Do US auto makers deserve $25B taxpayers for new mpg goals?

[fullbore]

When the collusion between the oil companies, the car companies, and the corrupt government piss the people off enough then may be something will be done about it. The way I see it, 30 miles per gallon to a fifty mile per gallon increase is a decrease in profit for the oil companies. Profit before people is status quo and the foundation of modern society.until we as people get together to change things it makes no difference where the money is wasted because it wont benifit the average person in any way,more profits for corperations less money in our pockets.same **** different pile personally ive started my hho cell,playing with magnets,collecting batteries for wind solar retrofit , a kite for my boat
geet sure sounds worth looking into (thanks aaron) anyways i would rather see 25 billion spent on healthcare or700 .billion for that matter. just my opinion peace out kent

[future pather]

but US automakers could have gone "Green," with zero emissions decades ago by producing Hydrogen, electric, or nitrogen powered vehicles. The emissions laws should never have been needed. . . . The autoworkers should think about offering to take over the plants they work at and begin producing some really smart vehicles. Form their own auto company and fire the corporate execs. For that matter, they could fire their union fat cat bosses too, as they wouldn't be needed any more. They could write their own charter and by-laws, and elect the most appropriate team leaders from their own ranks. Now that's real empowerment.


Rick

It's not real empowerment if it never happens. To be clear I agree on your "coulds and shoulds" but they all depend on someone else doing something which I don't think will get us far, if anywhere.

While I'm not crazy about my tax dollars going to companies who have made decisions I don't agree with. . .

I would be entirely proud for my tax dollars going to helping our environment

Mainly I don't see being angry and ruminating over what others could have / should have done as a solution. It may be justified, but where does it really get us?

Imo keep your eyes on the prize!!

Jessica

[dubsta]

Imo keep your eyes on the prize!!

Car makers did exactly that, and then they ATE it.

Now they want more...

[future pather]

Lol that's like saying never try anything bc some people who try fail.

[dubsta]

I am sorry to say this but you strike me as someone who has NOT paid attention or researched what has been going on in the Auto Industry for the last 40 years.

Its extremely Blatant and it stinks to high hell, its no wonder they are in as Deep a hole as they are. Throwing tax payer dollars at companies as big as these will not FIX anything.

Consider this:

Alternatives existed and were being used way before THEY decided for US to be running ALL our cars on Filthy Fuels (which was basically a scheeming powerplay squeeze) which in turn gave them FULL CONTROL over our lives.

[rickoff]

Hmmm, does this mean you didn't watch the video?

It's not real empowerment if it never happens. To be clear I agree on your "coulds and shoulds" but they all depend on someone else doing something which I don't think will get us far, if anywhere.

Real empowerment is theirs for the choosing if they want it. It's ours for the choosing too, and that's why I'm not going to depend on government or corporations to get anything done. All my life I have been a strong willed and independent thinker, and so I'm looking to myself, and others who are like minded, to find and implement the solutions that really will make a difference.

While I'm not crazy about my tax dollars going to companies who have made decisions I don't agree with. . .I would be entirely proud for my tax dollars going to helping our environment

I fully agree with that, provided it has nothing to do with propping up a corporation that doesn't deserve to exist, and which has been a major contributor to polluting our environment in the first place, when it could easily have been avoided. The fastest way to clean up the environment and halt global warming is to immediately halt production of any further gasoline or diesel powered vehicles, and to retrofit all currently existing carbon fueled vehicles (used and new) to run on at least 50% Hydroxy gas within 1 year. The first half of that equation requires zero tax dollars, and the second half could be accomplished for less than the cost of the proposed taxpayer bailout of the automakers (which will only guarantee further environmental degradation for years to come).

Mainly I don't see being angry and ruminating over what others could have / should have done as a solution. It may be justified, but where does it really get us?

It gets you nowhere, of course, if that's all you do. But the first step to the solution is in waking up and realizing that we've been played as fools by government and corporations. The second step is to let your feelings of outrage and disgust rise to the point where you feel determined to do something to right these wrongs. The third step is to take positive action toward those goals. This can be in the form of exposing the perpetrators, enlightening others as to the truth of these matters, and doing everything you can to individually and jointly bring about positive and real change - not the kind of change that politicians always speak of, but never deliver.

