Friction Steam Boiler

[Dude_]

Well, I tried to connect the motor with the boiler shaft using pulleys, but there is still a big bearing heat problem. I am out of ideas about what the problem could be, probably the bearings are indeed bad. Anyway, I will try a different approach, I will look for something that already has most of the parts needed, for example a saw table where the motor is already coupled with the rotary blade axis, this way I will only need to attach the steam cylinder instead of the sawblade on the axis and off we go. My current setup is a heater already, its just that the heat comes from bearings
Thanks,
Jetijs

Any progress on this Jetijs?

Rick, have you talked to Lloyd about the bearing heat issue? What is Lloyd doing to prevent or circumvent it?

Thanks to all involved in this project!

take care,
Darren

[rickoff]

Hi all,

the report about the steam car was great! Thanks for the information. It would be a great goal if it would be possible. The machines are well known. The key seems to be to get enought heat. Wouldn't be the Hero's steamball be a better way to get motion of a car? It seems to be very easy!

How much amount of steam (and water) would be necessary? I think Lloyds friction heater could be very helpful (but could it generate) enought heat?

AlanA

Hi Alana,

Glad you enjoyed the info about the steam cars. Lloyd's device can produce all the heat you would need, provided you have room to accommodate the device. Unfortunately, that isn't likely, and it is why I wouldn't suggest such a conversion. You could, of course, construct the device much smaller by using a short trough with short pieces of wood, but to operate a steam engine having enough power to propel a car at highway speeds, and up hills, would require about 40 horsepower. You could do that with Lloyd's device, but you would have to use the friction roller design, which allows loading several pieces of wood at once, thus multiplying the total heat and steam capacity. For a stationary engine that would be great, but I can't see it happening under the hood of an automobile.

I think you meant Heron when you mentioned "Hero's steam ball."
Smith College Museum of Ancient Inventions: Heron's Steam Engine
That is a very simple motive device powered by steam, but in its original form it is not very efficient, seeing as the steam is released to the atmosphere as a propulsion jet. To maintain a higher efficiency, it is necessary to recycle the condensed steam through a loop so that the hot water can be reused over and over.

Thanks for your interest in our thread, and for your participation,

Rick

[rickoff]

Reply to Rod (rsc):

Rickoff,

Very nice drawing. Well done Sir.

No auto in my sights...would be nice to try!

Rod

Thanks, Rod. I'm glad that folks have found the drawing to be interesting and informative.

As far as automobile conversions go, I really think that an electric motor coupled to a magnetic motor-generator is the way to go. That's what I plan to do with my pickup truck when the engine starts giving out. It has over 220,000 miles on it now, so maybe it will be a near-future endeavor!

Best wishes to you,

Rick

[rickoff]

Reply to Darren (Dude):

Rick, have you talked to Lloyd about the bearing heat issue? What is Lloyd doing to prevent or circumvent it?

Thanks to all involved in this project!

take care,
Darren

Hi Darren,

In my phone conversations with Lloyd, I was trying to use that time to focus on the most important aspects of his build. Lloyd didn't say anything about what he did to prevent bearing overheating. I will ask him about that, though. Obviously, since the rotor gets very hot, some of that heat will dissipate into the rotor shaft. Since heat wants to rise, though, it may not be as much of a problem as you might tend to think. In any case, to reduce any such heat accumulation at the upper bearing, and to halt further heat procession down the shaft, I allowed for the use of an oil cooling system in the drawing which I posted (see post #93). Note that you could optionally route the oil cooling loop so that the radiator passes through the water hopper, which would do a nice job of cooling the oil while at the same time helping to preheat the water. No need to waste that heat from the radiator to the atmosphere, but of course that would also be fine if you want additional heat in the room where the friction heater is installed.

Lloyd's device would be somewhat less useful during summer months, when you don't need heating, but would still provide an efficient means of generating electricity and domestic hot water, which everyone needs year round.


Best regards to you,

Rick

[Alana]

Hi everybody,

I think Lloyds friction heater is a great thing. Thank you everybody for sharing your thoughts, especially Rick. Rick explained Lloyds friction heater for everybody very clear. And anyone who can read know how it works.
So it's our turn.

I learned that Lloyds heater can heat water and can also heat air.

Nevertheless I have some questions.
1. Rick said that "pure steam occupies about 1600 times the volume of the mass of water". Where do you get this information? I didn't hear that ever?

2. As it is very efficient to vaporise water to steam this means that it doesn't make sence to heat air with Lloyds device.

I know Lloyd haven't done some measurements. But it would be very useful. It would help to compare with other devices.

Best wishes to all
AlanA

P. S. I think think Heron's steam ball could be useful (only for propulsion). Certainly someone must find a way to recyle the steam vapor. Why not put the whole device in a container?

