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Might this be how the Muller generator works?

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  • Might this be how the Muller generator works?

    Hello all
    I had this idea for some days now and I can't get it out of my head, so I explain it and hope to hear form you what you think about it.
    I have read about Muller generator a while ago, in a few words, he was using an even number of neo magnets on the rotor and an odd number of coils on the stator to minimize the cogging. Also, accorcing to Peter, he used coil cores made out of black sand and epoxy resin. This mimimizes the drag even more. The Muller generator is supposed to work in such a way that it does not create additional drag if it's output is loaded down as it is with regular genarators. So when I think about exctracting power form coils with no adittional drag on the rotor, the first thing that comes in my mind is a Bedini self runner experiment that I made a year ago. This is the circuit I used back then:



    It is simple. The bottom part of the circuit is a regular Bedini circuit that makes the wheel spin. The top coil ir the recovery coil with many windings. It is magnetized and then at a correct moment that coil is connected to the primary battery and discharged, in the same time the primary circuit is disconnected form the battery. This is called backpopping. The interesting thing is that if your recovery coil has at least 20 Ohms of resistance (at least for my setup), and is pulsed on the right time, it will produce HV spikes up to 2000v (according to my cheap'o'meter). The number of turns in the coil is important, because I could not get the HV spikes out the the recovery coil if the resistance was too low. Basically if you connect a bridge rectifier and a cap on the output of the recovery coil and measure the voltage on the cap, the coil should output at least 35-40V at maximum rotor speed. I noticed that if your coil has ebough turns and the discharge timing is right, then as the rotor speed goes up, so does also the voltahe on the recovery coil, till it reaches about 33-35v, then the HV spikes start to appear (of course only if the coil is discharged into the primary battery at the correct moments). From the few tests I made back then I saw that if the coil is pulsed this way, it does not create adittional drag on the rotor, but we can use these spikes to charge up a battery. I made two tests, one was with a coil connected directly to a battery through a bridge rectifier and the other was when a battery was attached to the coil only with brief pulses at correct moments. Both times the battery seemed to charge up un similar speed, but the pulsing did not create any noticeable drag on the rotor as the directly attached battery did.
    I think that this is what's happening, if we put a coil near the magnet wheel and the coil leads are open, then this does not create a big drag on the wheel. Of course there will be a small drag because the iron coil core, as the energy that is needed for the magnet to release the core is a bit bigger than the energy that is produced when the core attracts the magnet. But this is a minor drag. But when we short the coil leads, the coil becomes an electro magnet and slows the wheel down much more. This is becuase there is a closed loop. The same closed loop is there if a battery is attached on the output of the coil - it charges up, but it slows the wheel down. So what if we leave the coil open, let the magnet magnetize the core and as soon as the magnet is gone away far enough, but the core is still magnetized, we connect the coil to the battery and collect the collapsing magentic field in form of a spike. This way the magnet will already be far away form the coil to be influenced by the short closed loop time. This way we could get some energy out of the spinning wheel and not slow the wheel down by doing this.
    I may be compeltely OFF here, this is just an idea.
    What do you guys think?
    It's better to wear off by working than to rust by doing nothing.

  • #2
    Interesting.

    I had though of that circuit too...

    Only....

    what I was thinking was reverseing the polarity of the coil on the power coil with a relay, switching it from north to south to double the push of the wheel.. depending on if a north or a south magnet was there.

    Your idea seems reasonable.... needs tested.
    See my experiments here...
    http://www.youtube.com/marthale7

    You do not have to prove something for it to be true. However, you do have to prove something for others to believe it true.

    Comment


    • #3
      Jetjs,

      Why recovery coil is activated only one time per revolution? I don't see capacitor on that schematic.

      Coil is charging each magnet pass to saturate the core? Is that possible?
      Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma — which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.

      Steve Jobs. Apple CEO

      Comment


      • #4
        That is only a basic self runner circuit, but you are right, the energy should be capturable after each magnet.
        My tests showed that a cap makes additional drag, because it forms a closed loop.
        It's better to wear off by working than to rust by doing nothing.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Jetijs View Post
          Hello all
          I had this idea for some days now and I can't get it out of my head, so I explain it and hope to hear form you what you think about it.
          I have read about Muller generator a while ago, in a few words, he was using an even number of neo magnets on the rotor and an odd number of coils on the stator to minimize the cogging. Also, accorcing to Peter, he used coil cores made out of black sand and epoxy resin. This mimimizes the drag even more. The Muller generator is supposed to work in such a way that it does not create additional drag if it's output is loaded down as it is with regular genarators. So when I think about exctracting power form coils with no adittional drag on the rotor, the first thing that comes in my mind is a Bedini self runner experiment that I made a year ago. This is the circuit I used back then:



