Friction Steam Boiler

[byjoveoldchap]

Not a "Joe the Plumber" type of project though.

Not a "Joe the Plumber" type of project though.

There isn't anyway I could build one. The Cost, no machine shop, lack of
knowledge which are the same things that would prevent all but a select
few from trying to build one .. and fewer than that would do it correctly.
Randy

I wish you sucess Vortex

maybe you can find some ideas here?

Ch4 ?
and please consider if you could use the Pendulum in any way?

"...his two-stage pendulum/lever system shows a COP = 12 output of excess energy"

By Jove!

[rickoff]

"The cylinders rotate, and the crankshaft is fixed".
~ WHAT...???
~ How on earth do you balance a motor like that? ~ "The cylinders rotate.."
I'm amazed if that is true!

It is true, actually. The steam engine referred to, though, was built as a desktop curiosity, and was never meant to do any work. That was pointed out in an earlier post, which you seem to have missed. Actually, I would advise that you go back to the beginning of this thread and read through all the posts if you are interested in Lloyd's device. Everything will become much clearer to you that way.

I have not witnessed this in operation, but it seems to me that the wood hardness is not really what is doing the work here.

The hardness is an important factor in the operation of Lloyd's device. Here again, this has been pointed out in earlier posts. Lloyd experimented with different woods, of course, to find what produced the best results, and that came from using green, unseasoned hardwood. A loading of hardwood will last far longer than softwood, and create better friction. Softwood fibers give too easily. Also, since softwood is far less dense, it will tend to dry up very quickly behind the friction point, and will then ignite.

I thought you may be interested to know that the Cavitation Heater idea was developed from simply observing the common 'water-hammer' effect that sometimes occurs in pipework. Quite amazing, eh?

I'm already well aware of the hydrosonic pump. The subject of the Griggs pump is one that has already been thoroughly noted by me in post #60 of this thread. If you read that, I think you will agree that the Griggs pump is not the way to go.

PLEASE NOTE: I have been through all these posts here for the first time tonight and I have serious reservations with the idea that this is, or could be a self-running device.

Well, you probably won't want to read any more about it then. But Lloyd does believe that his device is capable of being self sustaining, and several knowledgeable people who have witnessed its operation agree with his findings - including the engineering department at a nearby college.

I believe this idea of Lloyd Tanner has excellent potential, but in only a few pages, on this forum, it has turned into a device that is becoming unbelievable.

No, there is nothing about it that is unbelievable. Just by looking at the design, and understanding why this method is so superior to burning fuel, one would have to confess that Lloyd's device - although relatively crude - is very effective at producing heat. Consider that it would take 20 pounds of hardwood per hour, if burned, to produce enough steam to operate a 3 hp steam engine. In Lloyd's device, two 10-pound oak 4x4's will last 36 hours while producing enough steam to run the same engine. The difference, you must admit, is truly amazing, and it should better help you to understand how Lloyd's device could be used as a self runner.

Here are some of the problems I see with this idea as it is being promoted... "The bottom of the steam vessel box is situated 1/4 inch above the spinning metal hub".

• With a fast spinning rotor or hub, I simply cannot understand how the heat from the 4" hub? will rise upwards, move across a quarter inch gap and still have enough heat energy to transfer that heat to a large metal steam enclosure, sufficiently to boil water droplets instantly on the inside.

There's no mystery here. The friction creates large amounts of heat, and the heat does rise and heats up the steam vessel. The steam vessel does not have to be a large device, and you can see in the video (referred to in post #1) that in fact it is not a large device. The object is not to boil water or water droplets, but rather to explode them into steam. Please read my previous post, which makes this technique, and the effectiveness of it, very clear.

"A pressure gauge should be mounted on the steam vessel"

• the Steam vessel is, or should be thought of as a boiler.We have all seen pictures illustrating steam boilers. They are very large and are designed to store a vast quantity of steam under extreme pressure, very similar to an air-compressor cylinder or tank.

No, for the reason I just stated, which is summarized in my previous post, you should not think of Lloyd's steam vessel as a boiler. If you use too nuch water in the vessel, then it will become a boiler, but the intention is to avoid that.

"steam is then delivered to a steam engine input port..."

• A steam engine, (of a size necessary to turn a generator and thus provide the electricity to run the electric motor), requires a vast amount of steam under very high pressure. I believe the 'steam vessel' which is focused upon, would not store, or generate enough steam to warm the engine from cold.

