Do US auto makers deserve $25B taxpayers for new mpg goals?

[future pather]

The workers can compete if good management presents itself

W

From outward appearance it would seem that those making lead decisions have some interesting bedfellows.

I think perhaps they have invested their money and their lives with the belief that there would be an oil crisis and be no way out of it. When ways out were discovered, they did what they could to keep their investments sound.

I'm just making conjectures based on how things appear but this is how I figure things have ended up how they have.

We could be mad at such people or we could do whatever we can to get things on the right track.


Jessica

[IndianaBoys]

Ford Motor Company may be partner with Dutchman Enterprises...

Does not appear this company gave any credit to Paul Pantone and his GEET technology.

The PICC, Pre-Ignition Catalytic Converter is a breakthrough new technology that could get your car up to five times the gas mileage! Its genius is its simplicity. Here’s how it works:

PICC

Recieved this "Buy Now" solicitation/Press Release about possible Ford partnership:


September 28, 2008

Dear ***********,

Hello from Dutchman Enterprises. We appreciate your having taken the time at some time in the past to request a quote for a PICC for one or more vehicles(s). We were concerned about EPA issues with the technology originally, but we have re-designed around those considerations and we are no longer concerned about our special catalytic converter qualifying with the EPA. With gas prices rising as they have, other large interests have been looking for solutions to some of their problems and we have discovered a common interest in helping the American car manufacturers get back to doing what they do best… make the kind of vehicles Americans want. The door has opened for us to better serve the American consumers. We have some extremely important news. Ford and Dutchman have been talking and Ford finally gave permission for Dutchman to tell the public what is going on. This last weekend, a Ford executive spent several hours speaking to the dealers involved in distributing the Dutchman Enterprises automotive technologies at their annual dealers convention. Dutchman Enterprises can now announce that the initial meeting with representatives of Ford Motor Company went very well and both parties are excited about testing the HAFC and PICC and for the potential of improving fuel economy for American automobiles. The initial reaction of the Ford team involved was excitement and enthusiasm over the potential of both the HAFC and the PICC. Discussions have begun about both companies partnering together to further develop these technologies.

Dutchman Enterprises received a letter from the engineer that is heading up the Ford team to test the HAFC. In that letter from Corporate Headquarters in Dearborn Michigan, the leading engineer wrote, “the (HAFC) concept makes good sense.” There have been critics at large who have challenged the idea of water gas and called it a scam technology, but one has to consider the fact that no one knows more about automobiles and what makes sense relating to them than the engineers who design and build them. This same engineer, in the same letter, wrote, “We are also excited about the potential of the PICC technology.” Ford is discussing getting involved because these technologies make sense. Their testing is supposed to be over on or around October 1st, and the executive that addressed the dealers gave everyone the impression it was going well. They have even asked for more units and that is a good sign.

Mr. Alan Mulally, CEO of Ford Motor Company, was interviewed on CNBC on the 12th of September, and he told the reporter that there are some interesting things happening in the alternative fuels area. He said, “Hydrogen technologies, involving water, offer some incredible opportunities to do something with the engines we already have.” That is not a statement about regular Hydrogen Fuel Cells, which do not operate with current engines. It is reasonable to assume he is talking about water gas injection and the Hydro-Assist Fuel Cells, which his people are currently testing.

Of course, Dutchman Enterprises is excited about the prospects of partnering with Ford Motor Company and their thousands of Ford dealers all across the USA and throughout the world. Not to mention the engineering and research prospects for developing the PICC to it’s full potential. It is not hard to see why Ford would want to be able to get 50% (or even 30%) better mileage out of their existing SUVs and Pickup trucks. It could save the US auto industry to be able to develop the PICC within a year or so to be able to get 100 miles per gallon or better (city and highway) with future SUVs and Pickups. Both of these technologies have world wide patent protection owned by Dutchman Enterprises.

What does this mean to you? It is time to seriously consider getting your HAFC kit on order NOW. The Ford executive mentioned that he thought our prices were too low and that they should be double what we are currently charging. I guess he is right, because we were charging the same price we currently charge for the kit when gas prices were half what they are now. When Ford comes in that will most likely change. The demand will also go through the roof! Just to modify the Ford vehicles will involve 60 million cars. A word to the wise, get your HAFC on order. The PICC will most likely not be on the market for another year or so. Ford will want to develop it with new car designs in mind, while Dutchman Enterprises will absolutely insist on an after market version as well, but that will delay it for well over a year down the road. In the meantime, can there be any doubt now that the concept of the HAFC is sound and can improve fuel economy? You have the benefit of being able to get a little ahead of the curve while the price is half what it will be and while there is not a waiting list as long as the gas lines in the 70s.

