Friction Steam Boiler

[little_old_lady]

If one were to go into the power generation business as a replacement for 60K a year of income, then I would presume that they would use raw logs and not need to chop or process any wood. By using the raw logs their fuel costs are probably 25% of the chopped wood and they would need to burn only 1/2 "cord" worth per work day, or 4, 12 foot long logs with a 1 foot diameter per day.

Then factor in that you do not have to pay payroll taxes on this income....

The only problem is it would probably cost $60K just to build a system this big.

[little_old_lady]

I am asking you if you could use the hot air coming out of the heater for an extra source of energy.

Maybe you could spin a blade connected to a dc generator...Every bit of free energy helps even is small amount. yes!

Every bit of energy you get comes at the expense of heat in the air.

[rileydad48]

Little Old Lady..
I will probably be sorry I even said this but ... I don't really know how this thread got going in this direction, and I not so sure it should have !!! I don't think anyone here is trying to replace their income as an electrical generating plant... That in it's self would be obsurd. If it were even possible. Lets just look at the impossible.. A generator head large enough to produce even 1/10 of the power you suggest would cost you more than 60K alone. Not to mention the wire in the sizes you would need to connect the system. Now lets build the Friction boiler ... I'm thinking maybe a 4 ft dia
x 12 ft long roller.. maybe 2" thick walls... with the encloser and the bearings..and the steam chamber.. Steel alone would probably be in the range of 60k. Not to mention construction costs of 200K or more.. and I haven't even touched on the horsepower needed to power the whole thing, or the size of the turbine you would need to produce that much power..
Do I have to go on... !!! I could see millions being spent on something that is relying on the power companies to pay you for... good luck on that!!

I'm just trying to heat my garage and maybe someday My home.. and if my plans work... maybe be one house off the grid..

This comments are solely my own and any rebuttal should be directed at me!

Paul

[rileydad48]

Guys...
Heres a little idea I came up with for a self sustaining system.. the main problem, is finding a "water Injector" of some sort to simplify the "water drop" system Llyod uses. Not that there's anything wrong with the drop system.. It Works.!! Just trying to simplify and make it a "set it and forget it" machine.
If anyone has any idea's please let it be known..
Thanks
Paul

[gene gene]

Paul,
My first post ever. I have a sketch of my own that is very similar to yours, but mine allowed for weight differance, after burn in to shape wood to drum, buy use of a pan in place of the weight with a water drip system to adjust friction for optimum rpm.
Hope this helps someone.
Great pics Paul, Wish I knew how to draw like that. I'm 56 years old and new to computers, have many green energy ideas.
Gene

[rileydad48]

Hi Gene..
I'm fairly new to the forum myself.. These guys are doing some interesting things in the area of renewable energy. I'm just happy to contribute what I can ( however useful it may be ). I'd love to see your sketch when you get around to posting it.. As far as the drawings, I just use the standard windows "Paint" program. Cad programs and I, have a hard time communicating. It never does what I want it to... LOL Tanners Friction device seems to me like an easy and simple way to product large amounts of heat and or steam for household use. Combine with Tesla's turbine, the possibilities are endless. Oh, by the way, you're never to old to learn.. I'm 60 and still learning... stick around this forum and you learn a lot.. I have!!

Paul

[little_old_lady]

Little Old Lady..
I will probably be sorry I even said this but ... I don't really know how this thread got going in this direction, and I not so sure it should have !!! I don't think anyone here is trying to replace their income as an electrical generating plant... That in it's self would be obsurd. If it were even possible. Lets just look at the impossible.. A generator head large enough to produce even 1/10 of the power you suggest would cost you more than 60K alone. Not to mention the wire in the sizes you would need to connect the system. Now lets build the Friction boiler ... I'm thinking maybe a 4 ft dia
x 12 ft long roller.. maybe 2" thick walls... with the encloser and the bearings..and the steam chamber.. Steel alone would probably be in the range of 60k. Not to mention construction costs of 200K or more.. and I haven't even touched on the horsepower needed to power the whole thing, or the size of the turbine you would need to produce that much power..
Do I have to go on... !!! I could see millions being spent on something that is relying on the power companies to pay you for... good luck on that!!

I'm just trying to heat my garage and maybe someday My home.. and if my plans work... maybe be one house off the grid..

This comments are solely my own and any rebuttal should be directed at me!

Paul

I see what you are saying, but think you over estimate the size needed. All you need is a 200 HP PTO generator which can be purchased for $8K, running 24-7 will produce enough power for 87K / year (pre fuel costs). So now all you need is a 200 HP steam engine casting for which can be purchased for $2K and you could probably get someone to build it for you for $10K or less. Then all you need is the steam which can be produced using 10 friction heaters of the size Lloyd has built hooked in series. I would guess these could be built for $3K each once you got the system down. Throw in another 10K for integration with the grid and you are good to go.

With respect to a simplified steam generation, I must ask if there is any benefit to the "instant vaporization" over heating an oil bath with a coper tube in it? The same amount of heat will get transfered into the water.

[everwiser]

For proper "leverage" and pumping, doesn't the flow in a Tesla turbine pump have to be from the outside circumference to the center? This would mean that your outlet from the steam turbine (at the center) would have to be directed to the outside of the air turbine and then the outlet from the center of it routed to your heat exchanger. Correct?