          It is simple. The bottom part of the circuit is a regular Bedini circuit that makes the wheel spin. The top coil ir the recovery coil with many windings. It is magnetized and then at a correct moment that coil is connected to the primary battery and discharged, in the same time the primary circuit is disconnected form the battery. This is called backpopping. The interesting thing is that if your recovery coil has at least 20 Ohms of resistance (at least for my setup), and is pulsed on the right time, it will produce HV spikes up to 2000v (according to my cheap'o'meter). The number of turns in the coil is important, because I could not get the HV spikes out the the recovery coil if the resistance was too low. Basically if you connect a bridge rectifier and a cap on the output of the recovery coil and measure the voltage on the cap, the coil should output at least 35-40V at maximum rotor speed. I noticed that if your coil has ebough turns and the discharge timing is right, then as the rotor speed goes up, so does also the voltahe on the recovery coil, till it reaches about 33-35v, then the HV spikes start to appear (of course only if the coil is discharged into the primary battery at the correct moments). From the few tests I made back then I saw that if the coil is pulsed this way, it does not create adittional drag on the rotor, but we can use these spikes to charge up a battery. I made two tests, one was with a coil connected directly to a battery through a bridge rectifier and the other was when a battery was attached to the coil only with brief pulses at correct moments. Both times the battery seemed to charge up un similar speed, but the pulsing did not create any noticeable drag on the rotor as the directly attached battery did.
          I think that this is what's happening, if we put a coil near the magnet wheel and the coil leads are open, then this does not create a big drag on the wheel. Of course there will be a small drag because the iron coil core, as the energy that is needed for the magnet to release the core is a bit bigger than the energy that is produced when the core attracts the magnet. But this is a minor drag. But when we short the coil leads, the coil becomes an electro magnet and slows the wheel down much more. This is becuase there is a closed loop. The same closed loop is there if a battery is attached on the output of the coil - it charges up, but it slows the wheel down. So what if we leave the coil open, let the magnet magnetize the core and as soon as the magnet is gone away far enough, but the core is still magnetized, we connect the coil to the battery and collect the collapsing magentic field in form of a spike. This way the magnet will already be far away form the coil to be influenced by the short closed loop time. This way we could get some energy out of the spinning wheel and not slow the wheel down by doing this.
          I may be compeltely OFF here, this is just an idea.
          What do you guys think?
          Hi Jet . Good to hear from you again.

          I can confirm some of your stuff there mate The other thing Id like to add is that sometimes you can fill a capacitor too if designed correctly. I remember one setup I had that was 3 small bifilar drive coils that were air core. The rotor was a 6 neos north/south config. I would start it up and place a fourth coil, bifilar in series, next to the rotor. This coil had a dyna bolt sheath for a core, meaning it is hollow (interesting experiment by the way). I could fill a 8000uF 80v cap to over 50v in about 2 seconds but as soon as I tried to short that cap with a load of some sort rotor speed dropped. I think the problem lies there, in the timing of input and output.

          Core material is definately worth investigating with neo magnets, it needs to be low drag when passive while still retaining reasonable generating capabilities. And it needs to create a strong magnetic field when active. Didnt Sep use neos on his rotor with magnetic filings as a core?

          I also think you should play around with the half and full B/C circuit as a drive/recovery circuit. Ive recently noticed some very interesting things with that one With only one coil firing at a time it is definately going to make things interesting.
          "Once you've come to the conclusion that what what you know already is all you need to know, then you have a degree in disinterest." - John Dobson

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Ren and Jetijs

            I would email "Douglas L. Konzen" <konehead@msn.com>, or check on the EVGRAY list, Kone has spoken to Muller personally about the cores and he knows allot of the Muller gen

            He has some ideas of the self runner with a FWBR, am just finding it for you dood and will post.

            Ash

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Ren,

              So what did you find with the half and full B/C circuits? I know that the full B/C fully isolates the coil when it's not firing, but I haven't found anything of interest with mine. Of course, though, mine is a POS and probably not built right, but it is an interesting concept in its own right.

              It turns fairly quick but has absolutely no torque. Mine's built with ceramics on the rotor and probably not nearly enough turns in the coil. It uses the full B/C circuit and Halls for switching. I tried charging a battery and a cap off the coil, but got feeble results--again, probably because the magnets and geometry of my build aren't optimal.
              Attached Files

              Comment


              • #8
                I remember seeing yours in the monopole forums Shamus. Incase you havent seen my build have a look for the window motor thread. I tried halls but I ended up settling for trigger coils, much easier IMO.

                I wont hijack Jets thread too much, basically at the right tune when the bridge is hooked back up to the run battery amp draw goes negative for a second or so on my analogue gauge
                "Once you've come to the conclusion that what what you know already is all you need to know, then you have a degree in disinterest." - John Dobson

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ren View Post
                  Core material is definately worth investigating with neo magnets, it needs to be low drag when passive while still retaining reasonable generating capabilities. And it needs to create a strong magnetic field when active. Didnt Sep use neos on his rotor with magnetic filings as a core?
                  Ren, I agree that the core material should be investigated. Some time ago I did some research on black sand and forund that the two main ingredients of the black sand are magnetite and hematite. So I bought these materials and mixed them together with epoxy resin to make some cores. These cores did attract a magnet, but much less than iron cores would, but the generating ability from such coils were not very great. Also I think that core material is not the main thing on which to focus. I think that Mr.Muller switched to these cores only to improve the efficiency of his generator, but it should also work good when using iron cores. I think that the secret is in the switching and timing, not in the core material or the odd/even number of coils/magnets, although those things should dramatically increase the efficiency.