As, we are sure, you have already discovered, we have assigned a customer service representative, who works for one of our dealers, to you. If you have any questions about this message, please contact Manager, your customer service representative, using this email address, support@preignitioncc.com. Let our representative do his or her best to answer all your questions and get your HAFC kit in process. One report we recently read made the point that by merely increasing the mileage of vehicles in America by a mere 30% we could eliminate our need for ANY of the middle Eastern oil! Can you imagine what we can do for America and American car manufacturers just by installing the HAFC kits now? When Ford joins us, we will be able to put a LOT of people back to work and stop this fossil fuels insanity. With their help, our PICC will be all that it can be, and all American car manufacturers can get us all the cars and pickup trucks we want with no concern for fuel costs or pollution. This is the answer we are all looking for. Thank you for your support in this effort.

If you have any questions about this announcment, please contact your customer service representative who is Manager using the his email address, support@preignitioncc.com.

Dedicated to a safe, environmentally sound, and prosperous America,

Dennis Lee

(CEO-Dutchman Enterprises, LLC)

P.S. Please do not respond to this email address because we do not monitor it for incoming email. If you need to contact someone, please contact your customer service rep and/or dealer.

[swompwalker]

There is absolutely no reason to chuck money at the Auto makers.All that's needed is legislation raising the bar on mpg year by year.( Bit like a horse jumping event) Let the market drive the automakers to survive or not as the case may be . One thing is absolutely sure that some auto makers would be jumpin that bar and supplying the market entirely without any help from the tax payer.
Detroit lobbyists chucking money to their tame US legislators - makes yu sick don't it now
Other than that I'm with Rickoff/Ashtweth

[future pather]

All that's needed is legislation raising the bar on mpg year by year.

I agree that legislation is a great way to go on this. I just don't trust the current administration to do it.

There is absolutely no reason to chuck money at the Auto makers.

While I think you mean more along the lines of it is not justifiable to have to do that, imo there is definitely a reason. It's called GET R DONE

I also wanted to point out the following in general : It doesn't seem like most people are aware that certain regulations do exist regarding vehicle emissions (which in many cases is tied to mpg).

CEPA Environmental Registry - Fleet Average NOx Emission Performance of Light-Duty Vehicles, Light-Duty Trucks and Medium-Duty Passenger Vehicles

I just wanted people to be aware that there are certain things going in the right direction.


Jessica

[future pather]

Lol I posted a link that applies to Canada.

I know though from speaking with certain company fleet managers in the US that they have regulations as well. I'll see if I can find better info on that. . .

[future pather]

Here's an example for the US :


"The regulations establish a "fleet average emission rate target" for PM and NOx for all off-road diesel vehicles operating in the state, regardless of whether they are California-based or not. The emission rate targets decline over time - become more stringent - until the final fleet average emission rate target is reached in 2020 for large and medium fleets and in 2025 for small fleets. For example, the PM emission target for a 100 to 174 horsepower diesel vehicle will be 0.33 g/bhp-hour (grams per British horsepower hour of use) in 2010, declining over time to a floor of 0.06 g/bhp-hour in 2020.

The regulations take an "either/or" approach to compliance: Each year, the regulation requires each fleet to either meet the fleet average emission rate targets for PM or apply the highest level verified diesel emission control system (VDECS) to 20 percent of its horsepower. Large and medium fleets also must meet the fleet average emission rate targets for NOx or turn over a certain percentage of their horsepower by re-powering with a cleaner engine, retiring a vehicle, replacing a vehicle with a new or used one, or designating a dirty vehicle as a low-use vehicle.

After the first fleet average compliance dates (2010 for large fleets, 2013 for medium fleets and 2015 for small fleets), fleets may not add vehicles that exceed the fleet targets for engines in the same horsepower group - i.e., they cannot add vehicles that make the fleet "dirtier." The regulation also limits unnecessary idling to 5 minutes and restricts any fleet from adding Tier 0 vehicles after March 1, 2009. The largest fleets must report the composition of their fleets by May 1, 2009, and medium and small fleets have one and three additional months to report, respectively. . . ."


California's New Limits on Emissions from Diesel Construction Equipment - Details on How the Rules Work

[swompwalker]

The foreign car makers did not receive subsidies in order to meet singular Californian vehicle regulations. They met the costs themselves – made a profit and everyone gained!

[dubsta]

The foreign car makers did not receive subsidies in order to meet singular Californian vehicle regulations. They met the costs themselves – made a profit and everyone gained!

All they had to do was put their efforts into making something RELIABLE, ECONOMIC and worth its salt, next thing you know they are the biggest and the best.

pretty ironic isn't it?

[tjnlsn255]

Since it is our tax money they will be using to retool then it will be interesting to see what kind of tax rebate we will get when we buy one of these "retooled" cars.....my guess is zippo ........ in my humble opinion they do NOT deserver any tax help at all but just because they do not deserve it does not seam to make any difference..... it is some of the people in Washington that we elected that have come up with this stupid idea and I am glad the ones I voted for voted NO.... at least we had a say sort of....

[ANTIQUER]

Picc?

Hey IndianaBoys;

I got this same e-mail as I had checked on this unit last year.No one should buy into this without checking out Dennis Lee. He has a fairly shady reputation.