[rickoff]

Reply to AlanA:

Hi everybody,
I learned that Lloyds heater can heat water and can also heat air.
Nevertheless I have some questions.
1. Rick said that "pure steam occupies about 1600 times the volume of the mass of water". Where do you get this information? I didn't hear that ever?
2. As it is very efficient to vaporise water to steam this means that it doesn't make sence to heat air with Lloyds device.

I know Lloyd haven't done some measurements. But it would be very useful. It would help to compare with other devices.

I think think Heron's steam ball could be useful (only for propulsion). Certainly someone must find a way to recyle the steam vapor. Why not put the whole device in a container?

Hi AlanA,

Some answers for you:
1. You can read about that, and many other properties of steam, at Steam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2. It does make sense to simply heat air with Lloyd's device if you have a forced hot air heating system in your home. This would be the simplest way to implement the device, and it would be less expensive to use than an oil burner. Keep in mind that you could easily add a copper coil to heat your domestic hot water too, without need of creating steam. Everyone needs hot water, so why not get that along with the hot air? The more that you can utilize Lloyd's device to fit your needs, the more money you will save on energy costs. One might even utilize the heat from Lloyd's device to run a sizeable Stirling Engine. For information about that, start here: Stirling engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia You can also find many examples of Stirling engines in YouTube videos.

Yes, it would be nice to have some more measurements from Lloyd, but that may never happen. As I stated earlier, he was talking about turning his ideas over to some person or group for further development, and several such persons and groups had already contacted him with proposals. So I think we were very lucky to learn all that we did before the project fell into other hands.

Yes, Heron's steam ball could be fully enclosed in a large container to allow for condensation and recycling of steam. It would be more efficient, though, if the jets were made stationary and positioned to force steam against a bladed wheel to propel the wheel, such as in many impulse turbine designs using high pressure steam. Heron's device can be likened to a reaction turbine, which is really only suited to operate at low pressures. Some turbines are multi stage units that incorporate both reaction and impulse designs.

I hope this has helped to answer your questions.

Best wishes to you,

Rick

[rickoff]

A new note from LLoyd Tanner

Hi folks,

I just received this new note from Lloyd:
---------------------------------------------------
From: LKTanner
Sent:Sun 11/09/08 1:20 PM
Hi Rick - Great to hear from you again. We've had a few set backs here - my youngest son passed away suddenly and my wife recently had a total knee replacement - so some things have had to take the back burner as you might imagine.

I sure appreciate you letting me know about the 5,000 views by people in the Renewable Energy discussion at EnergeticForum.com.

As for the newer unit - I am going to build one but the Energy Commissioner David Rogers has sent me information about how to obtain a grant to continue this project. The funds are depleted for 2008, however, we are going to get into the pool for 2009. I have been in contact with the Engineering Department at our local university, Rowan University in Glassboro, NJ. They have a new tech park next to the college and they work in conjunction with the university to help local inventors to develop new ideas. They are very excited about this idea and so is the energy commissioner.

Also, thank you for the info on the Green Steam Engine - looks like just exactly what I need.

Your question regarding the heat buildup at the upper rotor shaft bearing - the rotor [upper shaft bearing] is at the bottom [underside of trough] on mine as you thought. Your drawing is awesome!!
The oil cooling circuit for the upper bearing is exactly what I was thinking about although I never did it on mine because my unit is just to show friction making steam to prove that it would produce plenty of steam pressure.

I am sending you a few photographs showing my pressure vessel and how it straddles the friction wheel so that three surfaces get heated.

I have a couple of questions for you regarding the Green Steam Engine. In your opinion, do you think it would be durable enough to turn my roller? Do you think it would hold up to running all day long because it looks so delicate? If I just make a model with it - I guess it would hold up.

Take care and looking forward to hearing from you again.

Lloyd L. Tanner
----------------------------------------------------------------

The photos that Lloyd mentioned are being sent via US Mail, so I should have them in a few days and will post them as soon as they come in.

Best regards to all,

Rick

[Tishatang]

Rick and All,

I could be wrong, but I don't think cooling will be a problem. In race cars, the brake discs glow red hot. True they have a high speed air stream for cooling, but they must be using some kind of high temp lube to withstand that abuse. We are not getting near the temp for something to glow red hot. Find out what race cars use for bearings and lube.

Just an idea.

Tishatang

[Dude_]

.....Note that you could optionally route the oil cooling loop so that the radiator passes through the water hopper, which would do a nice job of cooling the oil while at the same time helping to preheat the water. ..............

Brilliant idea!

Thanks again Rick for all your hard work on getting the information out there.

[rickoff]

Reply to Tishatang:

Rick and All,

Find out what race cars use for bearings and lube.

