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Do US auto makers deserve $25B taxpayers for new mpg goals?

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  • #61
    I correct myself:

    Hi folks,

    I incorrectly stated, in post 58 that GM had sold the NiMH battery technology to Amoco. Actually, it was Texaco. GM had a 60% controlling interest in the technology, and announced their sellout of world wide patent rights to Texaco on October 10, 2000. Six days later, Chevron bought out Texaco in a 100 billion dollar merger. Cobasys is Chevron's subsidiary, which effectively killed further development of the NiMH batteries for all-electric cars. Panasonic had developed a "E-95" NiMH battery that was powerful enough to energize an all-electric car at speeds to 80 mph, and with a range of 120 miles. The expected battery life was longer than the life expectancy of the vehicle, and in fact more than 1,000 of Toyota's RAV4 EV units have already surpassed the 100,000 mile mark. Cobasys successfully sued Panasonic for the sum of 30 million dollars, thus killing any further sales of EV-95 batteries. The batteries cannot be sold, or imported, into the US. Cobasys refuses to grant any other company the license to manufacture the EV-95 batteries, and will not even think of producing the EV-95 themselves, unless guaranteed a massive order by an OEM. The only currently available alternative to a EV-95 NiMH battery is a lithium-ion battery pack, but these typically cost around $14,000, which is about 6 times as expensive as an EV-95, and haven't been around long enough to establish a proven track record.

    To me, the EV technology is a story of two crimes against humanity. The first occurred when GM failed to develop the RV and sold the worldwide patent rights to an oil company, which GM obviously realized would have no interest in the technology other than to suppress it. The second crime against humanity is how Chevron very effectively stifled any efforts to utilize or advance the NiMH technology.

    What we really need is a reform of patent laws to allow for criminal prosecution and penalties against any patent holder who participates in any activity that results in suppression of a technology which would otherwise hold great promise for the benefit of mankind. The reform laws should include all past, present, and future patents. This is the only way to free up the thousands of existing patent rights that are currently being suppressed. Current patent laws only serve to protect the criminal actions and behavior of corporations and special interest groups who wish to advance their own agenda at the expense of all other peoples and groups.

    If you haven't already done so, please contact your legislative representatives and demand that they initiate patent law reform that fully addresses the changes that need to occur.

    Best regards,

    Rick
    Last edited by rickoff; 11-26-2008, 03:28 AM. Reason: sp
    "Seek wisdom by keeping an open mind to alternative realities, questioning authority, and searching for truth. Only then, when you see or hear something that has 'the ring of truth' to it, will it be as if a veil has been lifted, and suddenly you will begin to hear and see far more clearly than ever before." - Rickoff

    Comment


    • #62
      dutchdivco; Your last comment is a major problem with the brass in the big 3, they figure they can tell us what we want because of their own importance. And in fact they usually can tell most americans what they want and they will believe it.

      It should be of note also that emissions tests are geared to test at a basic emissions level so those with older cars that run properly should pass as well as newer cars, however law requires more stringent requirements on newly made vehicles above and beyond what an emissions test would require.

      I am a furvent believer that emissions should be based on volume and not on percentages alone. This would allow smaller cars to run lean and get better mileage without violating federal law on NOx emissions.

      In fact legally you are not supposed to run your car beyond a certain air/fuel mix because it messes up the emissions test and it increases NOx.

      So bad mileage is legislated. Even though decreasing the amount of fuel burned is always the best way of decreasing emissions.

      As for complaining, we all have our gripes, but I believe we probably haven't complained enough in the right way, things might not be where they are if people were much more fervent in their complaints toward those who cause the decisions made on our behalf.

      Comment


      • #63
        "Marketing"

        I am by no means an expert, but those that are say a real life experiment shows that marketing will not enable you to sell a bad or unworkable product. You can get people to try it, but if it really is of no use to them, they will not buy it again.(The 'real life experiment' involves FDS, i.e.Feminine deoderant spray.) When initially advertised, a lot of women bought it, but some small percentage 7-15% were repeat buyers, and all the advertising in the world couldn't change those #'s.
        On the other hand, recognising and taking advantage of human nature in the design and marketing of your product is a different matter all together.Bottom line is it FEELS good to step on the gas, and feel the car surge forward.And, it feels good to be driving something that makes you feel powerful and invulnerable.SUV's aren't safe, but they make you feel safe.And nobody held a gun to the head of all the idiots that bought them, in increasing #'s, in recent years.Collectively, I have seen the enemy, and he is me!

