Friction Steam Boiler

[theremart]

Thanks Rick

You have made several valid points.

Another problem I see with the cavitation method is the high rpms required to make it work...

I was thinking I have tons of skids for free around where I live... if one could do this and not worry about the nails.... sure seems like a nice way to go.

[rickoff]

Re: RPM's

Yes Mart, the cavitation method does seem to require a higher rpm. I seem to remember reading it is something like 3600 rpm. If that is so, it is twice the recommended rpm of Lloyd's device, so you would need a larger and more powerful electic motor than the 1 hp drive motor used by Lloyd in the video. You may have noticed that the electric motors used with all the hydrosonic pumps pictured at the Hydro Dynamics website are considerably larger than the pumps. For example, see: Hydro Dynamics, Inc - The Solutions Company

Something else that I forgot to mention relates to professional test results of the Griggs pump. Jed Rothwell conducted a detailed engineering investigation of the device in January 1994, and reported the following: "During one of the demonstrations we watched, over a 20 minute period, 4.80 Kilowatt Hours of electricity was input, and 19,050 BTUs of heat evolved..."
At that rate, you would have roughly 57,000 BTU's per hour. My oil fired boiler is rated at 100,000 BTU's, and when the temperature here drops near zero the burner runs almost continously. So 57,000 BTU's wouldn't do the job. I would need a pump with nearly twice the capacity, which would of course require an even larger drive motor that uses more electricity.

You mentioned having lots of "skids" available - are you referring to wooden pallets that are used by forklift equipment? Of course that would be dry wood, which wouldn't be suitable for loading. You don't want the wood to ignite, and that's why Lloyd uses green, fresh cut wood. You could soak dry wood to give it some moisture content, but that still may not be as good as green wood, which also contains sticky sap that thickens as it is heated (just think of maple syrup). The sap may actually aid the friction process while preventing ignition of the wood. That's just a hypothesis, and to find what works best (and why) one would have to build a demonstrator and test different woods. My guess is that soft wood probably wouldn't be suitable. It would not produce as much friction as hardwood, since the fibers would tend to flex and give way. And because soft wood is less dense, it would retain a greater volume of moisture and further decrease the friction effect.

That's all I can think of for the moment. I think that everything is now covered, concerning the basics of Lloyd's device. I'll keep watching here to try and answer any new questions that arise, and will add some drawings soon to illustrate a few of the possible adaptations for Lloyd's friction heater.

Best to all,

Rick

[rsc]

Why not just use TEG for voltage.

You could run the steam through some piping to heat up the TEG's

Dry Ice and alcohol as a cooling agent.

Keep it simple!!!

Spin a MG set and you have it.

Rod

[silversearcher]

Green steam engine?

Hi everyone, my name is Ron and I'm new to this group.

I hope to build a small friction boiler and build a small steam engine to run a small generator.
Is anyone here building the Green steam engine or does anyone know of a group that may be doing that?

Once I get going I'll report back here with my efforts and pictures.

Thanks, Ron

[rickoff]

Reply to Rod (rsc):

Why not just use TEG for voltage.
You could run the steam through some piping to heat up the TEG's
Dry Ice and alcohol as a cooling agent. Keep it simple!!!
Spin a MG set and you have it.
Rod

Hi Rod,

I assume that your use of the TEG acronym refers to a Thermo Electric Generator, which is a solid state device using semiconductor p-n junctions to convert temperature differences directly into DC electrical energy. A motor generator (MG set), or an inverter, could then convert the DC to AC. That's good thinking on your part, Rod, and would certainly be one possible solution for harnessing the steam output of Lloyd Tanner's friction boiler to generate electricity.

Some things to consider in such an application are as follows:
1. TEG's are generally somewhere between 5% and 10% efficient in the heat to electric conversion process. A steam engine would be much more efficient at converting heat to shaft power, and a steam turbine would have an even greater efficiency. The greatest drawback with the steam engine, or turbine, would be the initial cost, and TEG's may be more cost effective initially.
2. A MG set would be more costly, and probably less efficient, than an inverter for converting DC to AC. Were you thinking of using the motor torque of the MG set to not only drive the generator, but also drive the friction hub or roller shaft of the friction boiler? If so, you would have to sacrifice some of the otherwise possible generator output. That would be okay, though, if you can have a self-runner.
3. The cooling part of the equation would appear to be the greatest obstacle. While dry ice and alcohol will work fine for that purpose, you still need to supply and replenish them. And since Lloyd's device produces such a tremendous amount of heat, you would require a very substantial amount of dry ice and alcohol for the cooling.

I thank you for the suggestions, Rod. Perhaps, after giving some further thought to your ideas, you could work out some specifics for implementation and share that with others reading this thread who are interested in adapting Lloyd's friction heater.

