Might this be how the Muller generator works?

[mikkyo]

*snip*
On that web page I also saw a pocture of one of his coils cut in half. That coil was wound with very heavy gauge wire and there was only about hundered or less turns. So I guess that he was using a different switching method than that what I proposed, because with my method you needed many turns on the coil so that the resistance is high enough to start generating those HV spikes.
*snip*

Is it just me or from those pictures of the coils split apart does it look like he was using something other than copper wire?
Could maybe explain how he got HV spikes with less windings but not necessarily less resistance?

[Allcanadian]

@Jetijs
I think many times we overcomplicate things, first we should understand what a PM generator is and what it is not. As the PM approaches the stator a changing magnetic field in the stator induces a potential difference(voltage),the potential difference produces a current flow. The current flow produces a magnetic field which will always oppose the field which produced it--the rotor PM field. The opposite occurs when the rotor PM tries to leave the stator, an opposite field is generated pulling the rotor PM back into the stator. So we can see the moment a current is induced in the stator windings an opposition is created to this induced current, equal but opposite reactions. At this point it should be obvious that a current cannot be induced without opposing the PM rotor, so why induce a current? Many people have wondered why so many OU generators have such massive stator windings, the answer is simple---- If the induced potential is stored as capacitance in the stator coil windings very little if any current is generated, current which will oppose the PM rotor. The induced potential is an electric field not a magnetic one thus the energy stored as capacitance has no effect on the PM rotor. Much of the confusion regarding generators concerns the illusion that generators generate current, they do but they cannot generate an electric current without first generating a potential difference to produce an electric current. If we store the potential as capacitance until the PM rotor has left the stator then discharge this potential there can be no opposition in the PM rotor.
One generator I have built utilizes a different method. I call it as a repulsion/repulsion generator. If the rotor PM will induce a current in the stator windings and this current will create an opposition to the rotor PM then we need an equal force as the rotor PM leaves the stator. I simply orientate the rotor PM's so that the induced current in the stator repels the incoming rotor PM as it always does but it also repels the rotor PM as it leaves the stator producing a balanced condition. We should also understand the fine line between what a generator function is and what a motor function is and the fact the stator can be both at the same time under certain conditions. For example what happens when a small external input to the stator creates an equal output added to the PM induced current? What happens when the stators coils are not wound as an electromagnet but as a transformer having primary/secondary windings? In an opposite sense we could also apply these thoughts to an electric motor, I have a PM motor in which the PM's on the rotor cannot induce a current in the stator windings in any way but an electric current applied to the stator coils will attract or repel the rotor PM's. I am sorry for sounding cryptic at times but those who know me in the forums should know Im not going to lay this out on a silver platter, those who want to understand will in there own time as I have.
Best regards

[Jetijs]

Thank you Allcanadian for your post. I found it very helpful
The first part of your post is exactly what I propose in this thread - let the magnet pass an open coil so that no current can flow through the coil thus no drag. Then, as the magnet is far enough form the coilm we just connect the coil to a capacitor and let the magnetic field in the core to collapse and charge up the cap.
I did not quite inderstand the second part of your post about your generator setup

[darkwizard]

To AllCanadian

I understand what you say.

[ren]

@Jetijs
I think many times we overcomplicate things, first we should understand what a PM generator is and what it is not. As the PM approaches the stator a changing magnetic field in the stator induces a potential difference(voltage),the potential difference produces a current flow. The current flow produces a magnetic field which will always oppose the field which produced it--the rotor PM field. The opposite occurs when the rotor PM tries to leave the stator, an opposite field is generated pulling the rotor PM back into the stator. So we can see the moment a current is induced in the stator windings an opposition is created to this induced current, equal but opposite reactions. At this point it should be obvious that a current cannot be induced without opposing the PM rotor, so why induce a current? Many people have wondered why so many OU generators have such massive stator windings, the answer is simple---- If the induced potential is stored as capacitance in the stator coil windings very little if any current is generated, current which will oppose the PM rotor. The induced potential is an electric field not a magnetic one thus the energy stored as capacitance has no effect on the PM rotor. Much of the confusion regarding generators concerns the illusion that generators generate current, they do but they cannot generate an electric current without first generating a potential difference to produce an electric current. If we store the potential as capacitance until the PM rotor has left the stator then discharge this potential there can be no opposition in the PM rotor.
One generator I have built utilizes a different method. I call it as a repulsion/repulsion generator. If the rotor PM will induce a current in the stator windings and this current will create an opposition to the rotor PM then we need an equal force as the rotor PM leaves the stator. I simply orientate the rotor PM's so that the induced current in the stator repels the incoming rotor PM as it always does but it also repels the rotor PM as it leaves the stator producing a balanced condition. We should also understand the fine line between what a generator function is and what a motor function is and the fact the stator can be both at the same time under certain conditions. For example what happens when a small external input to the stator creates an equal output added to the PM induced current? What happens when the stators coils are not wound as an electromagnet but as a transformer having primary/secondary windings? In an opposite sense we could also apply these thoughts to an electric motor, I have a PM motor in which the PM's on the rotor cannot induce a current in the stator windings in any way but an electric current applied to the stator coils will attract or repel the rotor PM's. I am sorry for sounding cryptic at times but those who know me in the forums should know Im not going to lay this out on a silver platter, those who want to understand will in there own time as I have.
Best regards

Thanks AC. I can see how Bedini has applied some of those techniques in his simple monopole. How small input applied to the coil at the correct time off balances the rotors normal reactions and momentum/rotation begins. Its kind of like voiding half of the equation, nullifying it. And how storing energy in an inductor to be used out of phase with the approaching magnets. Correct me if Im wrong.