        Comment


        • #64
          Hi Rick, thanks for the reference work, we had a similar idea of a patent clause where if its environmentally sound technology its has life span where it will be offered up for sale and implemented by a government body. Also it had a shelf life, and must reach the market by a certain time or cannot be retained(kept) under the patent clause.

          Comment


          • #65
            "Corporate Greed"

            Hate to be a 'downer', as I'm generally an optimist, but I don't think any such 'simple' solution would be implemented, or would be workable.If there was an advantage in having an innovation deemed "environmentally beneficial', or whatever, either by Lawyers or lobbyists all sorts of stuff would be deemed to be so.
            Basically, the system is so polluted that I don't think you can make any significant improvement, without scrapping the whole thing, and starting over again.As an example;
            Mind you, I am no 'defender' of 'big PHarm' this is for illustration.
            Pretend you are the head of R & D for a pharmaceutical Co.After preliminary research, your subordinates submit to you proposals for new treatments.The ones you authorise get funding that may go into millions of dollars.You recieve 2 proposals, and while in life its never this simple, for this illustration will say everything except 1 factor is the same;same expense to do the research neccesary to bring the product to market, same odds of not having unacceptable side effects, etc. The only difference is this; product A is like insulin; its not a cure. The patient takes it every day, for the rest of their life, in order to "manage" the symproms of the disease. Product B, on the other hand, is like an antibiotic; The patient takes it 1-2-3 times a day for 30-60-90 days, (whatever) and they are CURED.Whats best for the Company? Product A. Whats best for the patient, and probably society, as well? Product B.If you pick product B, you will soon be out of a job, if the CEO supports you picking B, he will be out of a job. If the Board of directors decide the company is going to be run to be socially responsible rather than profit driven, their competitors with no such limitation, will soon run them out of business.The patent is only good for so many years, and then others can take advantage of the expensive research done to perfect the formula, for free.You'll recoup the most $ by selling someone a pill a day for life, rather than for a short treatment. Thats the way the system is.
            Another example; A researcher comes to you, again as head of R &D."I believe I've found a cure for Cancer/heart disease/whatever! Its SO simple, it simply involves combining food grade Hydrogen Peroxide with DMSO!" You ask "Is there any special process (we can patent) to making these ingredients, combining them, or administering them?" No sir, its so siple anyone could do it, in their kitchen, thats the beauty of it! Then, they just rub it on their skin! And it will only cost $10,000 to do the research to prove it works, and bring it to market!" Your respoce would be to remind them of the ironclad confidentiality agreements they signed and tell them they are to discuss this with NO one, nor are they to publish ANY of their research. After all, the company can't patent this, therefore can't make any $ on it. On the other hand, they have several "promising' treatments in the pipeline, that they have spent millions developing.On the margins, 'BIG Pharm" may have contributed to making the system this way, but for the most part, they are simply responding to the system THE WAY IT IS, and no little tweaking on the margins is going to change it.Just my opinion,....Jim

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by rickoff View Post
              Hi folks,
              To me, the EV technology is a story of two crimes against humanity. The first occurred when GM failed to develop the RV and sold the worldwide patent rights to an oil company, which GM obviously realized would have no interest in the technology other than to suppress it. The second crime against humanity is how Chevron very effectively stifled any efforts to utilize or advance the NiMH technology.

              What we really need is a reform of patent laws to allow for criminal prosecution and penalties against any patent holder who participates in any activity that results in suppression of a technology which would otherwise hold great promise for the benefit of mankind. The reform laws should include all past, present, and future patents. This is the only way to free up the thousands of existing patent rights that are currently being suppressed. Current patent laws only serve to protect the criminal actions and behavior of corporations and special interest groups who wish to advance their own agenda at the expense of all other peoples and groups.

