Friction Steam Boiler

[boguslaw]

Think VORTEX !

[rickoff]

Rick, one question. Didn't Tesla latter have an adjustable steam inlet or jet for his turbine, and might that be used to control RPM's of turbine?
Thanks to all,
Gene Gene

Hi Gene,

Yes, as you can see in Figure 1 of post # 277, Tesla had two adjustable flow inlet nozzles - one on either side of the runner. With valve #2 closed, and #1 partially opened, the turbine would start to spin. Opening the #1 valve further would increase the rpm. Closing #1 down somewhat, and opening #2, would cause braking action that would cause the turbine to stop when the inlet forces were equal. Closing #1 completely, the turbine would turn in a reverse rotation. Very simple and effective, isn't it?

Thanks for your offer to supply people with green oak in various scales. The actual lengths are a bit shorter than you figured, and this is what is needed:

Full scale = 4" x 4" x 12"
1/2 scale = 2" x 2" x 6"
1/4 scale = 1" x 1" x 3"

Keep in mind that the above dimensions are actual size. A 4" x 4" piece is exactly that - not 3.5" x 3.5", as you would find at a building supply store.

When building scaled down replications, the amount of force applied to the wood pieces should be scaled down accordingly. It might appear to some folks that since a full scale model uses 10 lb weights, that a 1/2 scale model should use 5 lb weights, but this is not so. What we want to accomplish is to apply the same force per square inch of surface contact. A 4" x 4" piece of wood will have a 16 square inch frictional surface area (actually more, because of the curvature against the roller.) A 2" x 2" wood block will have 4 square inches, or 1/4 the surface area. Therefore, 1/4 the weight, or 2.5 pounds, will be required for each wood piece to maintain the same pressure per square inch. The 1/4 scale model will use wood with just 1 square inch exposure, or 1/16 that of the 4 x 4. Thus, 1/16 of 10 lbs = 0.625 lbs, which is 5/8 lb, or 10 ounces. So in all three examples, the applied force of the exposed frictional surface is equalized at .625 lb per square inch. Of course you can add more weight to obtain more friction and obtain higher heat output, but this will result in a more powerful drive device being needed than would otherwise be required for the scale of the build. The power required to drive the shaft of the replication should vary the same as the applied force requirement. Therefore, it should require the following minimums:

Full scale = 1/4 hp X number of wood pieces
1/2 scale = 1/16 hp X number of wood pieces
1/4 scale = 1/64 hp X number of wood pieces

That's theoretical, of course, and based upon total force applied at each lesser scale being 1/4 the amount of the next larger scale. The total applied frictional force is relative to the torque required to turn the roller, as in the following examples:

Full scale = 0.5714 ft/lbs, or 6.86 inch/lbs torque per wood piece
1/2 scale = 0.1425 ft/lbs, or 1.71 inch/lbs torque per wood piece
1/4 scale = 0.0356 ft/lbs, or 0.43 inch/lbs torque per wood piece

These torque figures are based upon Lloyd's test showing that 8 ft/lbs of force was required to turn the roller with 14 wood pieces loaded and weighted for a total applied force of 140 lbs.

I hope you find the above figures helpful in determining the requirements for the scale of your replication. As I said, keep in mind that, aside from the wood sizing, the other factors are theoretically correct but may vary to some extent in actual practice. If the torque requirement holds true, then the power requirement should also hold true. If greater torque is required, then the percentage of required increase should also be applied to the minimum drive power required.

Best regards,

Rick

[rickoff]

Reply to boguslaw:

What about resin from wood ? Did anobody checked the electrical properties of this substance ? Maybe the wood which Loyd is using has special electrical properties which add energy to friction by induction currents. Is there a way to measure induction currents inside metal from distance ? THAT would be a proof of overunity by additional energy of electrocstatic flux being a current in case of rotation around the same metal surface.