[nonubbins]

For proper "leverage" and pumping, doesn't the flow in a Tesla turbine pump have to be from the outside circumference to the center? This would mean that your outlet from the steam turbine (at the center) would have to be directed to the outside of the air turbine and then the outlet from the center of it routed to your heat exchanger. Correct?

No. I think his idea is that after going through the turbine the steam will have given up enough of its heat to convert back to hot water(condensate) and the pump will send it to where it can be utilized.

little_old_lady:
Paul said it well but I have one question. Where is the motive force for the friction heater(s) coming from? There is no way it will be a self-runner and turn a generator also! Can you imagine the fuel/electric bill? You'll be swapping money with the fuel/electric company!

My research of the Tesla turbine shows it needs to be built to precise dimensions just to be competitive. Unfortunately, no one seems to know exactly what those are and there are thousands of possible combinations to be designed for with each one unique to its application. There are many groups around the world that are trying to come up with an efficient design and the best I have seen is about 25-30%. If this thing was so awesome, some company would have developed one and others would have knocked the design off already! I don't buy that there is a conspiracy against it. Markets will eventually find the most efficient use of resources and adjust to use it. As a pump, however, it does have its place.

[rileydad48]

Everwiser...
The first stage on the Tesla device is a turbine.. just a simple turbine. Steam enters from the outside spins around in a spiral path ( draging the discs with it ) then exits out the center. Tesla's working turbine was 25" in dia with steel discs with a total width of all the discs being about one inch. Using 125 psi and 300 degree heat the turbine produced 200 HP. The Fasinating thing about the turbine is that the exhaust temperature was reduced by 1/3 and the pressure dropped from 125psi to less than 3psi...
The second part of my turbine is an air pump.. a simple air pump. Air or in this case steam.. enters at the center and the discs ( driven by the turbine) add the veloscity to the steam needed to get to the furnace or water heater or where ever it is needed.
As far as the question about being able to drive the boiler and the generator with this single turbine.. I can't say for certain.. But according to everything I've read about Tesla's " greatest invention" it is capable of 10 Hp
per pound. Please go back and read posts 203, 206 207 and 210 by Rickoff
There are some very good files to be found there. I figure I need about
12-15hp from the turbine to run the whole thing... Very do-able with the Tesla turbine.

Thanks
Paul

[everwiser]

Thanks for the info. My intent was not to dissuade nor to criticize the proposed plan but only to comment upon what I had seen/read about the Tesla Turbine up to this point. The outside-to-in operation was the way I've seen it configured in the various articles, posts, and alternate sites I have visited thus the post I made.

It seems to me that if the it's necessary for the flow to originate from the outer circumference to "spin the turbine up to speed" and generate its shaft power, then flow in the reverse direction would have the opposite effect thus making the device less efficient. If this thinking is incorrect, then I'm in the right place to learn but I won't learn otherwise if I don't ask.

[nonubbins]

Everwiser...
The first stage on the Tesla device is a turbine.. just a simple turbine. Steam enters from the outside spins around in a spiral path ( draging the discs with it ) then exits out the center. Tesla's working turbine was 25" in dia with steel discs with a total width of all the discs being about one inch. Using 125 psi and 300 degree heat the turbine produced 200 HP. The Fasinating thing about the turbine is that the exhaust temperature was reduced by 1/3 and the pressure dropped from 125psi to less than 3psi...
The second part of my turbine is an air pump.. a simple air pump. Air or in this case steam.. enters at the center and the discs ( driven by the turbine) add the veloscity to the steam needed to get to the furnace or water heater or where ever it is needed.
As far as the question about being able to drive the boiler and the generator with this single turbine.. I can't say for certain.. But according to everything I've read about Tesla's " greatest invention" it is capable of 10 Hp
per pound. Please go back and read posts 203, 206 207 and 210 by Rickoff
There are some very good files to be found there. I figure I need about
12-15hp from the turbine to run the whole thing... Very do-able with the Tesla turbine.

Thanks
Paul

1. How many cfm were required to make 200 hp?
2. I hope you or some one else builds one so we can see if it works. A Tesla turbine built with high efficiency will require R&D,$$$$$$$$$$, and powerful flow modeling software that doesn't exist yet, and optimized for your specific application. As it is, you'll be lucky to build one better than 20% efficient( I doubt even that ). And how many cfm or lbs/hr will yours require? Lloyd's heater only produces abour 125,000 btus.

[little_old_lady]

BTUs vs Power

When you say his heater only produces 125,000 BTUs is there an implied timeframe that I am not aware of? 125,000 BTUs / second is much more power than 125,000 BTUs per year. Also, do you know how much wood is required to generate 125,000 BTUs? How was this number determined?

[rileydad48]

nonubinns...

This is what all of pervious attachment all work towards... This is where I want to be... and I think it just might be possible with Tesla and Tanner together..

[rileydad48]

everwiser...
Yes you are correct.. The air pump will take power away from the turbine and you will never be able to get the pressure or heat back up to the level that enters the turbine.. without an external power sourse. Used in the way I laid it out.. the exhaust (heat and pressure) from the turbine is quite a bit less than what entered. Using the air pump (which also has fewer blades)
the power used will be minimal compaired to the power generated.
One thing you must remember.. These are just my Ideas.. even though Tesla's and Tanner's machines work and work very well.. I can't possitively
say for certain that changes won't have to be made to my Ideas to make it work like I want it to..
I'm not an engineer.. I can't do the math calculations and tell you it will work without building it first . If someone can... I'd love to here from you..

Thanks Paul