Friction Steam Boiler

[groundhog]

Reply to Rickoff

Any further and I'd be surfin' in the pacific! LOL So. CA is my loc, but i'm truly blessed to be in the mountains out here, away from the city hub-bub and a little closer to nature with abundant supply of all types of firewood or in this case hardwood for the steamer!

It's also been unseasonably cool and foggy/rainy here as well (no complaints), the 'June-Gloom' from when I was a kid here has returned and also much of the moisture!

[groundhog]

Finally... a tesla turbine update!

Hello again Rick,

I was finally able to meet with the shop owner yesterday to discuss the tesla turbine and steamer design. And much to my surprise, and pleasure, was treated with a look at HIS working tesla turbines (both motor and pump designs). Evidently he has been designing and testing these turbines with several of his clients for their individual applications for quite some time. He has tested them with a number of different gases and has found exactly what tesla himself found... that steam is by far the best. And not superheated steam but rather low temp steam at that.

According to his tests, the turbines love the low temp (wet) steam whereas bladed turbine cannot handle anything but super heated (dry) steam. And he evidenced a thorough knowledge of the principals of steam expansion discussed here in this thread earlier.

The working model that I saw has a runner of approx 6-7 inches with 4 nozzles spaced at equal intervals around the perimeter. The actual runner itself is less than an inch thick and I could not distinguish how many plates were contained within it (but I did see several of his pump runners and they each contained 5 plates). According to his tests, this unit attains a rotational speed of approx 20K rpm using his shop compressor running a continuous 80 psi through the 4 nozzle hoses of approx. 3/8" ea. With that particular setup and speed, the turbine measures an incredible 20 brake hp! The whole unit is about the diameter of a volleyball and weighs not more than 3-4 lbs. He stated very clearly that with low temp steam at the pressure we have discussed in this thread earlier (300deg-125psi) this particular turbine is capable of much more speed and hp without any modification. He also has a turbine with 10" plates that he stated could exceed 50hp on the same. unfortunately I didn't get to see that one as it was disassembled at the time of my visit.

He is very interested in helping to design and build a replication of lloyd's steamer as his biggest obstacle to an effective turbine application has been the absence of an efficient steam generation source. So I think I have made an invaluable ally in my attempt to replicate lloyd's steamer! I will be meeting with him again in the near future, as my work and his schedule permits, to present the drawings and discuss the different design possibilities and at that time will have more info to post here and maybe some drawings of the build attempt.

In response to your question of whether or not he uses the TEBA design specs. No. He has designed a proprietary nozzle setup for his turbines, but the runner plates look to be standard tesla designs. And he wasn't familiar with the TEBA organization when I mentioned their name. However, with the simplicity of this turbine, the differences are probably very minor with the exception of the nozzle design.

So, in my mind, this does seem the most efficient way of utilizing the steam generated by lloyds steamer to generate power, and I will be pursuing this goal with my build. Only time, money, and testing will now tell for sure....

But I will keep you posted on my progress here. Thanks for all your efforts in this thread (& the others, too!), Rick!! Without all of the time and info you have shared here and elsewhere, this invention may have gone unnoticed and never gotten developed further!

Best regards,

rick;-)

[gene gene]

Winters a coming !!!!

Hi all,

I usually just say hi Rick, but now find myself in the middle, one hour south of lake superior, in northern Wi.

I am happy to see activity here again for I have been thinking much about Lloyds friction steam. If I can get this up and running in my shop then at least I'll be warm while I'm working on my MOSTAT-PMM-Gen.

It's good to see others thinking about Tesla turbine drive on this because I believe this is the best way to go. Hey west Rick, did you talk $ with your machine shop friend?