Jess, I believe that you want positive change just as much as I do, and that you care for our environment just as much as I do. So we are really partners in the same rowboat. We can pull our oars together, and really get somewhere, or we can row in different directions and go endlessly around in circles. So now that we have expressed our thoughts, I'd rather that we talk about things that we do agree upon in future discussions. Other than that, I'm just going to step back and listen to what others have to say, and get back to work on my projects. Take care, and best wishes to you,

Rick

[future pather]

Rick,

I would again like to point out that if there were no use for these car companies they would not exist. Obviously people have use for them, which is why anyone like you is angry at them. Otherwise they would have no power. They have contributed to society even if they have done wrong as well.

I totally support the ways you wish to contribute to the solution and I agree that we both want the same goals.

Since I am not very much into machinery, I can not contribute to the solution in the ways you prefer to.

Personally I care more about the environment than I do about judging these companies. Imo that judging and personal spite is getting in the way of the environment which is my highest concern here.

But we all have our roles to play and we don't always have to see things exactly the same


Dubsta,

I am not claiming these companies "deserve" this $ but I do think humanity "deserves" the changes that it would bring. I hope you understand the distinction. Is bitterness towards them worth sacrificing our environment?


Jessica

[dubsta]

Your environment has been compromised long ago and thes are the people who aided and abeded this, you really think GM Ford and the likes will be the ones to save us all from this stuff?

What, pump them full of billions of dollars which they surely have made 100 fold already and they will be the ones to "save us from ourseleves"?

lol

Think!!!!

They are the ones that brought us to this point.

I remember a story about how toyota was selling EV rav4's with a some special lithium battery which (texaco owns all the patents for) for some time until they were pressured to stop as they were infringing on texaco's technologies.

You know who helped Texaco secure and buy out those technologies?
Research....Information is power and you will be very surprised as to why we are all slaves to this system and its corporations including the government.

In my opinion, let a modern day Stanley Meyers or any one of the good folks working daily on trying to achieve ZPE or hydrogen on demand motors ect get the Credit for saving us.

Not GM or FORD which actually put us in this hole with complete disregard for everyone but their bottomline. They have been wreckless with the planet and its people. The amount of surpressed technologies that they helped surpress, is enough to make me want them to fail.

[IndianaBoys]

Ross Perot Charts

Ross Perot has put some charts together to help better understand our fate:

Suicidal Spending

[ANTIQUER]

Kudo's to the man from Maine!

Hi Rickoff;

Again you have hit the nail on the head(twice). Couldn't have said it better.

Al

[ANTIQUER]

Rick,

I would again like to point out that if there were no use for these car companies they would not exist. Obviously people have use for them, which is why anyone like you is angry at them. Otherwise they would have no power. They have contributed to society even if they have done wrong as well.

I totally support the ways you wish to contribute to the solution and I agree that we both want the same goals.

Since I am not very much into machinery, I can not contribute to the solution in the ways you prefer to.

Personally I care more about the environment than I do about judging these companies. Imo that judging and personal spite is getting in the way of the environment which is my highest concern here.

But we all have our roles to play and we don't always have to see things exactly the same


Dubsta,

I am not claiming these companies "deserve" this $ but I do think humanity "deserves" the changes that it would bring. I hope you understand the distinction. Is bitterness towards them worth sacrificing our environment?


Jessica

Hi Jessica;

The reason these car companies exist is that the people who own them have a lot of use for them, mostly using them to increase the size of their bank accounts at the expense of every one else and the environment. They don't give a rip about anything but their bottom line. Anything positive they contributed to society was more or less accidental or an unintended result.

As to giving them more free money, they will only use it as Rickoff has said, to promote their own interests. It will not bring about the change humanity deserves, it never has.

On a more positive note I would suggest a way you could have a positive affect would be to spread the info. on this Forum to the fleet owners you mentioned talking to , or anyone else for that matter. I constantly find people who are totally unaware of anything but what the mainstream media reports, which never mentions anything but what the corporate world can control and which are bogus solutions, at least as far as how to power vehicles. That doesn't require an understanding of machinery, just pointing people in the right direction.