When I contacted this company over a year ago, the HAFC unit for my car was $2500.00 + installation(est. $800.00) by one of their certified installers plus some other costly requirements I don't recall at the moment.

The PICC unit was an estimated $5000.00 plus installation, etc. when they got it on the market. That pretty much precluded most people from installing them.

The reason Ford might be interested is they will have a unit you could only replace by buying it or servicing it through them (Like the early catalytic converters). They would also have legislation passed so you could not alter or replace it as they do now with most so-called anti-pollution systems.

It's just more hogwash to make it appear they are trying to solve the problem. As Rickoff & Ash said, we have plenty of technology available already, they just don't want to use it.

By the way, Rickoff didn't mention the 1973 "oil embargo" was created by the big oil companies. They actually had so much gasoline they were running out of places to store it. I saw a tanker pull into an abandoned gas station at 2:00 a.m. and pump his load into the underground tanks during the so-called shortage. I also had several of my friends who reported seeing such events.
Just another example of corporate greed & manipulation.?

Al

[citfta]

There is no oil shortage now either. When all the hoopla started about the oil shortage some of the people in southern Kentucky decided to restart their old oil wells and pick up a little extra cash. When they got their tanks full they called the oil company to come get the oil. The man at the oil company said they couldn't come get it because they didn't have any place to put it. This happened early this summer right in the middle of the so called oil crisis.
citfta

[ashtweth]

> > Email sent to Panacea
> >
> > Ash
> > ------------------------
> >
> > "Do you know anything about the Hydrogen Fuel Cell Technology (HACF)
> > or the Pre-ignition catalytic converter (PICC)? We ordered a HAFC
> > from Pro Motors Group Corp. When ever we called them to check up on
> > the order then would tell us that they lost our order in their
> > computer. So we cancelled our order and asked for a refund. We were
> > told we would get a refund within 48 hours and it has been a week with
> > no refund. Do you know anything about these people? "

Be careful purchasing from Pro Motors Group Corp

[rickoff]

Big Oil

By the way, Rickoff didn't mention the 1973 "oil embargo" was created by the big oil companies. They actually had so much gasoline they were running out of places to store it. I saw a tanker pull into an abandoned gas station at 2:00 a.m. and pump his load into the underground tanks during the so-called shortage. I also had several of my friends who reported seeing such events.
Just another example of corporate greed & manipulation.?
Al

You're quite right, Al, and so is Cifta. The only reason I didn't mention it is because I figured that nearly everyone here already knows that, but thanks for pointing it out. As to the price of gas, and the price of everything else that rises because of fuel costs, it has nothing to do with depletion or scarcity of oil. Enough oil, and natural gas, has been found in the North Slope area of Alaska to fully meet the energy needs of the United States for the next 200 years. Now I am not suggesting that we should abandon our quest to develop alternative energies. This is something that should have been brought to fruition by world leaders and scientists long ago. But if you want to understand why they didn't do that, why we are still buying oil from Saudi Arabia, and what is really behind our current "energy crisis," then look to Lindsey Williams, as he has the answers. Watch this eye-opening 9 1/2 minute video of Lindsey, which is part 1 of 8, and you will probably want to see more:
YouTube - Lindsey Williams - The Energy Non-Crisis - Part 1 of 8

You can also read Lindsey's book, The Energy Non Crisis, at:
The Energy Non-Crisis by Lindsey Williams

Jessica - I fully agree that it is good to have emissions laws that protect the environment, but US automakers could have gone "Green," with zero emissions decades ago by producing Hydrogen, electric, or nitrogen powered vehicles. The emissions laws should never have been needed. Automakers appeared to grumble at the laws, and then comply with them, but in actuality it is what they really wanted all along because it drove the price of vehicles (and emissions replacement parts) way higher, bringing them a huge windfall of profits. And sure, that's been good for their business and has made their stockholders happy in the past, but look where they are now. The autoworkers should think about offering to take over the plants they work at and begin producing some really smart vehicles. Form their own auto company and fire the corporate execs. For that matter, they could fire their union fat cat bosses too, as they wouldn't be needed any more. They could write their own charter and by-laws, and elect the most appropriate team leaders from their own ranks. Now that's real empowerment.


Rick

[ashtweth]

More on the whole OIL picture and Lindsey is here too
Oil Subjugation

I think money spent on subsidies/Endorsement to improve MPG Via GEET/Hydroxy. Then legislation like the old Cal mandates, to move towards compressed/EV's

Check out Solar taxi
Solartaxi

[rickoff]

EV's

Thanks, Ash. And for anyone who hasn't seen this video, which tells the story of GM's EV1 (production model Electric Vehicle) please do yourself a favor and see it now. This link is the only one I am aware of that shows the documentary film in its entirety. You will probably recognize the voice of the narrator, actor Martin Sheen. If there is anyone on this forum who can watch this and still think that we should cough up big bucks to help the US automakers tool up to produce more gasoline powered vehicles with "improved mpg efficiency," then please step up to the plate and take a swing at trying to explain why.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5871495968130273402

Best to all, Rick