• Your opinion may be wrong. Lloyd has produced sustained steam temperatures of 565 degrees Farenheit at ample volumes to operate a steam engine. The warmup period won't take long, especially if operating a steam engine that begins turning at less than 20 psi.

"He says he used a 1 horsepower, 110 volt AC motor "[list]

A 1 hp motor requires about 746 watts. Now just think about the heat produced by Lloyd's device, and then compare that with the heat produced by a handheld hair dryer using twice the wattage. Believe me, you won't want to hold your head as close to the friction rotor as you would dare to with the hair dryer! Certainly there is friction, and there is also some amount of drag involved. The drag does appear to be minimal, though, and much less than you would imagine. Lloyd used a 1 hp motor for all his demonstrations of the device, including the video, and very little pressure was needed to produce the desired results.

My final thoughts: It is very exciting to hear of a new idea that we think could be easily replicated and I believe the excitement has run away with common sense here. There is nothing wrong with having BIG ideas and our imagination is a wonderful device that inspires us to create better things and solve problems which at times can seem impossible. This is a great idea from Lloyd , but as he says himself, it is simply a friction heater and not a self-running system!

Actually, Lloyd was very clear to me in pointing out the effectiveness of his device, and its ability to be a "self-runner." He used those very words, in fact. While he has not yet demonstrated an actual self-runner, I think he's on the right track - especially with the new friction roller design that he is currently building. I would be happy, though, to build the device demonstrated in the video and simply use it to heat my home efficiently. My primary goal is to reduce energy costs and pollution, and I do believe that Lloyd's device could help substantially in achieving that goal.

[quote=byjoveoldchap;33269]

Jetijs transfer of heat method seems much more plausible.

That is possible, of course. Only time will tell. Jetijs is experimenting with a Friction Heater design which was discussed earlier in this thread. If you are interested in that, I gave a link for the pdf file with the construction plans. It may or may not improve heat transfer to the steam vessel, but is certainly worth investigating. It does complicate the build, though, and unless one builds Lloyd's device in its original form first, there is no way to know if the oil transfer improves the efficiency. And Lloyd's device is already quite efficient at producing heat and steam.

I also wonder what pressure is suggested?

That all depends upon the requirements of the steam engine. Lloyd did test his device up to 565 degrees steam temperature, and that would equate to 314 degrees Centigrade, and a pressure of more than 14 atmospheres, or bars (1 bar= 14.7 psi, 14 atmosperes, or 14 x14.7 = 205.8 psi. That was only for test purposes, mind you, and you certainly wouldn't need anywhere near that much pressure to operate a useful steam engine or steam turbine.

"similar to a DC Motor set of brushes running on a commutator,"

~ snap!

Yes, very much so, as I said earlier to Glen.

Last words:
I congratulate everyone who submits and shares ideas to better mankind and I hope my remarks do not offend, or stop anyone from trying!

No offense taken, byjove, and none meant. All are welcome here. Please read the following, though, concerning future posts:

For others who may be interested in posting their thoughts, please let's try to stay on topic here. If interested in technology not centered on Lloyd Tanner's device, please search the forums (using a key word or two) for related discussions, and start a new thread only if your topic can not be found with the search feature. Also, please try to keep your posts simple and to the point. Answering a long post, having multiple questions or assertions, can require a great deal of time, and certainly more than I have available. More importantly, please take time to read the prior posts, as that will answer most of the relevant questions that may arise. And above all, please don't submit posts that are mainly argumentative or skeptical in nature. If anyone does that, I will not waste my time answering them. I prefer to spend my time assisting those who want to learn, as well as furthering along my own projects. Lloyd's device works, and is very effective. Other than Lloyd's drip system for creating steam, the remaining principles involved are ages old. Lloyd simply rediscovered how effective friction is at creating heat, and applied this heat as useful energy. He has been very kind and generous in sharing his technology and design with us, and I appreciate that very much. I never said, or meant to imply, that Lloyd's device is the perfect answer to all energy needs. It is, however, a useful and timely device which offers many good interim solutions to energy needs while we continue the quest for improved and simplified devices ,and energy independence.

Best wishes to everyone,

Rick

[rickoff]

New drawing

Hi folks,

Sorry I am getting this posted a bit later than I had originally planned to. I spent more time on my last reply than I should have, and I really must cut back on replies somewhat in order to proceed with drawings and projects.