              If you haven't already done so, please contact your legislative representatives and demand that they initiate patent law reform that fully addresses the changes that need to occur.

              Best regards,

              Rick
              Truer words have not been spoken!

              Many of our laws are beening misconstrued to be used against their original intent. Patent laws are supposed to support a company or inventor into bringing a product into the market, instead it is more often used to prevent a product from being created and brought to market.

              It is quite sad that it would be illegal for me to bring the proven e-95 batteries into the states but man if I could bring them in for personal use I would love a box of them in my little C-car.

              As for the pharma industry the trouble is thinking that there are real innovations being made. 90% of new drugs are NOT any more effective than older drugs (some are less effective or damaging) The remaining 10% almost always have severe issues that are not discussed fully, usually the time on market is insufficient to really know all the problems & effects of the drug anyway. Bring in the mix that natural alternatives are rarely tested for any application and if they are, they are tested incorrectly (remember the vitamin E fiasco with the fake vitaman E company?)

              Lets face it though how many arthritis sufferers want to hear you can't drink milk or eat products containing gluten? Even though that is long term effective in most cases, my uncle is living proof. Or that childhood epilepsi can be treated almost 100% effectively with a high oil, high fat, high protein diet, something we've known for 60 years?

              A biblical diet is probably still the best diet to be on if you are healthy, food in its natural form can sustain and cure us if we are patient enough.

              Most I think want the simple fix even if it kills them; so they do not have to pay attention to how they treat their body and so they do not have to make any sacrifice in what they eat, at least that seems to be the impression I get from many people.

              Comment


              • #67
                As I said, I am know friend or defender of big Pharm! Quite the contrary!You've hit on some of it, but the biggest one to me is "Drug testing"; They only test drugs on healthy people.Once they get approval, it goes thru the final phase of drug testing. Its called marketing. Thats when they find out, Oh, you shouldn't take it if you have liver problems, or heart murmur, or whatever condition, or if you are also taking x other medicines. On the other hand, if they tested it first, on people with every chronic condition and combination of conditions, and every other medication and combination of medications, well, how would they ever do that? Which was my point in my earlier post; The whole system is screwed up, and a little activism and tweaking the systems on the margins isn't going to change anything.On the other hand, I'm not ready to start hanging all the lawyers.....You know why the quote is "First thing we do is hang all the lawyers"? So there won't be anybody to defend all the beaurocrats, politicians, Beancounters, etc. who are next for the gallows.No, I'm just trying to get me and mine off grid, as much as possible. I do think "Open Source" represents the best route for change. Unfortunately, most people are still tied into the idea that the existing system is "safer' to them, than the unknown of real change.Like the couple stuck in a Loveless marriage, who stay together, miserable, cause its "safer' then either breaking up, or working thru their problems to make it a real marriage.Even with this economic crises, which is gonna be another "great Depression" (What was so great about it, anyhow?) people are still hoping 'they' can somehow make thing back the way they were, or at least o.k.Someday maybe the sheep will look up. We can only hope!Jim

                Comment


                • #68
                  Advisor to the "Detroit 3"?

                  On the other hand, recognising and taking advantage of human nature in the design and marketing of your product is a different matter all together.Bottom line is it FEELS good to step on the gas, and feel the car surge forward.And, it feels good to be driving something that makes you feel powerful and invulnerable.SUV's aren't safe, but they make you feel safe.And nobody held a gun to the head of all the idiots that bought them, in increasing #'s, in recent years.Collectively, I have seen the enemy, and he is me!
                  Maybe the big 3 in Detroit should hire this guy to help them to re-tool and re-design their cars.

                  Muscle Cars Meet Green Technology, CBS Evening News: One Mechanic's Formula For Mean, Green Power Machines - CBS News

                  Al
                  Antiquer

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Reply to Al:

                    Originally posted by ANTIQUER View Post
                    Maybe the big 3 in Detroit should hire this guy to help them to re-tool and re-design their cars.
                    Al
                    That's right, Al. What the US auto industry needs is innovators like Jonathan Goodwin leading the way. But even with his knowledge and expertise, would the big 3 follow Jonathan, or simply continue their current failed business plan? Now there's talk about appointing a "car czar" to oversee how Detroit spends the first 15 Billion of bailout money, and no doubt this will be an appointee who has absolutely no idea (other than financially, perhaps) of what Detroit really needs to do. How pathetic!