Another way would be to write, E-mail or phone your representatives in congress and give them the same info. If enough of us do that it may have an impact. Most of them are so busy it takes a lot of us contacting them on the same theme to get their attention.

I truly believe you are after the same goal of cleaning up the planet. I just hope you take a more aggressive role in doing it and not leave it to government or the corporate world which never will.

Al

[ashtweth]

We can force them with local voted mandates , like the EV's calif one, only this time they wont be able to quash it (global warming)
Thanks for the thread and ideas guys you all inspired the writing of this,
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...ead.php?t=2825

[rickoff]

Update on the 25 Billion Bailout:

Hi folks,

Please keep in mind, while reading this, that the 25 Billion bailout currently in the works is in addition to the 25 Billion already approved for retooling the auto industry. The current 25 Billion plea is for a bailout to simply pay the over-inflated and excessive operating costs of the auto companies for a relatively short period of time, and when that time experies you can bet that the "Big 3" CEO's will be back in Washington again to ask for more. Many of you have probably been following the circus of the past few days as US automakers made their appeals to Washington for a 25 billion dollar taxpayer funded bailout. The arrogance displayed by Ford, GM, and Chrysler CEO's was truly deplorable, to say the least. They showed no shame or regret when called out for having flown to Washington in lavish corporate jets. "It's almost like seeing a guy show up at the soup kitchen in a high hat and tuxedo," said Rep. Gary Ackerman, a Democrat from New York. "I don't know how I go back to my constituents and say the auto industry has changed if they own private jets which are not only expensive to own, expensive to operate and expensive to fly here, rather than to have flown commercial," said Rep. Brad Sherman, a California Democrat. Sherman asked the CEOs to raise ther hands if they were willing to sell their jets on Wednesday and fly back to Detroit on a commercial flight. "Let the record show no hands went up," Sherman said.


Lawmakers also grilled the CEOs on their executive pay: "After all, Lee Iacocca symbolically accepted just $1 in annual pay. Why can't today's CEOs of General Motors, Ford and Chrysler do the same?" asked Rep. Paul Kanjorski, a Pennsylvania Democrat. The CEOs said on Wednesday they have already taken significant cuts in pay and bonuses.

"I think I'm OK where I am," Ford CEO Mulally said when asked if he was willing to cut his own salary. Mulally earned more than $22 million in 2007, according to a Ford regulatory filing earlier this year. GM CEO Wagoner said he has voluntarily reduced his salary by 50 percent and had used his own money to buy a large amount of GM stock, which he said is now worth very little. He did not say he was willing to make more significant pay cuts. Wagoner earned about $15.7 million in compensation in 2007, according to a GM regulatory filing in April. It is unknown what Chrysler CEO Nardelli actually receives in total compensation, since Chrysler is not a publicly traded company and thus disclosure is not required, but he has been cited for receiving excessively high pay when he was CEO at Home Depot, and left that position with a severance package reportedly valued at over 100 million dollars. What is so special about these men that has allowed them to reap such huge rewards while leading their industry towards doom? It is my feeling that no corporate CEO should be paid more than the highest ranking chief executive officer in the nation - the President of the United States - who receives an annual salary of $400,000. Did you know that our first President refused to accept the $25,000 salary that Congress approved for him? Did you know that John Kennedy actually donated his entire salary to charities? Sure, they were wealthy men who could afford to do that, but so are the CEO's of the big 3 auto companies. All executive positions in these auto companies should voluntarily accept massive pay cuts if they want ther companies to continue. This also goes for the auto workers, who currently receive about $70,000 per year in pay and other benefits. Did you know that current contacts require the auto companies to pay auto workers 95% of their regular pay during reduced production times, when workers are idled and doing no work at all? It is the ridiculous compensation packages and requirements, for executives and workers alike, that now brings the CEO's to Washington to beg for a handout in order to continue more of the same, but now at taxpayer expense. I urge every US citizen reading this post to contact your representatives in Washington, and demand that this bailout idea be laid to rest. The issue has temporarily been set aside, but chances are very good that lawmakers will cave in on the issues and proceed with a bailout, just as they did with the massive Wall Street bailouts for the bankers, unless we make our voices of protest clearly heard. It's time to draw a line in the sand, and to say NO MORE! Here's just one of many places you can go to easily do just that:
Fighting for Lower Taxes, Less Government, and More Freedom -- FreedomWorks.org

Best regards,

Rick

[future pather]

Rick,

I believe you have left out what I consider a vital element of the update, which is that there would be conditions on the money and/or that the money would be only a loan.