Here's one such lubricant: http://www.aerospacelubricants.com/f...ets/t-9tds.pdf
This is good for operation up to 600 degrees F. You can bet that the carbon-carbon brake rotors of a Formula 1 race car get quite a bit hotter than that, but efficiently directed high speed airflow, as you say, helps to dissipate the heat quickly. The center of each brake rotor is constructed with vanes that fan out the heated air, and high-tech heat deflection shields are employed (which are also cooled by airflow) to keep excessive heat away from the bearings, and the hydraulics. In Lloyd's device, there are no such devices employed. Obviously you could work out a way of cooling the rotor, and thus keep the shaft and upper bearing cooler, but in Lloyd's device you want the rotor to heat up as much as possible.

Yes, some good bearings will probably hold up okay for a reasonable amount of time when using a high quality synthetic lubricant like the above. The lubricant, and the bearing, will definitely get quite hot, though, so why not circulate that heat up to the water hopper to preheat the water and cool the bearing lubricant? That's a win-win scenario. And a cool running bearing will far outlast a hot one. Race car wheel bearings are changed over frequently to help avoid problems. The owners don't fret over the costs incurred, because the race car sponsors are the ones actually paying for the parts replacements. But who, I ask, will pay to replace our bearings? Something to think about.

Thanks for your input, Tish, you are always welcome here.

Best regards,

Rick

[Vortex]

Auto Ignition Temperatures
Fuels and Chemicals - Auto Ignition Temperatures
Auto Ignition Temperature for Wood is 572 F degrees.

Is the rotor going to be allowed to exceed this temperature?
Needs a Do Not Open Box Fire Warning Light if too hot
Just another safety issue to think about.

What is going to be used to compress the wood against the rotor?
How does Lloyd force the wood against the rotor?
How often does this have to be adjusted?

Randy

[rickoff]

Reply to Randy (Vortex):

Auto Ignition Temperature for Wood is 572 F degrees. Is the rotor going to be allowed to exceed this temperature?
Needs a Do Not Open Box Fire Warning Light if too hot
Just another safety issue to think about.

What is going to be used to compress the wood against the rotor?
How does Lloyd force the wood against the rotor?
How often does this have to be adjusted?
Randy

Hi Randy,

The chart you linked to doesn't mention what type of wood will self ignite at 572 degrees. You can rub two dry sticks of wood together and eventually they will combust, but have you ever tried doing this with green wood? It takes a lot more to get it going. Lloyd has operated his device to obtain 565 degrees steam temperature, and I would imagine the rotor was at least that hot. The friction face of the wood does get hot, and it will start to char. Occasionally there may even be a small puff of smoke, but the green wood will not sponaneously combust simply from heat at one end. The trough covers should be nearly airtight, and you are right - they shouldn't be opened while the device is at maximum heat range. You don't want to completely block all airflow, as some is oviously required, but you do want to limit it as much as is reasonably possible.

See post #32 for information about the wood feed system. Lloyd said that the two hunks of wood as used in the video (about 4"x4"x16") will last continuously for 3 days before reloading. So A 24" long piece would last from 4.5 to 5 days. The force against the wood remains constant at 10 lbs force, so never needs adjustment.

Thanks for your comments and questions,

Best wishes to you,

Rick

[Alana]

Motor for replication

Hi everybody,

even though I don't have a workshop in my backyard I am thinking about a replication of Lloyds device.
I think the first hurdle could be the motor. I just have found out that a my drilling machine (and I think most of the drilling machines) have a performance of 750 watts and 2000 rpm. Why don't try it with a drilling machine? Of course: Be very carefull. If someone place the drilling machine direct under the device no water should enter the machine.

Best wishes
AlanA

[Tishatang]

Just use air

Hi Rick and All,

I was thinking about just a hot air machine. My oil heater burns oil just to create the hot air for heating my house. Why not make a friction heater using a modern brake disc and half shaft to create hot air?. The drive motor could have a centrifugal blower on it or a separate fan could direct air over the rotor and exit into the room for hot air heat. No need to worry about water for steam, just something to heat your house.

Output could be controlled by gear reduction V belts to the half shaft and the speed of the cooling fan. It would also have the advantage of not having the ends of the wood "burn in" to mate with the radius of the drum. The ends of the wood would just be opposite each other in place of brake pads. Just use the standard automotive bearing setup of the rotor, bearing heat cooled by the air flow. Not extra air tight container needed. Would probably be quieter in operation too? Would not know if adds too much odor of hot wood into the air until you built it. My wood stove adds a lot of wood burning smell into the air, but it is acceptable.

Just trying to keep it simple.

Tishatang

[rickoff]

Reply to AlanA:

Hi everybody,
I just have found out that a my drilling machine (and I think most of the drilling machines) have a performance of 750 watts and 2000 rpm. Why don't try it with a drilling machine?
AlanA

Yes, that should work okay. Sounds like a 1 hp motor. By "drilling machine," are you referring to a drill press, or a hand held drill?

Rick