                  Thanks, Ash
                  Any info would be apriceated
                  It's better to wear off by working than to rust by doing nothing.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    A while ago there was a great web page with lots of pictures and videos of the Muller generator, his coils and motors. Also I think that Peter was in some of those videos, at least judging from the voices that I heard The page was www.theverylastpageoftheinternet.com, unfortunatelly it does not work anymore. It is a shame that I did not download all the videos and pictures from that site when I had a chance. Maybe someone has downloaded these images and videos and can share them? Ash? One of such videos can be seen here:

                    YouTube - Bill Muller Coiltest

                    Here he is holding a coil that is attached to a 300W light bulb. When he puts the coil near the spinning magnets, the light bulb starts to light up brightly. If the coil core was ordinary iron, then I don't think that he would be able to hold that coil near the magnets so easy, especially since those are big, strong neo magnets. So apearantly the core material does make a huge difference. On that web page I also saw a pocture of one of his coils cut in half. That coil was wound with very heavy gauge wire and there was only about hundered or less turns. So I guess that he was using a different switching method than that what I proposed, because with my method you needed many turns on the coil so that the resistance is high enough to start generating those HV spikes. On the other hand, I was using weak ceramic magnets and my RPM's were only about 300-400, because I could not go too fast as the relay could not keep up with greater speeds. Mr. Muller is using strong neo magnets and the RPM's of his generator are very high, judging from the sound, I would say about 4000-6000. Maybe at those speeds and magnets that strong, it is still possible to generate those HV spikes at lower coil turn number. Also since the spikes coming out of the coil are the same radiant spikes, it is understandabler why the wire gauge is so big - radiant spike likes big wires, that is why John Bedini uses heavy bus bars that connect his big 12pole machine to the charging batteries.
                    Here are some pictures from the MULLERPOWER.com ... advancing the legacy of Bill Muller's work in Motor/Generators... page:



                    This is the same test as in that video







                    Found another video:
                    YouTube - More than 200 amps!!
                    Last edited by Jetijs; 09-25-2008, 06:16 PM.
                    It's better to wear off by working than to rust by doing nothing.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi Jetijs,

                      Do you know if there have been any successful replications of any of Muller's machines? In some ways they remind me of Bedini's free energy machine from 1984--especially the magneto part.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi Shamus
                        As far as I know, this is the only one:
                        Muller Dynamo Second Attempt
                        It's better to wear off by working than to rust by doing nothing.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Found some more pictures in my archives









                          It's better to wear off by working than to rust by doing nothing.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Jet..that should be jetijs name as he is like a dam JET man i cant keep up

                            Posted this over at EVGRAY for you dood, also i asked kone to answer personally Now here is some thing kone had related to your self runner hope its not OT here, can remove if you want me too
                            Will post his answer soon as i get it.

                            Kone, here is what i posted to him about his Bedini self runner (might not be relative)Koneheadx Bedini Self runner recovery

                            Try a FWBR AC legs across your motor switching, and just one AC leg of FWBR gets switched ON-OFF in echo-pulse to initial motor pulse (DC side of FWBR into load)Try it – it has nothing to do with any stupid laws (scientific slogans really) just makes your motor run faster, more powerful, with less draw.Forget about batteries if you are sick of them – re route backemf/recoil into 2nd set of coils like Ian Coke-Richards “butterfly” circuit see on his site: The Mintaka Fulcrum - Motor Lab

                            “Condition” the backemf/recoil that makes the “volts climb” in batteries...do this by putting it into DC CAPACITOR FIRST...then pulse-out cap into battery at near-twice the voltage of battery being charged (23V in cap if 12V battery) Batteries don’t really like or accept the quick pulsing rate that runs motor coils – they like to “slosh” so go much slower rate with battery-charge pulses. -end

                            Back round on the recovery concepts
                            http://www.panaceauniversity.org/EVG...y%20Porter.pdf


                            Ash

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thank's Ash
                              I will have a look on that link/document. I don't have that self runner setup anymore, I played with it a year ago. I guess that my main question is if building a generator that runs in such a way that one or two coils work as simple Bedini SSG and moves the rotor and all other coils are just pickup coils that are connected to the load (cap/battery) only when the magnet has passed the coil and the spike form the collapsing magnetic field can be captured only then, not affecting the rotatio of the rotor. Or would this then be just a setup like Bedini multi coil setup and nothing else. Anyway I have gone through some dirt with a magnet yesterday trying to find some natural magnetite/hematite and other magnetic particles. Did have no much luck, I would need to spend days till I got enough magnetic material to make one core. So I just collected some iron powder from a big grinding machine. Then I mixed this fine powder with epoxy resin and poured all that in some plastic tubes. Here is what that looks like:



                              These cores are attracted to a mahnet just as strong as my previous magnetite/hematite cores, but certainly much much less than an ordinary iron rod. Here are my old cores:



                              Will do some experiments with them when I have more time
                              Thanks,
                              Jetijs
                              It's better to wear off by working than to rust by doing nothing.

                              Comment

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