I still think it is possible for this to be a good idea, but it would have to be done in the right way.


Dubsta,

I actually do think all the time and find it insulting that you are telling me to do so. I am not so much counting on the car companies, I am counting on US.



ANTIQUER,

I am doing what I can with the fleet managers to help the situation. Yet I am also not giving up on government. Who is it that now mandates the yearly smog tests that we have had for a long, long time?



Ash,

I agree and I think that is one of the most effective ways for change. Here is one way we may be able to help in that regard:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takea...?z00m=18042923


Jessica

[jibbguy]

Don't blame the workers for their idiot bosses

Just because some incredibly arrogant car execs show up i private planes, is no reason to throw our country into a deep depression.....

The auto industry is the last bastion of heavy manufacturing here. All the other mfg jobs have been shipped overseas. If we lose the rest of them, what are non-college educated people supposed to do... Work at Walmart?

Since the government doesn't like paying for college anymore either... That becomes a bit of a pickle for the Middle Class.

Those who still blame the Unions for the problems we are facing are utterly wrong.. In the last 50 years or so, per capita Unions have shrunk over 40%. They have done nothing but give up concessions. In those same 40 years, executive pay has gone from an average of about 6 to 10 times the average workers pay... To nearly 100 times. In that same time, the middle class' buying power has gone down. In that same time, workers job benefits have lowered significantly.

NO OTHER COUNTRY ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH would allow competing countries to have such absurd, impossible to match advantages over their own workers and companies.... For instance, many companies overseas pay dozens of times less for their employee's health benefits than ours do. Every U.S. built car sold here has an average of about $1,500 in employee health care costs added into the price. A Japanese or Korean car has about $50worth.... If this isn't a good reason for embracing universal not-for-profit health care (...as these countries have), I don't what is

"Toyoda America", an artificial holding corp, is designed to never show any profits.. And therefor pays little or no U.S. Federal Corporate Income Tax. They have been pulling this scam for over 20 years, and somehow always get away with it.

There is no question that the U.S. auto corps are "bad people". They have insured that we burn the most gasoline that is humanly possible. We know about the alternatives they refuse to consider, and even supress.... We know that the average mileage of cars in the last 100 years has actually GONE DOWN (the Model T got 28 MPG, in 2008 the new consumer vehicle average was "26 MPG"). Yet there are ways to save these very important jobs, and change the auto industry at the same time.

Linking the money we give to stringent requirements will do this. Requirements like vastly sped-up increased mileage standards, and forcing them to only buy from U.S. suppliers (which will help the entire economy greatly). But just letting the Big Three collapse, letting the last strong Unions go under... Is just what the enemies of the middle class want. Without the influence of Unions and the concept of worker's rights, you can kiss goodbye Saturdays off. You can forget overtime, paid vacations, paid sick days, pensions, even 401k retirement plans, paid health insurance... For everyone.... Because these things only happened during the late 19th and early 20th centuries in the first place BECAUSE of the rise of Unions. When the manufacturing base of the U.S. is utterly destroyed, people will have no choice but to work for peanuts, without benefits. THIS IS WHAT THEY WANT!!

So as obnoxious, corrupt, and stupid as these Big 3 execs are... Remember there are millions of middle class people like you and me who rely on these companies continued existence. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water, and don't forget this:

Without strong manufacturing, the middle class here is doomed to continue to shrink and grow poorer. And without the middle class... This country is doomed.


A trillion dollars for corrupt bankers and fraud-artist Wall St. financiers?? Yet nothing that would actually help the economy or the Middle Class... Lol that's America for you