Best wishes,

Rick

[rickoff]

Reply to Ron (silversearcher):

I hope to build a small friction boiler and build a small steam engine to run a small generator. Is anyone here building the Green steam engine or does anyone know of a group that may be doing that?
Once I get going I'll report back here with my efforts and pictures.
Thanks, Ron

Hi Ron,

The Green Steam Engine (originally suggested by Tishatang in page 1 of this thread - thanks, Tish!) may be a very good choice. For those not familiar with the design, you can see a video of a small model driving a generator at the following site:
YouTube - steam generator
The company's web address is given at the end of the video. You will notice that, in the video, steam is being wasted to the atmosphere. This would reduce efficiency as shown, but the escaping exhaust steam could just as well be connected to a loop to recycle it to the boiler. You can purchase plans for building a 2 cylinder Green Steam Engine of up to 10 hp (on CD or via e-mail) from the company for $45, and a kit including the CD plus the harder to find parts sells for about $132, including shipping. The plans include 14 drawings plus instructional text and photos. These engines produce good torque even at low rpms, and do seem well suited to adaptations of Lloyd Tanner's friction boiler. The best part of this design is that anyone with moderate mechanical and machining skills can build and assemble one without investing in a lot of expensive equipment, and most of the required parts are standard off-the-shelf items that would be available locally. I highly recommend this design if you plan to utilize steam with Lloyd's device, and are willing and able to build your own engine. This would give good results, and also save a lot of dollars when compared to the cost of a manufactured engine. The required hp rating of your build would be dependent upon what you plan to accomplish with the output shaft power, and would also be limited according to the design of the friction boiler (rotor hub, or roller). The rotor hub design uses 2 pieces of wood, and requires only 1 hp to drive the rotor shaft, while a roller design would accommodate multiple wood pieces (depending on the roller and trough width) and would require additional hp to drive the roller shaft. keep in mind that if you also want to generate electricity, then you should figure in the additional hp required to do so. For example, a 2 to 3 hp engine could drive the rotor hub design while also driving a generator capable of producing 1500 to 2000 watts of electrical power. And while the 2 hp engine may be adequate for doing this, a 3 hp engine could accomplish the same results while running somewhat below capacity. Just keep in mind that hp is dependent on cylinder bore and stroke length, and this in turn determines the amount of steam production required to operate the engine at a particular rpm. So total displacement times rpm equals the necessary steam volume per minute to maintain that rpm level. Also keep in mind that a reciprocating steam engine will probably not rev up much more than 600 rpm, and that you need to drive the rotor hub or roller shaft to about 1800 rpm, so the drive mechanism will need to be constucted for a 1:3 drive ratio. You say that you plan to build a small friction boiler and small steam engine, and that is a good way to start out with this. I would suggest building the friction boiler and steam apparatus first, so that you can test the volume of steam production. Then you will have a good idea of the hp rating that can best be utilized to match the friction boiler's output when operating at a reasonable steam temperature and pressure. It will be great to see some photos of your build progress as this thread progresses, and it will undoubtedly be an impetus for others to follow through with their own builds and experiments.

Thanks for your interest and participation Ron.

Best wishes,

Rick

[rickoff]

Further thoughts on the Green Steam Engine...

Please note that although I stated in my previous post that the Green Steam Engine may be a good candidate for use with Lloyd's friction boiler, and that I highly suggest it be considered, I do not mean to suggest or imply that this is the gold standard in steam engines. It should be pointed out that $45 is a lot to spend for a CD containing some drawings and photos, and evidently some people who have purchased the CD have been disappointed with either the design or the instructions, or both. That said, though, the design does appear to offer a suitable and reasonably low cost alternative to commercially built steam engines. The quality resulting from the build will not only be dependent on the design characteristics, but also upon the abilities and skill of the builder. If you decide to build a Green Steam Engine, it would be wise to have a skilled machinist make up or modify any part requiring a level of precision that you feel would not be possible for you to produce. The most critical factor in the design is to achieve rotational balance. Imperfect balance will result in vibration, which will reduce rpm and efficiency. In the video, you will notice the series of holes drilled in the flywheel. This is done do achieve good balance and counter the hammering oscillations of the pivoting cylinder assemblies and other drive mechanism components, which would otherwise produce an out of balance condition. There are actually two balance factors to contend with, and these are referred to as static (at rest) balance, and dynamic (running) balance. You must first deal with static balance, which is simply balancing the flywheel assembly so that there is no point on the circumference that is heavier than any other point. The heaviest point in the flywheel will be centered at the location where the drive mechanism is attached to the flywheel, and that is where the balance holes must be bored. When good static balance is achieved, you will be able to spin the flywheel and see it come to rest in a different position every time. If it tends to come to rest in, or close to, the same position each time, then it is out of balance. The heaviest point of the flywheel circumference will of course tend to come to rest at the lowest point, or bottom, of the rotation. Dynamic balancing smooths out rotational vibrations that are noticed at the intended operational rpm, and this works similarly to redistributing the weight in an unbalanced washing machine so that the spin cycle can proceed with the least possible vibration. To achieve this, you must experiment by adding weight to a location on the flywheel circumference which you suspect is the lightest point, then retesting for vibration. Your results will determine whether you need to add, subtract, or move the weight elsewhere. It is a painstaking process, but will be well worth the time spent if you are able to reduce vibration to an acceptable minimum. If you have already done a good job at static balancing, then the amount of weight needed for dynamic balance will be relatively small. You can do these tests by using an adhesive backed metal strip such as sold at auto parts stores for tire balancing. Once you find the best location for the weight, and determine the amount of weight that works best, you can either leave the weight in place, or remove it after drilling a small hole in the flywheel at a point 180 degrees opposite the weight that was added. In doing so, you would attempt to remove just enough material from the flywheel to match the weight which you had added.