If it might be of interest to anyone here, that may be building their own turbine. The last time I was at the computer recycle warehouse here (2 weeks ago) I found, way in the back, 6 big old hard drives. They are approximately 14 in. diameter and have 11 disks + 1 which as I remember was a bit larger. I believe the disks are aluminum and am not sure if they could stand up to the heat and RPMS but at $35 each? Perhaps Rickoff could in-put here but I do not wish to take him away from his PMM either.

My friend who is head of sales there, said that they sold one stack the week before, so I really do not know if they even have any now. He said that they are a thing of the past, and have not received any for maybe 15 years now.

If anyone is interested I can take pics of the drive stacks and post, after Thurs. I will pack and ship for $35 plus shipping cost only.

I hope this can help someone,

Gene

[groundhog]

Reply to gene gene

Hello there gene gene,

Yes, I've been frustrated as of late that I haven't had the time or resources to pursue this idea much... and it looks as if the others that were active here awhile back are in the same boat. To answer your question, no, unfortunately I did not get to talk much $$ with him about the turbine as we only had about 30 min to meet. Although I did get him to give me a comparatively good quote for his shop time. (Next time I meet with him I'll pin him down on a price for the smaller sized turbine, as is, and let you know.)

It was kind of funny... we were talking about the turbine and as soon as I mentioned lloyd's steamer device his eyebrows went up and that's all he wanted to talk about. He basically kept saying 'don't worry about the turbine...if this steamer device will produce THAT much steam, then the turbine will be a cinch and provide way more power than you can imagine... now describe this steamer again... how much volume does it produce..."

I really got the impression that I struck a chord with him on a subject that he'd been kind of frustrated about in the past. And although this idea it's still in the speculation stage, it did give me alot of hope that we're on the right track with the tesla turbine idea.

Now, though, as I consider my build design, I have been wondering about some details, and maybe you (or some others) might have some input...

I have definitely decided to pursue the turbine application combined with the steamer, and will build the steamer first. But, here is my question. If the turbine works best with the low temp/ high pressure steam, what would the best way to combine the two technologies? The steamer appears to do well while producing high volumes of superheated steam, would it be best to make the steamer 'as is' and cool the steam before it gets to the the turbine (similar to tesla's 200hp machine at the power plant)? Or would it be better to make the steam chamber more like a traditional boiler and maintain the water within it to the 300 or so degrees at high pressure required by the turbine. But then again, perhaps the turbine will still perform adequately with the superheated steam straight from the steamer, since it is high pressure from the steamer and this man's turbine produced 20 hp with just 80psi of cool compressed air.

I'm just really thinking out loud and hoping for some input. Do you have any experience the these turbines? What do you think?

Regards (to the middle, LOL) from the west,

rick;-)

[oldHermit]

But, here is my question. If the turbine works best with the low temp/ high pressure steam, what would the best way to combine the two technologies? The steamer appears to do well while producing high volumes of superheated steam, would it be best to make the steamer 'as is' and cool the steam before it gets to the the turbine (similar to tesla's 200hp machine at the power plant)? Or would it be better to make the steam chamber more like a traditional boiler and maintain the water within it to the 300 or so degrees at high pressure required by the turbine. But then again, perhaps the turbine will still perform adequately with the superheated steam straight from the steamer, since it is high pressure from the steamer and this man's turbine produced 20 hp with just 80psi of cool compressed air.

I'm just really thinking out loud and hoping for some input. Do you have any experience the these turbines? What do you think?

I've got a steamer half built/welded, but personal stuff has put it on hiatus for the time being. My thought is that without knowing exactly what the steamer will do first hand, I can't decide how to use the end product (heat/steam). I do know you don't want to run that sucker inside; the scorching of the wood is very smelly. That aside, I'm setting it up to have the steam go into a pressure tank to work from and as a reserve so I'll have options about how it's used.

There's some input for you. Hope you get one built and will share the pitfalls so others (like me?) won't have to make the same mistakes over again.

oldHermit...