Hi boguslaw,

The resin within the wood does play a part in the nature of the frictional evolvement, and I mentioned that factor in post #145. As the sap of the green wood is heated, and moisture evaporates, the sticky resins will thicken and should aid the friction process. Kind of like boiling down maple syrup, for example - it starts very thin and slippery, and gradually becomes more dense and sticky. Any type of friction is actually a chemical reaction, and when you add more chemistry to the equation - such as by adding the chemical properties of green oak vs dried oak, this can and does in fact increase the frictional heating. What actually occurs because of this added chemistry would be interesting to know, although we certainly don't need to know that to derive the benefits of using green wood. As you suggest, though, there may very well be more going on here than is readily apparent. It certainly doesn't hurt to explore the possibilities and test your theories to see if they hold weight. Frictional electricity is not only possible, but very probable to occur in Lloyd's device. To my knowledge, no one has attempted to measure the effect as produced in Lloyd's device, or to determine what becomes of it after being produced. It is either lost, such as by direct grounding, or somehow self utilized by Lloyd's device to enhance operation. Measurement of the frictional electricity produced is possible, of course, as appears to be revealed in the following job description:
-----------------------------------------------------------
Liquor Grinding Mill Operator
Tends one or more grinding mills that grind nibs (cracked cocoa beans) or preground nibs of cocoa bean paste to obtain liquid chocolate of specified consistency: starts machine and opens slide gate of hopper to release nibs, or turns valve to permit paste to flow through grinding stones. Observes ammeter on machine to determine amount of current produced by friction of grinding stone, and moves handles to adjust clearance between stones.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for your participation boguslaw. I hope that you find my reply helpful.

Best regards,

Rick

[Jetijs]

Rick,
my brother is interested in the Tesla turbine concept and now we are thinking of a way how to use the Tesla turbine advantages in a jetski. Might it be possible to use a Tesla turbine to replace the original jetski propeller? The thin with a Tesla turbine (pump) is that water enters from one direction and leaves the turbine in a 90 degree angle. In a jetski we need the water to leave the turbine in the same direction. So we thought that maybe such a design would work:



The water enters from bottom side and then is proplled from the middle part to the ends of the bent (bowl shape) blades. The bent blades should direct the flow in the same direction. What do you think about this idea? Could this work?
If it is total off topic, then I will move my post in another thread
Thanks,
Jetijs

[gene gene]

Hey Rick,
Thanks for the info on Tesla's adjustable flow inlet nozzles, and also for data on pressure per square inch. I would have been disapointed for sure in my test results if I had put on the breaks with the weight I had in mind.
Gene

[gene gene]

Hey Jetijs,
I have been thinking along the same lines, being a boater myself. If you start a new thread I would be most interested in it. I have a drawing of my vortex tesla turbine idea driving a Lloyds heater gen set, that might interest you. I just don't know how to post pics.
Was wondering how slow your turbine can run and still do a little work. I think it may be a match for driving the drip system on a Lloyds heater, I have a drawing of that also.
Thinking centripetaly,
Gene

[rileydad48]

Rick,
my brother is interested in the Tesla turbine concept and now we are thinking of a way how to use the Tesla turbine advantages in a jetski. Might it be possible to use a Tesla turbine to replace the original jetski propeller? The thin with a Tesla turbine (pump) is that water enters from one direction and leaves the turbine in a 90 degree angle. In a jetski we need the water to leave the turbine in the same direction. So we thought that maybe such a design would work:



The water enters from bottom side and then is proplled from the middle part to the ends of the bent (bowl shape) blades. The bent blades should direct the flow in the same direction. What do you think about this idea? Could this work?
If it is total off topic, then I will move my post in another thread
Thanks,
Jetijs

Jetijs... The the problem that I can see with this design is centrifigal force..
It would want to straighten the blades against the housing.. I would think you could make them strong enough, but at what scarifice to the design. It might be better to have two Tesla turbines hooked together.. One as a pump and one motor (although not driving the shaft, it would serve to re-direct the flow out the center of the second turbine.

