that discharging the cap throught a physical contact would out perform an scr... for that reason I have always used relays...

the pieces of the puzzle are falling into place and I have alot of theories to test! on top of that, I have just recieved my first MJL21194 transistors.... ooooooooo, I am going to have fun this week!

FWBR

Full Wave Bridge rectifier... 4 diodes that convert AC to dc.

I think the pulses are good to first remove the sulfate, but after that, if your are going for efficiency, to convert the spikes back into pure DC is the way to go...

Daftman has a very special way he winds his coils.... the direction etc....

After watching many videos I would agree with you about the relays, and reed switches it seems that there are some supper setups using these..

Please let me know how the transistors compare to your others, I know they out perform the 2n5055 hands down from what I hear.

Mart