Glen: I understand what you said about the idea of using irregular shapes and sizes of wood, and how you took that into consideration in your drawing. That makes a lot of sense if you figure on using irregular wood shapes. That being said, though, the full dimension 4x4's will produce the best possible results, as the exposed friction area will always remain at maximum once the curvature of the rotor is matched by the wood.

Here is a drawing that shows a method of putting together the main working parts of a friction heating steamer. I think this will help people to visualize what actually occurs in the device. This design is similar to Lloyd's original concept, except for these changes:
1.The steam vessel box is shown as being comprised of two sections - upper and lower, and can be completely disassembled.
2. All four sides of the steam vessel box extend fully to the bottom of the trough.
3.The double flange design of the steam vessel allows for the trough covers to be fully raised and lowered without removing the steam vessel, and provides a closed contact point for the covers.
4. Cutouts are provided on two sides of the steam vessel box extensions to allow passage of the wood 4x4's, and spring loaded scrapers surround these cutouts to further help prevent heat loss to the trough areas beyond the vessel box extensions.
5. Aside from the two continuous welds around the perimeter of the vessel box flanges, all materials are fastened by socket head, flat head , or set screws, as indicated in the cutaway view.
6. I'm really not sure how Lloyd handled the problem of heat buildup at the upper shaft bearing, but my drawing shows one possible solution - a spiral grooved bronze bearing is fed a constantly freshened supply of lubricant being pumped through a radiator circuit to remove heat. The lower end of the bronze bearing rides against a lubricated bronze thrust plate bearing. Note that the lubricant line passes beneath the electric motor, and not through it. Except for the electric motor and the steam valve, nearly everything is depicted as being a cutaway view.
7. I don't know how Lloyd arranged the drip system in his original prototype, as seen in the video, but in his drawings of the newer friction roller design the drip tube, or tubes, are suspended inside the steam vessel without being affixed to anything. In my drawing, the water inlet pipe connects to a drip rail, which then feeds a number of drip tubes. The tube ends are set slightly into the sides of the steam vessel for rigidity. While the drawing shows the water feed pipe and drip rail off to the right side of the vessel box, I only did it that way to make the illustration easier. In actual construction, the water inlet and drip rail should be at the center of the steam vessel box.

Here it is:



Regarding the unlabeled parts below the friction rotor assembly:
The device directly below the rotor's bottom plate is a shaft collar, which is fastened to the plate and also has setscrews that grip the shaft. The light colored object beneath the shaft collar, and the two other light colored objects below that one, are solid teflon seals which fit closely to the shaft, but allow free rotation. A flexible type of seal is shown below the third teflon seal, and is enclosed by an endcap at the bottom of the upper bearing and seal assembly.

Note that the radiator should be moved to a location further away from the rotor shaft, and is only shown this way for illustrative purposes. If left in a similar position, though, note that the drive belt could be extended to operate a radiator blower fan to speed up heat extraction and move the heat away from the underside of the unit. Another option would be to build the radiator into the water hopper so that the heat is dissipated efficiently. This also has the advantage of helping to preheat the water in the hopper. If you would like to view any of the parts in close-up mode, you may download the bitmapped image at the following site: http://ckta4q.blu.livefilestore.com/...20sideview.bmp The downloaded file may be viewed in clean detail at up to 800% zoom, with no loss of quality, and will help to clarify some areas that are otherwise not so easily discerned as shown in this post.

Thanks for your continued interest in this thread. I hope this drawing will prove helpful to some of you.

Best regards to all,

Rick

[Dude_]

Here is a drawing that shows a method of putting together the main working parts of a friction heating steamer. I think this will help people to visualize what actually occurs in the device.

[...]

Thanks for your continued interest in this thread. I hope this drawing will prove helpful to some of you.

Best regards to all,

Rick

Thank you so much Rick for your hard work. The drawing is just awesome and does help visualize the system. That must have taken a long time to put together and I want you to know it is VERY much appreciated.

I just found this site about a week ago and I am in awe of your diligence in this effort.