[rickoff]

Hi from the man in Maine

Hi fellas,

I'm glad to see some renewed activity here in the friction steamer thread. Groundhog, it would seem to me that your turbine builder friend's unit should put out quite a bit more power under steam. For example, compare it with Tesla's 110 horsepower unit, wich was about the same size. Here's a link to a photo of the turbine: http://www.teslaengine.org/images/tesla1.jpg

Here's what Tesla said about this turbine - "“It is an engine that does all that engineers have ever dreamed of an engine doing, and more. Down at the Waterside power station of the New York Edison Company, through their courtesy, I have had a number of such engines in operation. In one of them, the disks are only nine inches in diameter and the whole working part is two inches thick. With steam as the propulsive fluid it develops 110-horse power, and could do twice as much.”

So it seems that Tesla was saying that while this turbine was tested with a 110 hp output, it was capable of twice that power under certain conditions. That probaly would have been an unsafe operating mode excepting for a very short duration, as it most certainly would have caused warping and/or other damage to the runner assembly if that output was sustained for any appreciable length of time. With materials available today, though, sustained high rpm output under high temperature conditions is feasible. Lloyd's device is certainly capable of providing steam in a wide working range of pressures and temperatures, so the possibilities are wide open. Frankly, I don't see any need to run the tubine at ultra high rpms or extreme heat and pressure. High torque is available even at very low rpm, and you only want to turn a generator head at about 1855 rpm. You could certainly operate the turbine at 18, 550 rpm, and use 10:1 gear reduction to drive the generator, but keep in mind that every revolution uses a specific amount of steam. What you want to aim for is the least volume of steam, at the lowest possible temperature and pressure that will get the job done.

Good luck with your builds, and please do post photos and specs here. Originally I had hoped to have my own friction steamer replication well under way by this time, but my work on the Pipe Dream build has demanded nearly all of my available time. It has also set me back a few months on my plans to move nearer to my summer cottage, and with the good weather in August I could no longer put off renovation projects needing to be done at both my home and cottage. Summers are very short here, so I've been working as hard as I can to get things done before the colder months arrive. I only have about 3 more weeks to finish up, so I am at it every day. Meawhile, my friction steamer and Pipe Dream build are both taking a back seat, but I haven't forgotten them and will continue working on them whenever time allows.

Thanks for your continued interest, gentlemen, and may the force be with you.

Best regards,

Rick

[groundhog]

Replies...

Old hermit...

Thank you for your input... very good 'food for thought' indeed. After posting the above questions and getting some clarity in my thinking (so many ideas...so little time...too little sleep!), I did come to some of the same conclusions. I, too, will build it 'as is' at first, then with the actual operational data in hand can make more informed decisions about the utilization of the product. Funny that you mention the smell, I was wondering about that and also the noise factor. I think it was lloyd that mentioned somewhere in one of Rick's quotes that the sounds of the device (from the friction) can be irritating to some as well.
Tho' I am just beginning to really get working on this, it does sound like you are quite a bit farther along in your build. Hopefully you will be able to resume work on yours as well and lead the pack to victory, so to speak!

Rick...

It's good to hear from you again, Tho' I understand the need to capitalize on the good weather, I'm still 'itchin' for more of your PMM project! But, hey, maybe it'll give some of us slow pokes time to catch up and get ours nearer completion! Yes, the gentleman did very clearly state that his turbine would perform MUCH better on the steam. I think the addition of more discs and corresponding width and mass to the runner assembly of his turbine would also greatly enhance the performance as well. Although the meeting produced good results I was disappointed to not really get a chance to obtain more definitive data. But, that will come as we get this project going for sure. Ahhgg....patience.....

Greetings again from the west.....

rick;-)

[bwiab]

Build a Steamer in Milwaukee

New member here. I'm not an engineer, but am super interested in Lloyd's steamer. I am in Milwaukee and am looking for any like minded individuals who would like to vet this technology on paper and put together a prototype. Send me an email or pm. I cannot do any of the calc's myself, but am a whiz with autocad, working on learning Inventor and am pretty handy in the shop. Like all of you I see truly amazing potential for this technology.