Above all, don't consider the Green Steam Machine to be a ready to assemble kit. It certainly is not such a kit, and will require skill, craftsmanship, and a good deal of your time to complete a satisfactory build. I just want everyone to be aware of that.

Edit - Oct 18, 2008 - New Information about the Green Steam Engine plans and parts:
In an e-mail that I received today, Robert Green states that, "The plans and parts are for the 10HP version. The rpm's depend on the steam pressure. 3500-to 4000 is typical running a generator of about 5KW at around 100psi."

Best to all,

Rick

[FuzzyTomCat]

To Rick - re: post #44

Hi Rick,

In post #44 I suggested modifying the trough box to accommodate possibly extending the boiler steel at 90 degrees to the wood to increase the heat transfer area possibly by 100%.

Here is a "cut section" sketch of what I was thinking about using 8" seamless black pipe with 3/4" couplings for the steam fittings on a blind flange and 3/8" couplings on the 8" pipe for the drip assembly inside the steam chamber.

This type of assembly could easily accommodate 150 PSI if assembled and welded properly. Then using available pressure rated fittings and devices for the final steam and water drip connections.

Best,
Glen

[rickoff]

Reply to Glen

Hi Glen,

Actually, I think it was post #44 where you first mentioned the idea of extending the steam vessel sides to surround the rotor hub. Thanks for your drawing of the concept. It actually looks very close to what I was describing in post #60, as quoted here: "For example, a heat containment box could be constructed with walls that extend from the steam vessel box to the base of the trough, and would fully enclose the rotating metal hub. Cutouts, just slightly larger than the wood 4 x 4 dimensions, would be made in two sides of the containment box, allowing the wood to feed through the openings, and employing very light pressured scraping blades to restrict nearly all flow of heat into the troughs. With all heat development contained and focused in the center section of the trough, this would seem to produce even more amazing results than has already been demonstrated."

The only differences between your drawing, and what is quoted above, is that I proposed extending the steam vessel box sides all the way to the base of the trough, making the cutouts slightly larger than the wood 4 x 4's, and suggested the use of scraper blades at the openings. I'm just thinking that we might as well seal off as many pathways of heat escape as is possible. Any heat that escapes to the troughs is wasted heat if our aim is to generate steam. With the cutouts made as 4.25" squares, this would leave a 1/8" air space on all sides of the wood to accomodate irregularities. Then mount spring loaded scraper blades to the perimeter of the openings, allowing them to further restrict the openings to a 4" square. The scrapers would contact the sides of the wood piece as it is being fed, but with very light pressure so as not to create any drag. The broad side of each scraper blade would rest against the exterior wall of the box extension, effectively restricting airflow. The leading edge of each scraper should be rounded so as not to bind on rough sawn wood irregularities. Better yet, the scrapers could be made of angle iron with the leading edge bent upwards. Here's a drawing showing the basic cutout and scraper concept:


Note that if installed as depicted, there would be small openings exposed at the ends of the short scrapers whenever the upper and lower scrapers move outwards to accommodate warps, knots, or other surface irregularities. The resultant air loss would be minimal, though, and could even be eliminated by application of a 1/2" by 5" metal overlay on the short scrapers, which would overlap the ends of the longer scrapers. There would definitely be room enough to accommodate the bottom scraper, because Lloyd's design calls for rollers to be placed beneath the wood, which would elevate the wood somewhat above the bottom of the trough.

Just some ideas to consider, and this should at least give you a visual idea of what I am writing about.

Thanks for your drawings, Glen. They are greatly appreciated. Best regards to you,

Rick

[Jetijs]

Hi all :0
My friction cylinder and shaft is ready. Here are some pictures:







The inner diameter of the cylinder is 106mm, outer diameter 113mm. Wall thickness is 4mm. Shaft diameter is 25mm and the shaft is about 200mm long. Now I need to weld together a frame to hold the bearings and I will be ready for testing. I intend to use my 2.5HP treadmill motor to drive the shaft. Will see how this performs.
Thanks,
Jetijs

[Vortex]

Water pump require?