Thank you again,

Darren

[Jetijs]

Well, I tried to connect the motor with the boiler shaft using pulleys, but there is still a big bearing heat problem. I am out of ideas about what the problem could be, probably the bearings are indeed bad. Anyway, I will try a different approach, I will look for something that already has most of the parts needed, for example a saw table where the motor is already coupled with the rotary blade axis, this way I will only need to attach the steam cylinder instead of the sawblade on the axis and off we go. My current setup is a heater already, its just that the heat comes from bearings
Thanks,
Jetijs

[rickoff]

Reply to Darren (Dude):

Hi Darren,

Thanks for your kind words. Yes, it did take quite a bit of time to piece that drawing together. I did it freehand in MSpaint, and didn't sketch anything beforehand, so it's just off the top of my head, so to speak. Nothing is necessarily drawn to scale, as I didn't measure things out. I simply drew the lines where they appeared to be about right. It's just a visualization of how I would put the pieces together in a build based upon Lloyd's prototype, in a way that makes good sense to me. Others may have different ideas for construction or optimization that are equally as good, or perhaps even better. Glen (Fuzzy Tom Cat) has contributed some nice sketches showing another possible design variation, and of course it is Glen who we should thank for starting this thread and bringing Lloyd's device to our attention. Also, many thanks to Lloyd for sharing his knowledge and experience with us, and for providing the sketches showing his newer friction roller design, which is currently under construction.

Best wishes to you Darren,

Rick

[rickoff]

Reply to Jetijs:

Hi Jetijs,

Thanks for keeping us posted on developments. It was interesting to hear that you are planning to use a motor from a treadmill. I was at the local recycling center (we used to call it the "dump") a few weeks ago, and saw that someone had just dropped off a treadmill that looked fairly new. It had a good looking DC motor that didn't appear to be damaged, so I yanked that off and brought it home, thinking it might come in handy. I also salvaged the AC motor control unit, but that doesn't function and was no doubt the reason that the treadmill was scrapped. The manufacturer's spec plate doesn't mention the correct voltage, but I hooked it up to a 12 volt battery and it spun up to a little over 600 rpm. If I remember correctly, it is rated for 1.75 hp continuous duty, which should be enough to do the job adequately if I can get the rotor shaft rpm up to speed. The motor has a nice flywheel built in to the output shaft, and that should prove beneficial. I love to pick up items like this for free that others are throwing away.


Best regards,

Rick

[rickoff]

Reply to Randy (Vortex)

Another device kinda like an injector, is able to create 22 hydraulic hp in water being less than 8" long x 3" diameter. Same company that designed the micrometer droplets, so I will assume at 6 bar = 87 psi. Unknown what gallons/min to psi ratio made up that 22 hp. If we create just 6 hp and get 80% work out of a water turbine, would that not be
enough to run a 1 hp electric motor to turn the friction device?

How can one create working steam, say 87 psi without the friction device
and without a full-blown boiler setup, for 2-3 second test runs
to test prototypes these devices?

Hi Randy,

Yes, the above idea does appear to be an effective one. You could do some tests at a lower pressure by adapting a pressure cooker. Common ones normally operate at about 15 psi and 257 F degrees, but some models go to twice that pressure. Some also come with a built in pressure gauge. You could try pushing the pressure a bit, by adding a little more weight to the steam rocker, and if you exceed the design pressure then a safety poppet will blow out and release the overpressure, so it's a relatively safe way to experiment with steam. Obviously, one should NEVER open the cover of a pressure cooker until it has been cooled sufficiently to release all pressure. To do that, take the cooker off the heat source and slowly spray some water over the pot and lid surfaces until the poppet valve falls down on its own weight. I'm sure that you understand these precautions, Randy, and only mention them to help keep all readers and experimenters safe.

I would suggest that you start a new thread, as Jetijs did with the oil filled cylinder, to talk about methods that substantially deviate from Lloyd's design. Your suggested methods have merit, and are worthy of investigation, but posting them in a separate thread during developmental stages will help to avoid reader confusion here. Feel free to make another post here showing a link to the new thread, and a brief description of what readers can expect to find there.

Thanks, and best wishes to you,

Rick

[byjoveoldchap]

I hope this drawing will prove helpful

I hope this drawing will prove helpful to some of you.

Rick

Superb illustration Rickoff, my hat is off to YOU!