Paul

[rickoff]

Reply to jetijs:

Rick,
my brother is interested in the Tesla turbine concept and now we are thinking of a way how to use the Tesla turbine advantages in a jetski. Might it be possible to use a Tesla turbine to replace the original jetski propeller? The thin with a Tesla turbine (pump) is that water enters from one direction and leaves the turbine in a 90 degree angle. In a jetski we need the water to leave the turbine in the same direction. So we thought that maybe such a design would work:

The water enters from bottom side and then is proplled from the middle part to the ends of the bent (bowl shape) blades. The bent blades should direct the flow in the same direction. What do you think about this idea? Could this work?

Hi Jetijs,

It is possible that this could work, although bending and aligning the blades will add much complexity to the build and may even reduce the efficiency seen with straight disks. The discs would have to be bent into a bowl shape. Otherwise, they would thrash the water.

The Tesla pump should be ideal for use with a jetski watercraft, but instead of bending the blades I would suggest that you simply route your intake manifolds to where you want to pick up water. The exhaust would already be aligned toward the rear of the craft, and can easily be deflected for steering. Consider the diagram for Tesla's fluid propulsion patent (US #1,061,142), as shown here:

I have added the labels and arrows to indicate the intake and exhaust ports, and as you can see, they are already aligned perfectly for use in a jetski if the pump is constructed in this manner. The only thing I would suggest altering is that the inflow could obviously be made to take a more gradual curvature towards the center of the disks, and I think that the near 90 degree bend as shown at the top outer part of the intake channel is only shown that way for simplicity. The flow would obviously be smoother if taking a more gentle curve towards the disc assembly opening. The curve of the intake manifolds around the circumference of the disc assembly is smooth and concentric, and is shown by the dotted lines in Figure 1.

I guess we tend to think alike, jetijs. The first thing I thought of, when looking at this "fluid propulsion" patent, was that it would be ideal for propelling a jetski. I can hardly wait to see your video test of that! Once you demonstrate how powerful the pump is, compared to a standard jetski pump, you will probably have many people inquiring about a conversion for their craft.

Best wishes to you, and please give my regards to Pai Mei,

Rick

[Jetijs]

Hi Rick.
Thank you for your answer
Also greetings from PaiMei
I forgot to mention that the jet ski shaft also needs to be in direction of the water flow. Tou can see that in this picture:

How can we solve this?
Anyway, today was not my day, must be a kalijuga or something. I got the custom laser cut washers, that were cut form the same 1mm thick stainless steel plate. I found that the washers were not the cause of all the trouble, some of the blades were not flat, but bent on some places a little bit. So I chose the flattest plates form all the bunch and used them. This time I got almost perfectly even gaps and there was no vobble effect anymore. I set the gaps to be 2mm wide. Here are some pictures of the rotor:





Now when I assembled everything together, the end blades were touching the felt seal a little bit, but this created only a minor drag, the rotor would still spin for a while by itself if I turned it by hand. But I noticed another bad thing, now the plates were offcenter from the shaft a bit. This creates vibration at high speeds. I can still get almost the same RPMs than before, in fac a little less, at the same pressure, but the vibration is the same. It is just that this time it is from the offcentre blades rather than the bobble effect. Anyhow, I verified that this turbine has equal torque at any RPM's, at least it felt like this. It took almost all the strength of one of my hands to hold the shaft still at 30PSI. If I let it gain speed, then the same amount of force needs to be applied to get it to stop, it just takes a while till the RPM's drop.
A little less force, and the movement is sustained. Anyway, if you want to do it correctly, you need a bit thicker blades, wider washers and wider spokes, so it can't bend easily. Also the blades need to be mounted on the shaft and then a lathe work needs to be done so that there is no offcenter.

Paul, what you say makes sense Thank you!
Gene, thanks for your post too I as I said, the torque seems to be the same regardless of the speed, that should answer your question
Thank you,
Jetijs.