Rickoff - thanks for your amazing efforts on documenting this idea.

[rickoff]

Hi bwiab, and thanks for your interest in this thread. It would be great if you could make up some autocad drawings of Lloyd's device and post download links to them here. You have probably seen my cutaway drawing of Lloyd's original machine, which is my interpretation of how the machine might best be constructed. I notice Lloyd is using the picture on his website, so it looks as though he approves of it. If you would make up some working and assembly drawings, I think that would be most helpful to readers. If you would care to do that, and if you have any questions regarding dimensions, etc., please don't hesitate to ask.

Best regards to you,

Rick

[phi1.62]

Ted Pritchard's steam car

In the 1970's an Australian mechanical engineer named Ted Pritchard developed a steam engine for use in automobiles, which he had fitted into a 1963 Ford Falcon. The engine was light weight, ran quietly, had very low emissions and had a fuel consumption of 5 litres per 100 km. The engine also allowed for any fuel with a sufficient octane rating to be used to run a vehicle without any modifications to the engine.

Pritchard brought the car to United States to be view and tested by the major manufacturers. In spite of their praise of the engine, none of them ever backed the development of Pritchard's engine. Pritchard did end up getting financial support from Federal and State governments, which resulted in a few engines and a car designed by Pritchard being built, but this was eventually pulled away and by the early 1980's Pritchard ceased the project due to a lack of financial support.

Pritchard died in 2007. Prior to his death Pritchard tried to resurrect his engine for use as a generator, which continues to be developed.

In the following clips one is with Ted talking briefly about the engine while the other is a demonstration of the generator:

YouTube - Steam Powered 1963 Ford Falcon

YouTube - Pritchard Power Systems S5000 Steam Engine - Combined Heat and Power from Renewable Fuels

While looking for further information on Pritchard's engine I came across a Wikipedia article on steam cars. Apparently they can be quite efficient.

Saab steam car

As a result of the 1973 oil crisis, SAAB started a project in 1974 headed by Dr. Ove Platell which made a prototype steam-powered car. The engine used an electronically-controlled 28 pound multi-parallel-circuit steam generator with 1 millimetre bore tubing and 16 gallons per hour firing rate which was intended to produce 160 hp (119 kW), and was about the same size as a standard car battery. Lengthy start-up times were avoided by using air compressed and stored when the car was running to power the car upon starting until adequate steam pressure was built up. The engine used a conical rotary valve made from pure boron nitride. To conserve water, a hermetically sealed water system was used.

Enginion Steamcell

From 1996, a R&D subsidiary of the Volkswagen group called Enginion AG was developing a system called ZEE (Zero Emissions Engine). It produced steam almost instantly without an open flame, and took 30 seconds to reach maximum power from a cold start. Their third prototype, EZEE03, was a three-cylinder unit meant to fit in a Škoda Fabia automobile. The EZEE03 was described as having a "two-stroke" (i.e. single-acting) engine of 1000 cc (61 cubic inch) displacement, producing up to 220 hp (500 N·m or 369 ft·lbf).[9] Exhaust emissions were said to be far below the SULEV standard. It had an "oilless" engine with ceramic cylinder linings using steam instead of oil as a lubricant. However, Enginion found that the market was not ready for steam cars, so they opted instead to develop the "Steamcell" power generator/heating system based on similar technology.

[rickoff]

Thanks for the post, phi1.62

The story of Ted Pritchard pefectly illustrates how innovative people who have something beneficial to offer society are methodically suppressed by corporate interests who are only interested in promoting and prolonging their greedy agendas. As pointed out in earlier posts in this thread, steam cars were once far more popular than gasoline powered vehicles, which only became popular as the result of being made so cheaply as to be affordable to the masses. But look at their cost now, both in environmental and monetary considerations. Nowadays a decent car costs about 1/4 the price of a home, and the burning of fossil fuels in gasoline and diesel engines fills our atmosphere with deadly toxins.