My current setup is a heater already, its just that the heat comes from bearings

Jetijs

I just love a comedian, especially one who is able to laugh at himself.
Great spirit Jetijs

[ashtweth]

What an effort Rick

First thing i would do is us an RV for at least a 94% PF for 1HP. You could easily reach that with the RV prime mover

[rickoff]

Reply to Ash,

What an effort Rick

First thing I would do is use an RV for at least a 94% PF for 1HP. You could easily reach that with the RV prime mover

Hi Ash,

Yes, that's a very good suggestion. The only reason why I labeled the motor, in the diagram of post #93, as a 1 hp induction motor is because that is what Lloyd used for his prototype. The RotoVerter (RV) would be an excellent candidate for driving the rotor shaft during startup, or even as the sole drive method for a non-steam application such as hot air or hot water heating. For those not familiar with the RotoVerter, it is basically a modified induction motor that is made to operate at a lower amperage draw than a common induction motor (typically 1/4 the amperage), and of course that results in energy savings. To do that, you need to start with a higher horsepower motor. For example, a 7.5 hp induction motor will yield about 1.8 horsepower as a RotoVerter, and that would be perfect for driving Lloyd's device. To learn more about the RotoVerter modifications, go here:
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/RV.pdf

To see a RotoVerter video demonstration done by Ash, go here:
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/RV.pdf

Thanks again, Ash, and best wishes to you,

Rick

[rsc]

White automobile.

Rickoff ,

Look at the White Automobile. it is a steam engine car.

If also has a condenser to recapture the water.

Rod

[rickoff]

Reply to Rod (rsc):

Hi Rod,

Yes, that was quite a car. White made about 10,000 of these between 1900 and 1910. There are still about 150 of the cars in operating condition. It was a great car, but they finally gave up on it because so many people were going for gasoline fueled cars (which sold for about 1/5 to 1/8 the cost of a steam car), and of course the petrol companies fanned the flames of enthusiasm for that with big bucks. I remember seeing a White "Touring Car" model at a museum, and marveled at it. Using four or five heating coils to produce multi-stage superheated steam, along with an efficient condenser, made it very smooth running, powerful, and reliable.

I can't remember for certain where the museum was, but it may well have been at the Owl's Head Transportation Museum here in Maine. There is a Stanley steamer car at the Maine state museum in Augusta, and that was quite interesting to see also, especially since the Stanley brothers were from Kingfield, Maine. There is a Stanley Museum in Kingfield with some great exhibits.
Stanley Museum in Kingfield, Maine
Between 1902 and 1917 the Stanley Steamer outsold every gasoline powered vehicle. I understand that Jay Leno owns a Stanley Steamer, and that he actually drives it to work! The 1903 Stanley "Rocket" car broke the world land speed record at Daytona Beach.

A newer version topped that in 1906 by doing a mile in 28.2 seconds, but a retry in 1907 resulted in a wreck.

Are you thinking of the possibility of operating a vehicle using a steam engine powered by Lloyd's friction device? It would no doubt be quite possible if set up in the bed of a pickup truck and used in a warm climate, but I wouldn't recommend it for that use. An electric conversion would be far simpler to do.

Best regards, Rick

[Alana]

Lloyds friction heater

Hi all,

the report about the steam car was great! Thanks for the information. It would be a great goal if it would be possible. The machines are well known. The key seems to be to get enought heat. Wouldn't be the Hero's steamball be a better way to get motion of a car? It seems to be very easy!

How much amount of steam (and water) would be necessary? I think Lloyds friction heater could be very helpful (but could it generate) enought heat?

AlanA

[rsc]

Hi all,

the report about the steam car was great! Thanks for the information. It would be a great goal if it would be possible. The machines are well known. The key seems to be to get enought heat. Wouldn't be the Hero's steamball be a better way to get motion of a car? It seems to be very easy!

How much amount of steam (and water) would be necessary? I think Lloyds friction heater could be very helpful (but could it generate) enought heat?

AlanA

Just a little heat not much to create electricity to turn DC motor to push car forward.


Rickoff,

Very nice drawing. Well done Sir.

No auto in my sights...would be nice to try!

I was just thinking outloud maybe.... Create heat to get steam or no steam to go through pipes in a maze configuration. Use small pump for the cooling (DRY ICE AND ALCOHOL). Yes, Not to efficient, but it will work using TEC's or TEG's.

Using everything you can if it is for free.

Low rpm and high torque motor could spin the the spinner through gears yes.

Yes, it could be self runner easy...

Just keep it simple!
Rod