Getting water to flow from the low pressure hopper
into the high pressure reserve is going to require a pump.
Has this been addressed, yet?
Did I miss seeing something already in the design?

A thermofluidic oscillator as a pump should be evaluated.

This pump requires 2 check values and a working fluid, in this case, steam.

It's real simple.

Thermofluidics (Technology)
Video 1
Video 2

A bit less simple to mechanically duplicate in a custom design,
in everyday materials, but that's the fun part?

It's under patent, that's a problem right?

[FuzzyTomCat]

To Rick

Hi Glen,

With the cutouts made as 4.25" squares, this would leave a 1/8" air space on all sides of the wood to accomodate irregularities. Then mount spring loaded scraper blades to the perimeter of the openings, allowing them to further restrict the openings to a 4" square. The scrapers would contact the sides of the wood piece as it is being fed, but with very light pressure so as not to create any drag. The broad side of each scraper blade would rest against the exterior wall of the box extension, effectively restricting airflow. The leading edge of each scraper should be rounded so as not to bind on rough sawn wood irregularities. Better yet, the scrapers could be made of angle iron with the leading edge bent upwards.

Note that if installed as depicted, there would be small openings exposed at the ends of the short scrapers whenever the upper and lower scrapers move outwards to accommodate warps, knots, or other surface irregularities.

Rick

Hi Rick,

When I was thinking about the boiler design and left the sides open as shown it was because of the possibility of the use of non dimensional lumber or wood with three or less sides 1/2" out of square as fire wood is. The scraper idea is a very good one but I'm also really concerned about the vibration and chattering possibility of the wood on the whole machine. When I was looking up some information on some sealing and insulating materials for the wood access doors and boiler assembly on the trough, this is what I found surfin, a really good web site on "Specialty Insulating" products.

Great Lakes Textiles - Manufacturing and Marketing a Broad Range of Insulation Specialties Throughout the World

There are several products of interest that could be used for insulating and the door seals. There was also some products that could be used in place of the scrapers that you suggested is the "Fiberglass Lagging Tape" used like a flapper end cuts at 45 degrees like a picture frame.

http://www.gltproducts.com/products/185-ds.pdf

This comes in 1"-12" wide x 1/32" - 1/4" thick strips , they also make a "Tadpole Tape" that also looks like it may work. (rated at 1000 degrees F) This would stop any scraper vibration issues and provide a good seal around the out of square friction wood that maybe used.

And now a barrier with scrapers or flappers is between the hub or rotor on each side of the trough assembly, I'm thinking maybe of using a 1/2" or 3/4" thick sheet liner of "UHMWPE" on the trough bottom, instead of rollers for the guide and rail assembly the friction wood rides on, because of the reduction of heat transfer inside the trough.

Just some ideas .....

Best,
Glen

[FuzzyTomCat]

Interesting Concept

Hi all :0
My friction cylinder and shaft is ready. Here are some pictures:

Will see how this performs.
Thanks,
Jetijs

Hi Jetijs,

Excellent, I see where your going with this concept and looks "VERY" promising for the added heat transfer and efficiency were all looking for !!

Best,
Glen

[kcwired]

Friction heat source

Just an idea outside of the wooded box.

Ceramic break pads and Rotors are common and designed to radiate heat. May last longer than wood stock.

They are already designed to couple with a drive shaft.

Drawing and Compressing hot air away from friction area should help longevity.

I don't know if this will use more energy than the system makes but you can get a nice focus of the heat by compressing the heat exhaust from the rotor into a heat transfer coil.

Closed system?
Maybe a gas that is ideal for heat transfer (kind of like a heat pump for a typical AC system)

But I guess its Better to keep it simple.

Heat transfer coils and bath ?
Maybe a simple mechanical air pump, to push the hot air down to the bottom of a column of water/oil (casual compression), where it can bubble out and transfer the heat into the water/oil on the way to the top.

This heat transfer bath can boil the water in the closed steam engine tank where pleasure can go wild.

conservation : Circulated the exhaust hot air back through the friction chamber. condense the water etc.

Seems Issac Newton refrigerator would have a home here too, tapping the waste heat.

[theremart]

RE: outside of the box

I also thought of break pads, but.... One must be very careful of the materials they are made of. They can give off some dust that would not be very healthy to breath, that being said, hmm why not bricks or clay... I guess Jet, will be testing this before we think of them

Another thought.... Magnetic fields why not have two opposing coils.... I know motors can heat up very well under load...


I was considering just using my roto-verter and putting it under a light load to heat up a back room. I am thinking since it only draws about 1 amp, this might be an interesting heat source to see how much it can generate.... It does get warm when under load.