                    Rick
                    "Seek wisdom by keeping an open mind to alternative realities, questioning authority, and searching for truth. Only then, when you see or hear something that has 'the ring of truth' to it, will it be as if a veil has been lifted, and suddenly you will begin to hear and see far more clearly than ever before." - Rickoff

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Hi Rick, i added that in a video and on the web page on the patent office we have, Well done man.Will be up soon.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        More Please!

                        Yeah they came back for more after the $25B that started this thread...

                        Its been a rough ride for the Big 3. Today the house OKed more $$ and the Senate is going thru their motions...

                        Dont want to see these jobs go away but this throwing money at the problem is not the answer.

                        These companies need to be reoganized with major concessions by employees and thier design and engineering depts need to be streamlined to reality of current energy needs.

                        Let you representatives know
                        "But ye shall receive power..."
                        Acts 1:8

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          It doesn't matter anymore--this is all just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

                          The Crash Course | Chris Martenson

                          He may be wrong on peak oil (after all, peak oil is unprovable and therefore unscientific) but the rest is spot on.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by rickoff View Post
                            That's right, Al. What the US auto industry needs is innovators like Jonathan Goodwin leading the way. But even with his knowledge and expertise, would the big 3 follow Jonathan, or simply continue their current failed business plan? Now there's talk about appointing a "car czar" to oversee how Detroit spends the first 15 Billion of bailout money, and no doubt this will be an appointee who has absolutely no idea (other than financially, perhaps) of what Detroit really needs to do. How pathetic!

                            Rick
                            Yes it was just a yr ago that the news featured a highschool auto shop in Pennsylvania that inspired failing students to bring their grades up by showing them practical applications for what they were learning. These Highschool kids were building and driving cars that were stylish , fast and gettin 60 mpg +to boot. As so many have stated here what is holding the big 3 back is upper management; I have no doubt that there are more then a few concept engines sittin in back rooms somewhere at these corporations that would totally shock us with their capabilities.

                            What has bothered me with GM is the CEO a few yrs ago stated the American public would not buy small cars. Talk about an orchestrated arguement. Oh course small cars won't be bought when they get maybe 1 or 2 mpg more then a full sized impala. Who has the final say on what goes into production? Upper management.


                            Chrysler now thats a different situation , its owned by speculators. the folks that bought and own it were lookin to jack up stock values and flip the company , make a quick buck. They have no knowledge of how to build a decent car, or retool an assembly line, they are bean counters. They made a bet, and with out the bailout they lose.

                            Ford , while the best situated of the big 3, is begging the government to bail out the other 2 , because if they go belly up suppliers that supply all three may go belly up and hurt Ford in the process.

                            Pretty funny when asked if they had approached banks for loans , they acknowledged they had and the loans were under consideration. In other words don't call us we'll call you.

                            If it wasn't for the millions of jobs that hinmge on this I would say let them die. I work for an auto supplier, and while we are currently cut back and shut down, if GM and Chrysler fell off the face of the earth tomorrow it would be a 15% drop in business so we would survive.

                            If they want to survive they best let the people they hired because of their expertize use those creative talents to the max.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Rick, ANTIQUER et all.

                              About -Muscle Cars Meet Green Technology, CBS Evening News: One Mechanic's Formula For Mean, Green Power Machines - CBS News
                              If a high school drop out can do it, how does that justify billions to the car companies!!!!

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                After they pay off all the debts of People worldwide! HA...

                                No failout and suddenly GM can survive till feb. I watched the wagoner say it "we wont make it thru dec" What a farce the whole failout detriot has been. AMC failed and stockholders lost and I lost my job booo hooo,,, now, if one goes down its gonna take the whole world wide auto industry with it LOL Heard it on CNN a few hours ago "how Toyota will be hurt from this", "its worldwide"

                                Someone yelling fire on a crowded planet. Oh the fear.

                                Bye Bye GM
                                Hello WAR

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