[rickoff]

Reply to Jetijs:

Hi Jetijs,

With the Tesla pump as the motive force, you no longer need the shaft extension with the impeller. Just throw that out! Connect the Tesla pump directly to the craft's intake and outflow, and you're done. If your concern is the alignment of the drive engine's shaft to the Tesla pump, you can do any of the following:
1. If space allows, the engine can be turned 90 degrees and remounted alongside the turbine. (Not my favorite solution.)
2. The engine can be left mounted as is, and a 90 degree drive coupling can connect the engine shaft to the pump. (Much easier.)
3. The pump shaft can be connected to the engine shaft in the same plane, and the pump exhaust may be curved towards, and connect to, the craft's outflow channel by using an appropriately shaped tube connected to the pump's exhaust flange. (This seems the easiest, and probably the least costly, unless the 90 degree drive coupling can be found or made inexpensively. This direct drive method would seem to offer the greatest efficiency and performance, however. You could experiment with this method using some flexible tubing of sufficient diameter, and support it at any bends so that it doesn't tend to whip around.

It's good that you eliminated the wobble effect on the runner assembly. The slight off-center effect seems to show that there is either a looser fit between the disc center holes and the shaft than you had thought, or that the centers were machined slightly off center. Either way, as long as as the discs cannot possibly rotate their positions on the shaft, you can true the assembly in a lathe by cutting or grinding as necessary.

You had mentioned, back in post #322, that the discs are 1mm thick, which would be .040 inch. You really shouldn't need to go any thicker than that, as Tesla used .03125 inch (0.79 mm) discs in his 200 hp turbine. You just need a means of maintaining stability, and the British patent design, as shown in post #282 shows how to do this using thick, tapered end discs and sets of stabilizing pins which connect adjacent discs. The pins do not go through the entire assembly, but are staggered as shown in the patent diagram, and are labeled number 6. They are seen better at the bottom of the view. In the actual patent description, which can be viewed at the following link, Tesla explains the use of the pins, and also offers an alternative method of "accomplishing the spacing by means of small bosses or protuberances which are raised in the plates by blows or pressure..... practically reducing all the machine work on a thin plate to a single operation in a stamping press."
Nikola Tesla: Disk Turbine/Pump, part 2
In the above patent, Tesla also says that it is preferred to somewhat taper all of the discs near the outer perimeter, as this reduces centrifugal stess. It would also appear to reduce surface drag on the circumference, and this is probably one of the reasons for choosing thin discs in the first place. Another reason is to reduce weight, and a third reason would be to reduce the overall width necessary for the "runner," which is simply the completed disc assembly. One "runner" can incorporate multiple discs.

Wider spokes, as you mention, and which are normally used in Tesla turbines, will definitely add stability.

Hope this helps,

Rick

[rickoff]

About posting photos or diagrams:

I have a drawing of my vortex tesla turbine idea driving a Lloyds heater gen set, that might interest you. I just don't know how to post pics.

The Forum has a very limited amount of filespace for each user, and you will run out quickly if you use the paper clip icon for posting photos and diagrams. It also bogs down the forum's file server. It is better to upload your photos or diagrams to an Internet site that offers free file storage and sharing. I use Windows Live Sky Drive for this purpose. They give you 6 gigabytes of free storage space for your files. You can sign up here: Sign In