I was interested in the generator you spoke of in the second half. You said you simply orientate your rotors Permanent Magnet to benefit from the induced voltage as it leaves the coil. Are you saying its all geometry then, and there is no external source? Does the magnet pivot on the rotor or is it fixed? Or is it an unusual shaped coil or core? And talk of transformers as stators only makes me ask, you dont mean 1 to 1 ratios of primary to secondary do you ?

Jet I think I remember reading somewhere that the coils were connected in series. Some of the pics look like this could be the case. This sort of setup has always intrigued me, the idea of only one coil being active at any given time has a ring about it.

[ashtweth]

Whoops i gave the Wrong document, here is the one, check it out.
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/BEM...0KoneheadX.pdf

Also i got an answer back from Kone for you, hope it helps Bro.

"Hi Ash

here is my help on this:

It is best to have two swtihces at once energizining yoru motor
coils on-off - one swtich postioned at the in (hi) of the coil, and
one swtihc postioned at the out (lo) of the coil - this has a couple
advnateges - one is that you can ealsiy adjust the pulsewidth fo the
coil being energized, and make sure that wave form is sawtooth-
shaped and does not flatten out (saturated) and second advantage is
that you then put a FWBR's AC legs across both swtichies (two FWBRs
then being used)...then have both FWBR's DC outputs go into their
own caps, or common cap...this wya you pickup more backemf/recoil
too is 2nd advantage of this way.

Then of course do the "swtiched AC leg" of FWBR - with a rotor of N-
S magent like shown in that drawing of Jetjis, what you want to do
is fire only the N magnets, or only the S magnets, but not both - -
an do this only repulsice or only atractive too... then you time
that AC leg of the FWBR across yoru swtichning (or motor ocil or
both motor coil and swtihcng - try all three ways) to give the motor
a big boost of speed power when you blast a 2nd battery pack or
heavey capacitors with a charge...as the AC leg swtich will be timed
to the opposite polarity and also I beleive this "regauges" the
motor coil's CORE's polarity so tha it will attract 9or pepulse) for
free and is partly responisble for the rotor's power-increase when
loading resistance from the DC out of the FWBR, other reason is that
is timed to hit that opposite-polarity magnet; the backemf?recoil
switch-out,... and this is of oppostie polarity to the initial motor
coil impulse...so it propels the rotor faster in same direciton,
rather than creating resistance to the rotation of rotor...

Muller gen designs will lug the motor when you load the coils - you
still have that - "rotational latch" is cut by the odd vs even but
you still get the "inherent" backemf when loading with resistance
the gen coils... but you can get around it by pulseing out the gen
coils at only the sinewave peaks and/or 0 line. No use leaving the
resistanc on the coil during the descenion of the sinewave - that
cap is not going to fill anymore once it hits the peak! Leaving the
reistance loading the coil during the sine wave descension (down) is
plain dumb and how they "hide" true power output when they test
coils and generators wihtout switching out the coils.
also on the sinewave ascension (up)you can chop that too, so that
you only catch the peaks to fill the caps and have minimum lug
happening.
Dont forget to SHORT the coils at the sinewave peaks too - X20
voltage youget in caps with this trick - X3 voltage in caps with a
resistive load generally....you will need a very very quick pulse
for this. Just put a FWBR across your gen coils, and a swtich to
connect the two coil leads. DC side of FWBR into caps. that simple -
- tyr it you'll like it...
Itwould be fun to have bedini-like "trigger winds" inside your many
Muller gen coils on each side of rotor - so that the
would "automatically" trigger out at peaks and you wouldnt need gobs
of swtiches andhalleffects/reed swtiches...Also bigger is better
with Muller generators - more and more magnets in rotor and you get
more and more effeciency...space your magnets in rotor to be the
same diameter of magnet itself as distance edge to edge distance
between magnets - this way you can run on an AC signal for one thing
also you wouldnt want to get the magnet any nearer than this to one
another, so this is the maximum you can pack magnets in there.

ciaoK"

[Allcanadian]

@Ren

I was interested in the generator you spoke of in the second half. You said you simply orientate your rotors Permanent Magnet to benefit from the induced voltage as it leaves the coil. Are you saying its all geometry then, and there is no external source? Does the magnet pivot on the rotor or is it fixed? Or is it an unusual shaped coil or core? And talk of transformers as stators only makes me ask, you dont mean 1 to 1 ratios of primary to secondary do you ?

I think the motor concept will explain many things about the generator concept. I will start a new thread called No Bemf motor and post a picture--you know they say a picture is worth a thousand words. Your not going to believe how easy this is LOL.

[ren]

Rock on AC, look forward to it!

[theremart]

Kool video if you have not seen it..

Muller Dynamo Second Attempt


Reporting ECOP of 1.708

Sweet!

[darkwizard]

File Manager

This link is also very interesting.-

[darkwizard]

Bad quality graphics but i think that this is the way.

[cody]

my 2 cents on low turn # generator coils and HV

Ive been designing and playing with very similar things recently. As far as creating a HV spike from a gen coil with very few windings, I think its completely possible. Im getting HV spikes from air coils with few turns, the key is those very strong neos. Combine that with a high RPM and you should have no problem reproducing the effect. The magnetite cores should increase that output but not cause the bad cogging effect from steel cores.

[patmac]

yes darkwizard, you've a good brain.....

Equilibrium Law, with that setup, only we've only core drag, but we can take energy from all coils.

Maybe is holy mathematics...

[darkwizard]

Muller had used steel ball cores too, the cogging is reduced using that configuration in the draw.

[Inquorate]

Bedini motor - minimal lenz drag

I just read this thread, and have had some ideas. Any comments would be welcome :-)

YouTube - lenzless bedini motor - no transistors