I like the Pritchard and Steamcell power generator/heating systems, and those ideas go along well with what we are discussing here. It only makes sense that if you are going to utilize some form of fuel to create heat, that you also utilize that heat to provide secondary and further benefits in order to maximize the effective usage of the fuel. I think that is what is so special about Lloyd's device, because it offers so many possible uses while greatly conserving fuel usage.

Thanks again, and best regards to you,

Rick

[FuzzyTomCat]

Hi everyone,

I was just wondering if anyone here or elsewhere has progressed with a replication or a modified version of Lloyd Tanners "Friction Steam Boiler" as of lately ..... or any news on his work on this possible high heating COP device ??

Best Regards,
Glen

[rickoff]

Reply to Glen:

Hi Glen,

It has been a while since we have conversed. Regarding Lloyd Tanner, I have sent a message to him and am awaiting a reply, which I will post when received. The last time I corresponded with him he indicated that per advice from his lawyer he could not go into further detail concerning his newest device (the horizontal friction roller design). I assumed that he was probably either attempting to patent the design, or that he was working on a manufacturing license agreement with some entity. So, I'm not at all certain that we will be able to learn any further details. Still, I think that LLoyd has already provided us with sufficient knowledge to enable replications of either the vertical or horizontal designs.

I have kept looking at my local recycling center for items that I could scavenge to use in building a replication, and have done fairly well at that. I have not started the actual fabrication yet, and this is because of two reasons. First, I wanted to hold off until my home here has sold, and I am resituated. Secondly, I have been tied up with my Pipe Dream magnetic motor project, which for now takes precedence. I know that others who have visited this thread have embarked on replications, or modified replications of Lloyd's friction steamer device, but have not heard reports as to their progress as of yet. You had mentioned, early on, that you would be building a replication. How far have you progressed with that? I'd love to hear from anyone who has built, or is currently building a replication, and it would be great if they would share some drawings, photos and/or video. Let's keep this thread going.

Best regards to all,

Rick

[Que]

I've got a steamer half built/welded, but personal stuff has put it on hiatus for the time being. My thought is that without knowing exactly what the steamer will do first hand, I can't decide how to use the end product (heat/steam). I do know you don't want to run that sucker inside; the scorching of the wood is very smelly. That aside, I'm setting it up to have the steam go into a pressure tank to work from and as a reserve so I'll have options about how it's used.

There's some input for you. Hope you get one built and will share the pitfalls so others (like me?) won't have to make the same mistakes over again.

oldHermit...

Hi oldHermit,

Instead of using wood which will smell, why don't you use a bar of iron or a block of granite of a specific weight not to overload a veritcal spinning metal wheel below it and use the downward force of gravity to create the pressure.

[rickoff]

Instead of using wood which will smell, why don't you use a bar of iron or a block of granite of a specific weight not to overload a veritcal spinning metal wheel below it and use the downward force of gravity to create the pressure?

1. Because it would be very noisy.
2. Because it would rapidly wear down and destroy the rotor.
3. Because utilizing green hardwood produces high heat values without the above problems.

The downward force of gravity is used by Lloyd's device. A system of suspended weights forces the hardwood pieces against the rotor at a constant and predetermined pressure. As to the smell, Lloyd points out that occasionally his device will emit a small puff of smoke. You could certainly install something similar to a range hood over the device to collect any such emissions and discharge them outdoors. Lloyd uses his devices in his garage, without any collection/discharge apparatus, and hasn't seen this as a problem. He only suggests that the unit might better be utilized in a garage or workshop separated from the house due to the noise level, which while not normally overbearing could prove disturbing while you are attempting to sleep. So if used in a basement, or an attached garage or workshop, it would be wise to do some soundproofing.

Rick