After signing into Windows Live, click the More drop down menu and then click Sky Drive. Put photos into the Public Folder so that anyone can view them. To do this, first click to open the Public Folder. It is best to arrange your photos, diagrams, documents, and whatever else you want to store, in appropriately named folders, just as you do on your computer. Click the Create folder link, give it a name, and then click the Create folder button. The folder will open immediately, and then you can click the Add files link. The upload window will open, and you can choose up to 5 files to be uploaded to your Sky Drive from your computer. The original files stay on your computer, of course, and only copies are uploaded. After you upload a photo, click its icon to open it and then click the photo one more time to view it at 100%. Then copy the URL (the web address). The easiest way to do that is to point your mouse any place inside the web address pane (at top of your browser window), then single-right-click the mouse and choose Copy from the drop-down menu that appears. Next, open your Energetic Forum thread message window and decide where you want to place the picture. Click your mouse once at that location, then go up and click the yellow icon on the tool bar (the one with image that looks like a mountain peak) - if you point at it, it will say "Insert Image." It then waits for you to paste in the URL that you copied from your Sky Drive site where your photo is located. A small window will open for that purpose, and say "Please enter the URL of your image." Note: if you don't see a URL window, then look up near the top of your screen, as you may be getting a message saying, "This website is using a scripted window to ask you for information. If you trust this website, click here to allow scripted windows....." If you see that message, go ahead and click on it, then next time you click the Insert Image icon you will get the URL window. Inside the URL window, single-right-click the blue highlighted area that says, "http://" and choose Paste from the drop-down menu. Then click the OK button. When you add pictures this way, you will see your photo or illustration posted full size, and it doesn't consume any filespace whatsoever on Energetic Forum. The photo simply "appears" to be inside your post, although it is actually in your Sky Drive. Your posts will look more impressive than by using the paper clip icon, and no mouse clicks will be necessary by users when viewing them. A final note - when working on and saving a diagram, such as the one in my post #93 of this thread, which I created in MS Paint, it is best to save it as a bitmap image (bmp file). That way, it has the highest possible resolution, and anyone can zoom in to 200%, or even 400% to see details that would normally be difficult to see at 60 to 100%. It takes more filespace than a jpeg file, but the quality is much better, and with 6 gigabytes storage space on your Sky Drive, you won't need to worry about file size. Just make sure that you save as a bmp file at the end of your first work session. If you save your work first as a jpg file, and convert it to a bmp file later, you will be disappointed in the results. MS Paint is a program that can be found in the Accessories folder of any computer with a Windows operating system.

Hope that helps. I know it's a little confusing when you first start posting images, but once you understand how then it gets simple. It takes a lot longer to read the above instructions than it does to perform a photo or diagram insertion, and the second time around you will accomplish the task very quickly.

Best regards to all,

Rick

[gene gene]

Hi Rick,
Thanks for info on how to post pics. I now have sky drive and will try to post a couple of my drawings.

I just see url no pic.
Thanks, Gene

[gene gene]

Hi Rick,
Have now confirmed with sky drive by email and will try again.

Same thing
Thanks, Gene

[gene gene]

Rick, 3rd try, to post pic.

This shows the drip system that I was Asking Jetijs about power at low RPM's to drive the sprinkler. I think it would have to be very slow.
Thanks, Gene

[sykavy]

Thanks Rick
I have a tachometer and will try to measure the RPM's, but I also think that they are about 10k or more. The blade disks are 130mm in diameter and 1mm thick. The blade material is stainless steel. The air gap between the blades is around 1.5mm, but it is not equal because those spacer washers are not precise. I don't know what pressure I was using, but I have a pressure regulator and will use it in my next tests. It is sure hard to stop this thing by hand and there is a great gyroscopic effect at high RPM's. Will work now on better air distributor, so that all the gaps get equal amount of air. It's a shame that I can not use this turbine with steam, because the acrylic casing can not whitstand high temperatures. But this thing sure has a lot of power

super charger

A different idea connected to the idea of a screw compressor, I was thinking is, what if in Tesla's turbine the spacers( discs about half the size of the bigger disks) had holes that matched the holes of the bigger disks. One would have three "pipes"( made by pressing all the disks tightly together) Now twist the "pipes" ( the holes in the disks--- ala Schauberger) One would have a screw compressor (supercharger) similar to the above screw compressor only in reverse, if the holes gradually got smaller. So instead of putting the pressure on the outside walls( as in above pattent) it would be putting pressure into the center of the swirling air-- like little "tornadoes." Does that make sense?